Martin,

I know exactly how you feel, shooting with a clicker can be amazing if you use it correctly.
The problem is translating that feeling onto your BB shooting. Some days I can make it feel similar but never exactly the same. On the bad days it can be tough to accomplish.

I'd say it'll take longer than 1000 shots. Also you need to find something else which happens during the clicker going off (like a feeling in your back) to use as your trigger once the clicker is removed.

Good luck.

-Grant

 

Martin,

Be careful,,,,,,The clicker shot is a shot where the subconscious is told when to release. A shot with no psychotrigger (clicker) is a shot where the subcon is allowed to tell itself when to release. Because the subcon is constantly seeking efficiency, it will begin to shortcut your system, that is natural. Your no clicker shot may feel good for awhile, but the subcon will learn it eventually, and begin the efficiency process (not allowing full back tension, or freezing off spot).

I do not say this to degrade your system. I only warn you because thousands of people have been exactly where you are and attempted to use a clicker for training and then take it off the bow and wonder why they can't perform the same shot. It is two totally different portions of the mind performing the shot. With the clicker, you should be consciously thinking about pulling to make the clicker activate. With no clicker, you allow the subcon to tell itself when to let go, and you become susceptible to the natural way the subcon learns efficiency.

Think about it, when you put a clicker on, your release at aim went away, almost instantly. This is because you changed what you are thinking at full draw. The clicker mentally separated your shot between aiming and then pulling to make the clicker activate. You need to learn to mentally separate the shot for yourself by learning how to concentrate!!!!!!! A psychotrigger is used to complete the circuit and allows to you concentrate on the movement that gets you to the trigger. When the subcon has a "GO" signal from a psychotrigger, it is much easier to keep it in the things it is good at, like aiming, balance, breathing, and all of the systems that do not require conscious thought. When it has no "GO" signal, the subcon is always waiting in the background to give you the "Good Enough" thought and release the arrow the most efficient way it knows how, sooner rather than later.

I may be able to explain this better with a phone call. 253-686-3623

JT

 

call him...seriously!

 

Thank you very much!
Grant,
Im expanding while clicker clicks. I shot some arrows without the clicker and works just fine but I will finish my 1000 shots before next step.

Hi Joel,
I reread the emails you sent me many times but cannot make the mantra works.
I still have problems to find a spichotrigger other than expanding.


Humdinger,
Thanks for the advise but I contacted Joel soem time ago by email because my english is not good enough for a telephone call.

Martín

 

",,,,The clicker shot is a shot where the subconscious is told when to release. A shot with no psychotrigger (clicker) is a shot where the subcon is allowed to tell itself when to release."~ Clickerman

Respectfully, IMO that is a rather self serving (and incorrect) analysis of a clicker. Words, and their perception may be the reason for this but I suspect more strongly that a misunderstanding of the clicker is the real situation.

The clicker is not a trigger, but rather an indicator of consistency. If it is "telling" the shooter anything it's that he is ready to proceed to either let down or take the shot to expansion and conclusion... but certainly NOT to let go.

Tom

 

Tom

Consistency of draw length was the original intention of the clicker. But at this point 99% of the people using them (including the Oly guys) are using them as a trigger - pull until the clicker goes off and bam the shot is gone.

Matt

 

Im using it to set a little time for aiming.
Im indeed shooting a little after it clicks so it is not the trigger.
Martin

 

Martin, how would you describe the mechanics of your shot now as regards shot trigger?

Where are your thoughts as you are about to release?

Thanks.

 

For me the key to be able to mentally relax while aiming in the middle for a few seconds before releasing was to add a Clickerman type of mind control awareness to the shot. In short, I have to actively keep my concentration focus point on a certain feel or motion that brings me to a trigger to be able to control the shot and especially to get smooth releases.

A clicker or other trigger does help a lot for most people, but if you don´t add a mind control sequence to focus on the right things in the shot, you will not have any success in the long term. You will need to know where to put your focus, and also be able to really control your focus placement when things get under pressure. At home most people can control their shooting, but when you are standing in a final or have to put that shootoff arrow in the middle, you will need a robust system that you can trust no matter what is around you. If you use the clicker in a wrong way, you will shoot like a god when you are calm, but when you are put under pressure you will freeze or feel scared to go to go to the trigger point.

