Garbage can lid size group at 15 yards......sorry couldn't resist.:sorry:

 

The standard I've heard for the past few years for a trad bow (no, I won't even try to define it) has been a 240 on the NFAA's Indoor 300 Round. That's the blue & white 40 cm target at 20 yards, 60 arrows shot in 12 five arrow ends.

Dave

 

Ok walkback practice today with Longbow and woodies at Fita target face starting at 10 yards shoot every 5 yards and finish at 70y, best end all in Gold\Red and 3 arrows just out the Red in the Blue, worst end most in Gold\red with 3 wild shots but all stayed within the black.

and a 250 on the 300 round on Tuesday night

 

Sorry again about previous post but there are so many folks that when they shoot that good think they are ready to go hunting. I am a bowhunter and a target shooter so I look at things differently than some do. I feel a bowhunter has to have an accuracy requirement greater than that of a target shooter. That's right greater than a target shooter. Why? Because if you respect the animals that you hunt you require yourself to make the cleanest most humane kill you can on that animal. In target shooting if we mess up and hit a deer target in the butt, we chuckle about the centerpunch 5 we shot and go on. In the hunting world that same shot on a live deer usually results in a wounded deer. Yes I know there are arteries in the hind quarter that when severed will kill the deer graveyard dead but we should not be counting on luck.

My main set up for target is a Hoyt Matrix, GK Arrow Trac rest and cartel plunger, Easton Lightspeed 500's and a 12" AEP stabilizer. My hunting setup this last season was a Rick Welch Dakota Hunter off the shelf with 3555 GT Traditional and Muzzy 125. I am in the process of getting the Dakota ready to shoot some IBO tournaments these summer. The only difference in the setup will be I will shooting Victory 600's and a lighter field point.

I probably shoot the Hoyt a little better but probably not more than 10 points on a 40 target shoot.

 

Foamkiller, no problem with the previous post, a little humor is good for all of us. I am a hunter and agree that one can't be too accurate.

That's why I posted this. I want to know what group size is attainable at various yardages, especially hunting yardages. I know that there are some exellent shooters on this forum and want to know what a stickbow is cabable of.

That way, I can compare my progress to some very high standards and believe this will make me a better hunter.

So, what I'm looking for is, what size groups should I be able to shoot at 20-25-and 30 yards. 3", 4", or ???

Toby

 

"My grandfather said when I was 12yrs old, "If you can get a robin hood, you are lucky. If you can shoot groups then you are an archer. If you can 'place' an arrow beside another one, so that you don't risk a ricochet, that would widen the group or wreck an arrow,...then you are there!""

I try to 'place' my arrows for fletch tight groups at 20 yards. Here is the first group I shot this morning(a few minutes ago), from that distance, in the break between snow and rain. I don't care about the bulls eyes because (luckily) my arrows aren't spined right. The groups show me consistency. My PB non-tourney practice score is 242 on 300.

DAS Elite, 32lbs at my draw, ST 500 Epics (practice arrows) with 145 gr points, 3 x 3" fletch, 3 under string walk to 20 yards.

 

I good touch place is at 20 yds. If you can hold all your shots in a 6" group at 20 yds centered around the spot your shooting....that is pretty good. I'lll post you some picture of gitnbetr's 20 yd barebow groups. I guess that is all our goals. still an honest 6" group at 20 yds for all the arrows you shoot is a good mile stone. from the 6" group (obtainable by most) to gitnbetr's groups is form and tuning......and a lot of practice.

rusty

 

6" group would get 240 or better on a 20 yd 300 target.

anyone on this forum will tell you that the below groups are very good. in the state champion class for sure it not world class.

http://sites.google.com/site/stringwalkerbowhunter/gitnbetr

rusty

 

