Iv been shooting with a finger sling. when I shoot the bow after the shot it tips back about 1/4" so pretty close to being balenced for me. My question is how far forward do I want the bow to go? Is there a rule of thumb for this? Im asking so I know how much weight I need to thread into the stab hole. Thank you for your input.
jipp
Being new to the stabilizer/roll forward relationship here is what I have found so far:
1. You want the top limb to roll forward (away from the archer)
2. The rate of roll is what you control with the stabilizer and what you choose is what is comfortable for you. Some like no roll, some like slow roll and a few like a fast roll.
I am in the process of setting up an Aerotec and am playing around with stabs and weights to come up with something that feels good to me.
-mike
1. You want the top limb to roll forward (away from the archer)
2. The rate of roll is what you control with the stabilizer and what you choose is what is comfortable for you. Some like no roll, some like slow roll and a few like a fast roll.
I am in the process of setting up an Aerotec and am playing around with stabs and weights to come up with something that feels good to me.
-mike
jipp,
Stabilizers? We don't need no stinkin' stabilizers...no, wait a minute. That's a line from a movie, isn't it?
On a more serious note, I asked about this on ArcheryTalk, questioning why it was desirable for the bow to roll/tile forward instead of just being ballanced to simpley hang there. I can't honestly say I ever got a straight answer.
I add weight to all my bows and they pretty much hang vertically from the finger sling when I shoot. I like it that way but according to the FITA/NAA crowd I'm doing it wrong. (questioning face goes here)
Dave
Stabilizers? We don't need no stinkin' stabilizers...no, wait a minute. That's a line from a movie, isn't it?
On a more serious note, I asked about this on ArcheryTalk, questioning why it was desirable for the bow to roll/tile forward instead of just being ballanced to simpley hang there. I can't honestly say I ever got a straight answer.
I add weight to all my bows and they pretty much hang vertically from the finger sling when I shoot. I like it that way but according to the FITA/NAA crowd I'm doing it wrong. (questioning face goes here)
Dave
That is intresting. In my thinking you would want more of a even balence.
Seems to me with the bow falling forward there is a chance of the nock getting hit and fouling up the shot. i can understand not wanting the bow to fall back as it the arrow rest could hit the arrow and it would fly way high.
but then I guess the arrow has probably left the bows point of contact way before the bow shifts its momentum in one direction or another.
Only benfit i can see with letting the bow fall forward is to help with keep form/follow through. IE.. dont move your bow arm till the bow is hanging.
i dunno, im back to where I started. laughs, Ill just throw a stab on and see what happens.
Seems to me with the bow falling forward there is a chance of the nock getting hit and fouling up the shot. i can understand not wanting the bow to fall back as it the arrow rest could hit the arrow and it would fly way high.
but then I guess the arrow has probably left the bows point of contact way before the bow shifts its momentum in one direction or another.
Only benfit i can see with letting the bow fall forward is to help with keep form/follow through. IE.. dont move your bow arm till the bow is hanging.
i dunno, im back to where I started. laughs, Ill just throw a stab on and see what happens.
I believe that the maximum benefit of weights/stabilizer AND tiller is to have the bow recoil straight forward during the shot, directly at aim point. You do not want it kicking up –or down—just out. BTW the bow arm-form, stance, back pressure and release maintain left/right. :2cents:
Unless you drop your arm at release :lol
Unless you drop your arm at release :lol
Van,
I agree with you and my "barebow recurves" are set up to do just that. But you wouldn't believe the run around I got over on ArcheryTalk from the FITA shooters, who are all convinced the bow has to rotate foward and down. No one ever gave me any logical explanation why this was the desired reaction but they all swore it was how things were supposed to go after the shot.
I suspect it is an advanced case of someone winning (perhaps an Olympic Gold) and they bow reacted this way...so now everyone has to do it like that.
I'm still willing to be educated, but until then I'm with you. When I shoot my bow goes straight foward until it hits the finger sling, then drops down until it is caught and hangs there in a verticle position.
Dave
I agree with you and my "barebow recurves" are set up to do just that. But you wouldn't believe the run around I got over on ArcheryTalk from the FITA shooters, who are all convinced the bow has to rotate foward and down. No one ever gave me any logical explanation why this was the desired reaction but they all swore it was how things were supposed to go after the shot.