I have held seminars for archers during some years and I still do. In these seminars I or we (mostly I collaborate with Bobby Larsson, a world and european champion barebow archer and a friend of mine) talk about trimming, technique and the mental aspects of archery in general and barebow in specific. Since I have written some articles (in swedish) about TP training and the psychological functions behind it, I tend to get a lot of questions about tp related problems and I help archers every year to get back in track. There are a lot of exercises for target panic control and most work better or worse, but the basics are to help the archer take control over the shot. That is needed to break down the problem and to get to a level where it is possible to help the archer in need to rebuild the mental sequence of shooting. I have a basic exercise to make archers aware of what I call focus placement (atleast straight translated from swedish).

Try this:

For all steps below: Concentrate FULLY on keeping the exact same mental focus in all the shots. If you are not able to do it, reduce the number of arrows to 3-4 arrows. DO NOT let the mind drift away to other things.

1. Shoot 6-10 arrows and put 100% of your mental focus on the aiming. Make absolutely sure that you aim perfectly and follow every move the point, or whatever you use as aiming point makes. Aim! Aim! Aim!

2. Shoot 6-10 arrows and put 100% of your mental focus on the actual trigger mechanism. For this I most of the time add a clicker to the student´s bows, since it´s a lot easier to understand and do. Put the point relaxed in the middle, just pull the bow, and put all mental effort into thinking about WHEN the clicker/trigger will go. Will it click? Will it click? Will it click?

3. Shoot 6-10 arrows and put 100% of your mental focus on the motion that brings you to the trigger. Don´t care about the clicker, don´t care about the target (just put the point in the middle, relaxed and let it stay there without caring about it), just focus all your mental energy on THE MOTION that brings you to the trigger and most of all, focus on keeping it going no matter what happens. Don´t stop, dont turn around, don´t look at the bird, just keep going and FOCUS on doing it. Extend! Extend! Extend!

If you have bad TP, this exercise will be very difficult, so start by turning down the volume of the TP with for example Kidwells theories first. The exercise above is part of the process of rebuilding your sequence and not a "fire brigade method" when things are getting nasty. The exercise will make the archers aware of where they are putting their concentration during the shot and that is a major factor for keeping TP away.

I follow Clickermans advices to 100% and I always keep my focus like in the case number 3 above. As soon as I go to number 1 or 2 during a competition, I am on the way to disaster. The mantra sequence mentioned above is a help for the brain to stay in the right track. I use it sometimes, but I am able to keep in the right way also without it. What I however have to do is to keep very concentrated in all shots. If I drift away in the mind or just loose the concentration of some reason, the focus placement fails and I make a bad shot, almost all the time. The effect of this is that I nowadays feel a lot more tired after competitions, but on the other hand, I shoot a lot better too.

What I find most interesting is that I can turn on and off the TP during shots now. I can use my old mental sequence (that basically is: "Aim in the middle and let the mind go wherever it wants") to turn on the TP, and then I change to a more controlled state and the TP disappears totally straight away, and then I can turn it on again, just like a light switch. When I started to be able to do that, I found the last elements of a deeper understanding of the mental aspects of barebow archery. It was a total relief and something that I had searched for more than 10 years. I will remember that day, or actually those 4-5 targets in a small field competition for the rest of my life. It forever changed the way I shoot and even the way I look at archery. I have said it before, but again, thanks a million times to mr Turner for helping me take the last important steps to really be able to see what I actually did wrong during 15 years of shooting.

Mechanically I shoot with some different triggers. I don´t want to get to used with one, so I change from time to time, or sometimes even from shot to shot. It´s like shooting with different releasers with a compound. If you have the right mental technique as a base, it doesnt matter if you have a thumb activation, a backtension or a index finger triggered release. The mental sequence is the same, no matter the tool. I also shoot a lot without trigger, just to remind me about how that is done. I want to avoid that the brain finds a new way to cheat, so I try to vary my shooting in terms of the use of triggers to make sure that my brain is not allowed to play some tricks with shortcuts. Practically I mix between almost all of the known triggers mentioned here and around the archery world. Fingers touching this and that, back of the thumb going to the ear, vane on nose, nail pressured on different places, clicker (when shooting in the oly recurve division) and so on. In general distinct is better for me, but the idea is the same for all.

