Pm sent

 

you will love it

 

Well I can relate to money being an issue but also think of this. As you spend your money on the knock off.
what happens to the small bowyers that has developed and push the envelope to get those products into the main stream of archery.
What happens if these bowyers go under and don’t produce cutting edge products or quality items? Knock offs move to another product to copy and rip off.
while the archery industry and individual archers loose. This is a bit exaggerated. It can and does happen.

Chad

 

hi chad
who's gone under? you have any specific company's?

 

Directly due to knock off’s no. Does it hurt current bowyers, yes. It’s sales lost for a product they designed, made, tested.
I do see them mention it time and again.

Chad

 

I’m not sure on the nock off business taking business away. In my opinion many of the people buying nock offs have neither the money or will to pay the much higher prices of the originals.
I always thought I would like a Hoyt Satori but there is no way I could or would spend that kind of money for one, especially never seeing one or having the ability to shoot one. Nowadays if I ever seen a deal on the nock off TBow I would probably buy it. In doing so Hoyt won’t loose a customer it never had.

 

Inexpensive imported products have probably been encouraging Hoyt to focus on high end products for years. Especially considering the low-end imports get cheaper and more available every year.

I am a fan of Samick products, but Samick was probably an early example of this in the early 2000s. The much loved and excellent Agulla Ultra looks like a cartoonish approximation of a Hoyt Avalon.

The more recent trend of direct "rip offs" as some might call them is more concerning in my opinion. Production is a lot cheaper if you don't have to hire knowledge designers, do R&D, or worry about marketing. Hoyt probably realized they'll never be able to manufacture a product at a similar cost, so they're simply leaving this market to be filled by someone else.

I would argue that copies ARE directly taking sales away from original bowyers like Border and Hoyt. I would also argue that in addition to this, they are encouraging these manufacturers to give up and move away from parts of the market where they have no chance of competing on an uneven field, due to economic, ethical and IP reasons. As has been the case with almost all American manufacturing, this will probably reduce number of jobs in the industry and the number of products made here, outside of very high end specialty stuff. Granted, the archery industry isn't the size of the American steel industry, but it's something we all care about on this forum.

Personally, I would buy used before getting something with a blatantly copied design. A guy just sold an old Hoyt warf on the trading blanket for $75. I bought a Sky Hunter Supreme for $125. Quality equipment can be found for not much more than the (rapidly increasing) price of a tank of gas.

 

I would argue that copies ARE directly taking sales away from original bowyers like Border and Hoyt. I would also argue that in addition to this, they are encouraging these manufacturers to give up and move away from parts of the market where they have no chance of competing on an uneven field, due to economic, ethical and IP reasons. As has been the case with almost all American manufacturing, this will probably reduce number of jobs in the industry and the number of products made here, outside of very high end specialty stuff. Granted, the archery industry isn't the size of the American steel industry, but it's something we all care about on this forum.

There is the other face of the coin also: the people who buy these bows are (arguably) the ones who will never buy a Hoyt and Border at full price anyway. The companies get nothing from second hand sales and get nothing from the people who don't want their product for the full price reason either.

PS I don't see how someone can support his industry by buying second hand. This is called recycling, not supporting.

 

Me buying a knockoff tempest does sid as much good as me buying a used tempest.

 

Actually, you might like the knock-off and acknowledging its shortcomings you might want to buy a Border. I think there are a lot of custom bows out there people bought and realised they don't fit them that are on the shelf or on the second hand market. Sometimes trying at low cost a design maybe is not a bad thing.

 

I have to disagree that buying used hurts the original designer. When I buy a new bow I take into account resaleability as a selling point of that item. I am more likely to buy a premium riser knowing I can take a 2-300$ hit vs. A 500$ hit if it doesnt end up being what I was looking for. Often I find a premium item will have a diminished value of maybe 30% whereas a chinese knockoff might be 50 %or not even sellable because the price of new is so low already.

We live in a world with lots of options. But what we choose has consequences.

It would be easy to say border or spigarelli dms or bosen copied greenhorn, but I would not say that, they built on a design concept and made it their own. Tbow did not make it their own in my opinion. (And they could have). I think they crossed a line. How would you feel if you were sid in this instance?.

 

I think Sid said: Copying is the lowest (highest?) form of flattery. Or something in this way. He can't do a thing, unfortunately, other than being sarcastic.