I suspect it is an advanced case of someone winning (perhaps an Olympic Gold) and they bow reacted this way...so now everyone has to do it like that.
I'm still willing to be educated, but until then I'm with you. When I shoot my bow goes straight foward until it hits the finger sling, then drops down until it is caught and hangs there in a verticle position.
Dave
DA..I'm with you and Van on the stab. thing. I weight mine so they just hang there after the shot, straight up no forward roll. And like Van said, the bow jumps straight ahead until stopped by my finger sling. Don't have much use for a bow that trys to roll backward to nearly hit you in the head when you shoot. I also can't figure out why the FITA guys want the bow to slowly roll forward so the upper limb is pointed at the target after the shot. Where's Limbwalker when you need him...lol...warf
On the high speed film I have watched the arrow leaves the bow, which never appears to move until the arrow is well away. Then the bow tips forward.
Esquire, I've seen that too, which is a big part of the reason I don't understand the advantage of the bow tilting forward.
Like Bob said, I'd love to have Limbwalker explain this one to us.
Dave
Like Bob said, I'd love to have Limbwalker explain this one to us.
Dave
I get the "FITA roll" on my FITA bow. I believe the action is more just the result of the stabilizers used.
I can't imagine being able to achieve that roll with either riser weights or short stabilizers. The longer stabilizers make the bow more stable during the aiming and execution of the shot. This is why, while the stabilizers are long they are still relatively light with most using a 2-5oz (or so) weight on the end.
For illustration take a 6" long stick and hold it in your hand at arms reach and try to move it back and forth. Pretty easy huh? Now take a 4' broom handle and try to do the same thing. It's a lot more difficult. So the longer stabilizer will help counteract slight forces that might be apt to move you off of the gold.
You get the roll as a product of maintaining your form and bow arm toward the target during the follow through. Remember it takes a long time for an arrow to go 90m. The only thing I have really ever heard cautioned was not to use so much weight on the tip of the stabilizer so that it began the roll before the arrow cleared.
There are also considerations to have a perfect balance of the bow during the pre-draw/drawing portion of the shot. My understanding is many guys are looking for a certain feel that keeps the bow level with a "neutral" feel. To be honest this is beyond my current abilities to decipher during the shot.
Maybe Limbwalker will chime in and clear things up.
I can't imagine being able to achieve that roll with either riser weights or short stabilizers. The longer stabilizers make the bow more stable during the aiming and execution of the shot. This is why, while the stabilizers are long they are still relatively light with most using a 2-5oz (or so) weight on the end.
For illustration take a 6" long stick and hold it in your hand at arms reach and try to move it back and forth. Pretty easy huh? Now take a 4' broom handle and try to do the same thing. It's a lot more difficult. So the longer stabilizer will help counteract slight forces that might be apt to move you off of the gold.
You get the roll as a product of maintaining your form and bow arm toward the target during the follow through. Remember it takes a long time for an arrow to go 90m. The only thing I have really ever heard cautioned was not to use so much weight on the tip of the stabilizer so that it began the roll before the arrow cleared.
There are also considerations to have a perfect balance of the bow during the pre-draw/drawing portion of the shot. My understanding is many guys are looking for a certain feel that keeps the bow level with a "neutral" feel. To be honest this is beyond my current abilities to decipher during the shot.
Maybe Limbwalker will chime in and clear things up.
Scott,
I thought V-Bars and counter weights were ment to off-set the effect of the long stabilizer. With those adjusted properly I would think even an Olympic recurve shooter with a 36-40 inch stabilizer could get the bow to just hang vertically. Still not seeing the advantage in the forward roll.
Dave
I thought V-Bars and counter weights were ment to off-set the effect of the long stabilizer. With those adjusted properly I would think even an Olympic recurve shooter with a 36-40 inch stabilizer could get the bow to just hang vertically. Still not seeing the advantage in the forward roll.