When shooting with a clicker, its pretty easy to do things correct, since the trigger is so clear and also only connected to a big muscular movement. Therefore it´s easier to start with the clicker when you are practicing to let your shooting become trigger controlled. BUT and its a big but, the reality in barebow is a lot more complex, since a clicker is not allowed (atleast in the WA world). The triggers that is allowed within the rules are a lot less effective, meaning that there is no room for cheating on discipline. To be able to let the trigger control your shooting, you will need to put time into it and to be aware of that it´s no magical medicine. If you have your face planted in the TP mud, you will need to work your ass off to get back into doing good shots. There is no shortcut to success, no matter what method you try.

 

Thanks Martin,
You are shooting pretty well if you have TP.
I’m using the clicker only to create some time before release to set my aim.
I can release before the clicker clicks if it takes too much time or can release after the click if I want to. As long as I know I’m not controlled by the clicker (yet?? I hope)
Aidan,
I release imagining my arrow at the center of the target while feeling the tension at my back.
It is hard to explain, as I wrote above I usually release at the click but can release after or before.
Thanks
Martin

 

Thanks Martin,
You are shooting pretty well if you have TP.

I don´t have TP now, but I struggled with it during a lot of years. I have shot some good results with a total war in my mind in every shot. Sometimes it felt like having 220 volts connected directly to the spine and that someone turned on a switch everytime I was getting close to the target. Apart from some bad shots here and there, however, I have always managed to keep the shooting looking ok and to get the scores down on the paper. That doesnt mean that I find it comfortable however... f*ucking far from it

 

Long story short,,a clicker is a band aid,,doe's not address the problem,,and for all the posters that say Olympians use them,,,Mostly to get consistent draw length to load the Bow exactly each time for 70 meter bulls,,

 

Ill admit I havent watched much archery at the olympic level, but for sure the stuff I watched they were releasing as soon as you heard the audible click sound. If it was mainly about exact draw length, you would hear the click and then watch them really focus and expand. I dont disagree its usefullness as a draw length check, but there is no doubt they are using it as a go switch.

 

If I had to be dependent on a clicker to shoot a Bow I'd just shoot a rifle.:cheers:

 

Sam - there are some awful good archers out there that need the clicker to shoot - TP sucks I say do what ever you need to do to keep shooting.

Matt

 

Matt, Martin... I certainly don't speak for all those who use clickers, nor do I think that others should (just my opinion) If the shot goes off at the clicker's falling, it still is not necessarily "a trigger" (in the sense that it initiates release). It hopefully is initiating expansion and followthru to conclusion.... which for me is significantly different then shooting an arrow without any consideration of either of the two... and just "letting go" on arrival or whatever.

I have always believed that proper use of the clicker is both misunderstood and as scarce as teeth on a chicken..... and little has changed my opinion.

Tom

 

It seems some people either are not involved in any sort of competitive/high stress archery, or just have a very narrow view of the mental side of shooting.

I'm glad that I've started shooting freestyle recurve as it's given me a perspective on shot execution which seems to be largely missing in most trad circles. The clicker is so far beyond a simple draw check to the point where that is really a secondary function now.

-Grant

 

Thank you very much for all advises.
I hope this is the solution not just a patch but I will have to wait some time to know it.
Martin,
Thank you very much for your posts, very accurate as usual.
I like your "alternating triggers", I have two and I was trying to decide which one to use......so I will use both.

Some time ago I feel like something will explode when I was at full draw and aiming. Now, with the clicker I shot relaxed and I’m really enjoying aiming.
BTW: I have been shooting better than ever, that is 12.5 points on 20cm at 9 meters and 14 points at 15 meters on 40cm target. I know this is not enough for a World Championship but it is very good for me if I can do the same without the clicker.
I will complete my 1000 arrows with clicker and then.......1000 arrows without clicker.
I do not know if it will work but I will let you know.
Thanks
Martin

 

Tradarcher you say : "It hopefully is initiating expansion and followthru to conclusion"

No definitely not, it is the expansion that makes the clicker go off and since you don't know when that will happen you automatically gets perfect followthru if you have correct line (pull/press app. 50% each).