PS Nobody said buying used hurts the original design. It was said buying second hand helps in no way the manufacturer. The second hand market can give him an idea about how much he can charge extra for the next generation riser (improved due to input collected) or if he should just produce the existing one and be done. And Satori can't be improved as shooting off the shelf hunting bow. And neither Tempest. The line crossed is regarding the top of the line design - they literally took the peak models. You can't improve from there. Nobody pays attention or gives a damn that a lot of wood bows are copies of Widow, Great Plains and Damon Howatt models and just replaced the woods.

 

I think one difficulty we have in the metal riser world is finding a riser that feels special, because in reality anything mass produced doesnt have much soul. What that is is different to us all. The first riser I had that really impressed me happened to be a used dalaa that had mojo from the previous owner killing lots of deer with it. I still remember how it felt to have that feeling, I like this one! From then on I had some brand loyalty to 3 rivers plus I've never had a bad experience with them. Other risers that I had that felt special were historical of limited quantity items like greenhorn Sirius, spigarelli vbs 2001 or das elite. Even top of the line hoyt exceed leaves me cold. I dont care how good it shoots I wouldnt want one.. I'm afraid if I bought a chinese riser it would be the same. Guess I'm a gear snob

 

You are right metalanton. The single aluminum riser that felt special was a Hoyt Aerotec. The rest are just tools.

 

Isn't that the point a bow is a tool. Granted better equipment in the right hands makes a small difference but the reverse is true as well. A1500 dollar bow in the hands of a newb won't make any difference. It's the act of shooting and I see nothing wrong with an affordable price of equipment to get you on the right track. I also do see a point in supporting local when you can. From what I've heard a lot of American companies contract the bow making to China and it gets shipped back to them and they rebrand it. Mas production in a global economy. China also doesn't have copyright laws like we do so several manufacturers make the exact same product just using different add ons like finger tabs or gloves arrows strings ect. If I could afford the og I probably would by the og. However ilf bows are made for interchangeable limbs it's the riser that's special or not. But even custom bowyers use standard designs the length type of wood and process vary on different longbows(English) but at the end of the day it's still a longbow. Buying American is great if you can afford it.

 

Anton, good point. I probably fall in the same category, lol. I agree on liking bows that feel special for one reason or another.

Speaking for myself, I am certainly biased, lol.
I have always liked products who's creators are engaged in the community. Bear maintains a free shooting range outside their factory in Gainesville that I frequented during college, which led to me buying several bows from their pro shop. I have always greatly enjoyed learning from forum posts by the creators of Gillo, CD, DAS, Border, etc.

 

chad
i'm wondering about earl hoyt's ilf system alot of bow companies use his system for there limbs .
is that a knock off? coping someone's design?
if so i hope everyone who won't buy a knock off is only shooting hoyt limbs

 

chad
i'm wondering about earl hoyt's ilf system alot of bow companies use his system for there limbs .
is that a knock off? coping someone's design?
if so i hope everyone who won't buy a knock off is only shooting hoyt limbs

DJL Touché. I’m wondering about those round things on your vehicle, what are they oh wheels and tires.
hope your driving only ford and Firestone tires.
Check your history earl hoyt didn’t patent the ilf.

Chad

 

I'll do some digging tonight, there's a copy of an old book online that highlights some of Earl's design work. I haven't read it in a while, and it might mention something about this. It's my understanding that Easton purchased Hoyt in 1983, the same year they patented the ILF system on the TD-4. Although patented and published, they did not pursue infringements. I can only speculate about the reason, whether it was altruistic or they simply didn't think it was worthwhile.

I have heard similar stories about other design details. For instance, Spigarelli developed collet tiller bolts in early machined risers and granted Hoyt permission to use them.

It seems like those in the industry have been generous with their ideas. Granted, in my opinion, copying a piece of hardware is different than taking a complete likeness of a product.

 

The thing about buying knockoffs is you reward them for stealing designs from the original makers.

IP theft may not necessarily make the original makers close their business, but it affects their willingness to create new product designs that involves time and money to perfect them.

 

There's the design but also more subtle dimensions like specific draw force profiles, materials and lamination combos, grip designs and riser weighting that all factor in also. I see many bowyers copying each other drag-and-drop there, but few complain about that, rather more the 'surface' aesthetics of the design in particular, elements that even in a bow don't actually impact anywhere near as much as other less visible variables.