Dave
V Bars and counterweights are not meant to offset the weight of the long rod. If they did, there'd be no reason for either. V Bars are to counteract bow torque and cant. Counterweights are to balance the vertical aspect of the bow at draw and anchor. Scooter's got it right. Allowing the bow to tip forward after the shot is the result of an open loose grip combined with a bow sling and serves to telegraph to the archer whether he/she has induced any unwanted forces during the shot, i.e. heeling the grip, torqueing the grip, dropping the bow arm, etc. If you watch slo-mo videos of Olympic archers, you will see the bow actually jump forward in the archer's bow hand about an inch before the sling catches it and then it should tip forward long after the arrow has left.
Being a longbow shooter im not allowed any stabilisers but in my compound days i always had my bow set up so that it was perfectly balanced. On release the bow would just move forward and be stopped by my bow sling. No forward tipping.
Tipping back of the bow should be avoided at all costs.
Tipping back of the bow should be avoided at all costs.
Dave the V bars and extenders move the CG forward but also control the side to side tipping (canting). Again the roll as I see it is just a product of having that weigh so far forward. Something that is not practical for hunting or not allowed in FITA barebow circles.
Jipp,jipp said:
It would depend on which stab you decide to use. If you choose a hydraulic style the 6 to 8 oz is plenty. A solid metal one 8 to 12 oz and a damper type like a doinker can be from 6 to 9 oz. Lenght should be 6" plus.
The doinker or hydraulic type help with dampening better than a solid metal one thus the light weight can be used.
The weight used would also depend on weather you use a bow quiver or not. I would used the heavier with a quiver and a lighter without. A couple of oz's would help balance out the bow quiver.
Yeah to get back on track for the question that was asked. I prefer my bows to at least maintain a neutral balance after the shot (no tipping back). The weight that Bob adds in his warf risers do this nicely as does the weight kit available for the DAS. Beyond that for a hunting bow I add just a small 2 and 3/4" stabilizer for added vibration absorption and balance. My DAS just tips slightly forward at the shot.
I have trouble shooting a bow that doesnt have a neutral balance,and I prefer a bow that tips forward slightly with a very loose grip..Something that I havent ever firgured out is why most Trad bows actually tip back toward the shooter when held loosely...Every longbow that Ive shot did this , and almost every recurve did the same...If there is anything that I dont like about Hoyt's "TEC" risers, is that They seem to need a bit more weight/length out front, to get this Neutral balance thing just right...It also seems more important to me, if the bow is shot off of a rest, as opposed to being shot off of the shelf...Harpman
Most traditional recurves and even a few of the R/D longbows have a deflex handle design. A deflex design has a natural tendency to tip back. The exact opposite for a reflex design. All else being equal you need more weight or length on the stabilizer to balance a deflex design than a reflex one.
If the bow rolls forward, it doesn't hurt. If it rolls back toward you, not so good. If it cocks right or left, that's very, very bad. In my opinion, the value of the stabilizer is in preventing a "roll back" and minimizing right/left torquing. If it's going forward toward the target, it isn't going to take your arrow off line. Stable in the hand is good, too. I prefer that, myself, but if the bow needs more stabilizer to tame it down, I'll accept the "FITA Roll".
Just in case anybody is reading this and wondering what the "FITA roll" is, click this link and download the Park Sung Hyun video. http://miika.aulio.fi/videot/
A FITA roll is a lot like a spicy tuna roll except that it's got fresh, raw, FITA instead of tuna. 
Sushi anyone?!
Sushi anyone?!
Stabilizers and shooting
To roll or not to roll,
The use of stablizers are to make the bow less able to move from the natural movement that your bow arm may produce. duh
I am at work now so i don't have acces to the link but one of the downsides of stablizers is that they can hide flaws in form. The website recommended that kinks in the form get worked out before stablizers are used. A torquing to the left or right is most likely bad form and I would not spend the money on a stablizer.
however, when form has been worked out, stablizers is needed for the long shots. I wouldn't worry about the FITA roll if you have good form and hitting the mark.
To roll or not to roll,
The use of stablizers are to make the bow less able to move from the natural movement that your bow arm may produce. duh
I am at work now so i don't have acces to the link but one of the downsides of stablizers is that they can hide flaws in form. The website recommended that kinks in the form get worked out before stablizers are used. A torquing to the left or right is most likely bad form and I would not spend the money on a stablizer.
however, when form has been worked out, stablizers is needed for the long shots. I wouldn't worry about the FITA roll if you have good form and hitting the mark.
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