 

So what then is it that an archer "has" while at anchor and full draw? There certainly is no expanding going on there/then. It is only after the visual input satisfies the mental requirement that shot commitment can occur and t h e n what I wrote above is the case.

I do suspect that, at least in part, some of the "difference" is due to misinterpretation of each others writing....

Tom

 

I guess if a clicker is a band aid then that is a good thing. They are used to stop bleeding and promote quicker healing.

The important part about any trigger is to concentrate on the action that gets it to go off and not on the result of it going off. That way you will not get into anticipating it going off. If for any reason your mind goes from that action to something else you need to let down and start over. Like Martin said once you get use to using the clicker then you can go on to using other methods of triggers that are legal in shoots. Your mind will be clear and you will be able to find a shot process that will work for you.

 

I guess if a clicker is a band aid then that is a good thing. They are used to stop bleeding and promote quicker healing.

(grin)

The important part about any trigger is to concentrate on the action that gets it to go off and not on the result of it going off. That way you will not get into anticipating it going off. If for any reason your mind goes from that action to something else you need to let down and start over. Like Martin said once you get use to using the clicker then you can go on to using other methods of triggers that are legal in shoots. Your mind will be clear and you will be able to find a shot process that will work for you.

(ditto)

From his last post, it sounds like Martin is making progress...

 

Buy a formaster or make one.

 

Speaking as a target recurve shooter, the clicker is a trigger, but it's a trigger that the archer *must* control, not the other way around. That way lies clicker panic, close relative of target panic.

When you're fully in control of the bow, have solid form and a strong mindset, you can put the tip of the arrow a few millimetres from the edge of the clicker and then shift your eye focus back to the target as your internal focus shifts to whatever it is you do to complete the shot (push, pull, push/pull, expand, whatever your philosophy is). If *at any time* during this phase the clicker drops when the archer isn't ready, they should be able to reset the shot without flinching.

I think is was Jacob Wukie of the US 2012 Olympic team who displayed phenomenal control during the team rounds. With only seconds to shoot each arrow, time is vital. A gust of wind pushed him and the clicker dropped as he came off target. He didn't release. Instead he readjusted as the wind dropped and shot a strong shot without the clicker, hitting an 8. At 70m under that sort of pressure, that's no mean feat.

 

Tom

Every competitive archer I have shot with that uses a clicker sets it just past anchor. They hit anchor acquire their aiming solution and take their shot to conclusion. A tiny bit of expansion makes the clicker go off and this triggers the release. The clicker is absolutely a trigger not a draw check in this instance.

Matt

 

"The clicker is absolutely a trigger not a draw check in this instance. "

Never said it was.... I'm not sure but suspect we're describing the elephant, but with different words and starting from different places.

Matt, is there a difference in your mind between "triggers..." and "...is a trigger."? In mine, there is a world of distance between the two.

Tom

 

jesus SAM
THAT RESPONSE REMINDS ME OF ANOTHER FRIEND OF MINE
MY FRIEND LARRY D JONES WHO I'VE HUNTED WITH SHOOTS WITH A CLICKER WHILE HUNTING and I'M SURE HE'S HEADED FOR THE BOWHUNTING HALL OF FAME. I WANT THE BEST FOR THE ANIMAL I'M SHOOTING NOT SOME ANIMAL RUNNING OFF INTO THE WOODS WOUNDED BECAUSE SOMEONE TOLD ME NOT TO SHOOT A CLICKER. I TRAINED MY WIFE WITH A CLICKER AND SHE SHOT HER FIRST DEER AFTER 6 MONTHS OF SHOOTING RECURVE. THATS WHAT I'M AFTER NOT I DON'T SHOT A CLICKER BECAUSE?????? SHE ALSO PLACED 2ND IN HER CLASS AT THE IBO TRAD WORLDS LOSING BY ONLY 7 POINTS! DAVE L

 

What ever! No matter how you look at it,,,a clicker is a Crutch,,,something people rely on to make a Bow shot. Learning an archery sequence and following it, ingraining it, and learning to aim and expand through the shot does not require any clickers or triggers. Those that use clickers are just adding gadgets to their archery. If I want more gadgets,,just shoot a compound or a rifle!