If I want to rip my nose apart and modify my form, then I can bring the arrows into that center circle more often than not. That one on the target was put up this morning as new, and I shot at it for about 20 minutes at the most. I cut these circles out and glue them to a piece of cardboard, then contact cement them to the target. The idea is, that I have to hit within this circle ALL the time(7 ring = 4 3/4")...everything outside it only counts as 'bush' score or 'oppps', in a tourney...it's good to have goals...lol

I have only been 'training' (much different from practicing) for less than a year, and since it snows up here all winter, I can only get to the range once per week. So if I can, everyone can...lol

I predict, using barebow flipper rest and string walking, I CAN be as accurate as any recurve with a sight and 'should' be able to shoot just as well some day, with more dedicated training - 260 on 300 is not out of range and only means a few more 10s to get there.

Just listen to the guys on here and ask more questions whenever you run across something that you can't figure out on your own!

 

Rusty,

6" groups at 20 yards, that's something I can work towards.

Basically a 3" miss if I understand this right.

Gitnbetr, wow, thats some kind of shooting.

Toby

 

do not be confused. on the various tradbow forums you will find that 6" groups or better is what everyone shoots on the forums . jsut let me say that honest 6" 20+ arrows groups at 20yds are much easier to type on the internet than they are to shoot at the local range. .

all 6" 20 yds groups are not equal.....i have shot with them I know for sure

rusty

 

And on a typical 3D course, keeping to the 25 yrd. and under for Trad gear, probably maintaining an 8 pt. average would be a respectable score . An 8.5 will get you in the money for many shoots. I shoot a #50, 64" Bob Lee recurve, and use my pattented splitygapyinstpray, sighting system, It's graet, about 85% of the time!!

 

Rusty is right. An HONEST 6" group with THREE arrows is much harder to get than one shooting more than that because some arrows have the chance of bouncing off the others to score...that's not fair to YOU! Shoot three to train for accuracy and 4 for stamina ONLY when accuracy can be reached.

 

good point brad, but I am saying that the truth about group size on various forums could be measured with a different ruler than used at the local range. i was thinking about shooting all the arrows at one paper traget then measuring the resutling group. that is with a ruler who's inch is 2.54 cm.

ya shoot with some of the six inch groups shooters. they look at their groups and say "yep six inch group" LOL . then ya take a dollar bill out of your pocket and say "ah this is 6"!! man that group is worth a dollar and half "

the US dollar bill is 6" long

rusty -keeping the honest honest- Craine

 

Ok just for clarity, is everyone is talking about 6 inch groups at 20 yards barebow? Are we talking about instinctive or gap shooting off the arrow point only, no sights, no aiming marks, and no rubber bands on the riser?

Also, is there a rule of thumb for expanding group size with distance? For example, might one expect a group size to grow a half inch for every 10 yards, a full inch?

 

:2cents: What you can learn by practicing at 20 yards is limited.

Much better to practice at 40. When you can shoot 10" groups at 40 yards, you will be well on your way to good accuracy. Those that develop and fine tune their skills, utilizing a 20 yard limit, when faced with shots beyond that distance are at square one and need to begin again. When you routinely practice at 40 yards you also learn about executing the closer shots.

If you were already proficient with the bow and were conditioning yourself to shoot an indoor league at a set distance, for example 20 yard 300 rounds, then it would make sense to practice at 20. For hunting, it makes no sense at all to practice at 20 yards. A 24 yard shot, a distance that all those 20 yard aces are going to attempt given the opportunity, is in the as yet unresolved realm, so you would wind up guessing at the worst possible moment, the moment that you need to be on top of your game. If you're unpracticed at 24 yards, you can't responsibly take that shot. It's a poke 'n hope.

The reason that there is a 20 yard hunting ethic is because mediocre and wrong practice leaves the majority in the condition of not being able to make the shot if it's over 10 yards.

After you get good at 40 yards, start practicing at 60. That's how you become a good archer.

 

:2cents: What you can learn by practicing at 20 yards is limited.

Much better to practice at 40. ...