In any case, a good shoot is a good shoot. If I can get quality for cheap, then I'm in. Perhaps I would've bought a clone instead of my massively overpriced Hoyt Buffalo back in the day, if I knew it shot as well. That said, I probably wouldn't feel as good about shooting a bow that was an effective copy, solely for aesthetic reasons.

The other thing is that designs can not be patented, only inventions can. A new kind of bow (atop recurve, longbow, compound etc) could be protected under IP, but not styles of that bow.

 

A bow is a simple thing. there are going to be overlaps in functional elements. As draven commented about knockoffs being a compliment to the designer. Thank God that a universal system of ilf was devised and I bet that its acceptance across manufacturers was a huge compliment to hoyt and has gone forward to benefit all. Maybe hoyt is selling a few more risers these days just because the buyer can put uukha limbs on them for example

 

Buying 'knock off' products feeds the Dragon that will perpetuate intellectual theft... Product creators deserve to be rewarded for their innovation. CHEAP S.O.B.s that support 'knock offs' are a plague on industry, IMO!

 

Under patent laws that time of protection is limited, that’s why we have cheap generic medications, most made overseas.
To the OP, I understand, on another archery site I would ask a question and things would quickly go south once the name calling started, I found myself thinking the same thing,” I just asked about a product ”, and was sorry I asked.
After many years on that site I finally quit going there and ended up here.

 

Tooltech- tell me how you really feel. Lol

 

Let call this what it is .... these are counterfeit goods, "imitations of something valuable with the intention to deceive or defraud." Now if your're happy supporting an international trade in counterfeit goods ... that's fine, that's your choice.
Personally I'm not.

 

Let call this what it is .... these are counterfeit goods, "imitations of something valuable with the intention to deceive or defraud." Now if your're happy supporting an international trade in counterfeit goods ... that's fine, that's your choice.
Personally I'm not.

I agree 100%. I have turned down business that I knew was going to counterfeits. No real effect but it makes me feel a bit better - and that's good enough for me

 

Ones perspective on nock offs has everything to do with their income level.

 

Income level may be ONE of several things leading to perspective.
It is indeed the most widely used excuse/abuse for justifying their decision.

 

I think I heard sid say somewhere that if they are casting the tempest knockoffs they will see failures. Something to do with the design. I think he said that on a podcast. I have been on both sides of this. When I was younger I bought knockoffs due to budget constraints. As a knife maker later on in life I watched this happen constantly to my more popular competitors. One guy even asked the other maker for a print of the knife so he could make sure it would function properly. Knowing how much time can go into designing and testing something only to have it stolen and copied to a point where it may not even be safe to use because copiers don’t bother with quality checks most of the time. All your buying is something that looks like the product you want. The stuff always breaks or falls apart. I have found myself at a point now where I just can’t support that from a moral standpoint. It doesn’t take much effort to make a few small changes to a design to either improve it or make it unique. Buy the best kit you can afford and set the tempest as a goal down the road. You’ll be less likely to be injured and you will have a goal to work towards.

 

There is a bowyer who’s making a Kodiak 59 replica but not sold as Kodiak’59. Is this an issue? Is he paying royalties to Bear? From what I know he bought the forms long time ago and that’s it - if I am wrong, my bad. But nobody went out of the way saying will never buy the bow since it’s not a “real” one. And that’s a real clone, not knock-off. If I look closely to the Tempest clone, there are no cut-outs at the limb pockets, it uses the usual screw in - screw out LLA, and above all it’s not called Tempest.
Unethical for me is to buy a fake and pretend is Tempest or Hoyt. The rest is personal choice.
PS This answer is from buyer’s pov. Intellectual property theft is another thing, but without patent or International bowyers association nothing can be done. We are arguing here while the bows are sold worldwide.

 

I started the post just wanting to know if anyone liked the bow. I'm sorry it started some disagreements. I wish I never posted now.

 

No worries Heeney, thanks for starting this thread. Some good words came out of it and it's always good to hear all sides of a debate. Healthy.

My takeaway: buy the bow you like that you can afford that's got good reviews and isn't labelled as another bow (counterfeit). Then you are not being deceived. As Draven pointed out the one you like is not a 100% copy anyway, many differences. No blood spilled.

Then get out there and shoot arrows with the thing.