 

Dave - don't be a stranger good to see you posting

Tom - I get where you are coming from - the conscious act of taking the shot to conclusion is the trigger and the clicker just gets you fingers off the string on the way to conclusion.

I've shot with a clicker a little bit and its a world different. All I have to do is focus on the feel of my back contracting and at some point click-bam the shot is gone. If it didn't want to compete in WA3D and FITA I would shoot with one always - they are a game changer.

Matt

 

Dave - don't be a stranger good to see you posting

Tom - I get where you are coming from - the conscious act of taking the shot to conclusion is the trigger and the clicker just gets you fingers off the string on the way to conclusion.

I've shot with a clicker a little bit and its a world different. All I have to do is focus on the feel of my back contracting and at some point click-bam the shot is gone. If it didn't want to compete in WA3D and FITA I would shoot with one always - they are a game changer.

Matt

Yes! Now we're beginning to sing in harmony! ... And I certainly agree with your last 5 words wholeheartedly! ... (but only for those who know, and are able to use them properly.)

Tom

 

If at anchor you are not expanding, then you are collapsing....whether you know it or not.

If the competitive class that you are shooting in allows the use of a clicker, and you are not using one.....advantage to the other competitors.

If you do not compete, but only recreate or hunt where there are no rules limiting equipment, and you want to use a clicker.....you are doing something else to perfect your shot.

I have talked to Joel twice, I have read all that he has written, and I have watched his segment on MBBIV at least twice. I also took to heart Rod's reminder the other day to "follow the sequence". I went back to my notes from the clinic and realized there was one portion of the shot sequence that I never practiced.....either at the bale or while bridging......COMMITMENT. Why didn't I practice that item? Simple, it's mental, not physical, and after the clinic I was so busy getting used to the physical changes to my shot sequence, combined with shooting at a bale without aiming, that committing to the shot wasn't an issue. I have no doubt that this practice (combined with Joel's illustrations that aiming is purely subconscious and we need to trust that) will be a huge help in defeating the case of TP I am currently struggling with.

I am now actively practicing the COMMITMENT, while following Joel's advice and trying again to work a pull to the feather on the nose as a clicker that's legal in 3D tournaments. Like I said, if I could use a clicker in the class I shoot, I would.

I've never put one on a bow because I knew that I couldn't compete with one.....I've read through this entire thread and there's no answer yet to how to successfully wean oneself off the clicker, so at this point I'm glad I am "following the sequence".

 

I've never put one on a bow because I knew that I couldn't compete with one.....I've read through this entire thread and there's no answer yet to how to successfully wean oneself off the clicker, so at this point I'm glad I am "following the sequence".

Rob

When I was playing with one this winter I was contacted by some guys that I really respect and told in no uncertain terms not to go down the clicker road unless I had to. I'm taking that advice.

Matt

 

JohnK is absolutely correct. You have to get to the point where you control the clicker instead of letting it control you. That comes with time, but when you get there you will be able to not take the shot when the clicker goes off. For me it's a red light / green light sort of thing. If my aim is correct, the light's green and I will take the shot if the clicker goes off. Otherwise it's red, and if the clicker sounds, I will collapse slightly to reset it and restart my expansion. If everything's really bad I'll just let down and start over from the beginning.

 

Matt - Thanks for that affirmation. I experimented with the feather to the nose as a non-anticipatory, but it was inconsistent....not mattering that the mantra was strong. I'm glad that it didn't truly work for me as I know that my continued expansion will allow the shot to go off on it's own. I just have to keep my brain focused on the mantra and nothing but good can come from it.
:shooting:

 

Green, wont this make your release a subconcious one, allowing your brain to find a way to make this shorter and shorter(more efficient and wanting the weight off the body)? Just asking, based on what Joel has mentioned about his method.

 

I spoke to a top top 3D shooter last year about trying a clicker for my TP. His advice was to try everything else first, a clicker is the last resort. Once your brain relies on it it's very hard to get away from. This guy knows his stuff and I took his advice.
If there was no other hope I would try one properly but for now, I will ring Joel and go that route.