Well said, Seven.

I've been practicing with a 50 cm (20") field target at 40 yards and, while humbling, it's great practice. "Good enough" form at 20 yards can mean the outside ring of the target, or even a miss, at 40.

 

Seven,

I agree, practice at longer rangers makes one a better archer, did the same in the compound days.

So, what's good at 40 yards?

Rusty offered that a "true" 6" group at 20 yards is good.

What some of us new to this are looking for is accurate shooting standards at various yardages and how this accuracy is obtained, barebow, sights, etc.

Toby

 

Rasyad: Barebow...no sights or attachments of any kind. A rest can be used.

but I am saying that the truth about group size on various forums could be measured with a different ruler than used at the local range."

Yep, and 6 " groups in the backyard and 6" groups at a tourney are two different things too!

If you were already proficient with the bow and were conditioning yourself to shoot an indoor league at a set distance, for example 20 yard 300 rounds, then it would make sense to practice at 20."

Nope, I regularly train at 25 yards, and if I could I would go much further. When I step up to 20 yards it looks just that much closer and easier. IF I HAVE to practice indoors at 20 yards, then that is good enough. But if I can train at 25 with the same form for every shot, all it takes is a quick string crawl adjustment. Training at longer distances makes 'me' trust my form and the bow to do the work, instead of 'thinking/worrying' that's further away and subconsciously panicking or adjusting for the longer distance...more worry = more adrenaline, and causes over-thinking...for me anyway.

 

Shooting in 3d competitions would be the best way to see how your shooting compares to others in a hunting type situation. Hopefully you have some good shooters in your area to compare too.

 

Toby

Forget group sizes. Nobody measures their arrows while practicing. Forget 15 yards, 25 yards, and 45 yards. The guy who shoots the best at 20 yards will almost always shoot the best at forty yards.

You asked for a yardstick...one exists. It's the 300 round mentioned above. 3D courses and field courses are all different and therefore not standardized (not a yardstick). In a three hundred round every shot is counted and measured. When someone says they shoot "these" size groups at "this or that" distance they are guessing and generalizing and usually generalizing favorably.

John

 

John,

That makes sense.

Toby

 

Forget group sizes.

I vehemently disagree with is statement!!!

The 3 Cs of are archery are Control, Consistency and Confidence. For someone that is practicing or learning, groups are the final definition to consistency, show control and bring confidence. Bulls eyes are NOT a measure of success unless they are in consistent groups.

While I agree that a 300 round has purpose, so does 90m and blank bail work. A 300 round is useless unless you already have the ability to hit consistent groups and can be frustrating until you do. We have to know why we missed before we can try to complicate things with score or the mental aspect of scoring consistently!

Groups anywhere on the target are a terrific measure of successful learning.

Shooting further yardages also helps build confidence and consistency at short distances. If your form ain't near perfect, then you won't hit at longer distances. Your miss ratio is directly proportional to your inadequacies.

 

For what it's worth, I've been shooting in my basement due to winter weather and either shoot less than 10' away concentrating on form or from 7 yards at little 1/2" dots. Almost every arrow is within 1" of the dot.

When the weather warms, my plan is to move outside and extend my range in increments of about 3-4 yards for a week or so of shooting or until I feel comfortable at that range and then move back another 3-4 yards.

Does this plan have merit, or would there be a better way of extending my range?

 

Brad it sounds to me that as a string walker you are effectively using a sight and specifically using arrows that don't hit exactly where your sight is placed. I doubt Toby understands that this is a unique perspective. While you have offered some good general training tips you are missing the point of Toby's initial question (what is a yardstick to see how I may be progressing?). And, to be more helpful you should probably explain why a string walker with arrows that are out of tune may be more concerned about consistant grouping than overall accuracy.

John

 

Shooting Groups at known yardages don't tell me anything about my shooting consistently shooting 250 and over on the 3-D course is my Yard Stick