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Seems I got published again.

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1.5K views 22 replies 7 participants last post by  Hank  
#1 ·
#3 ·
Scooter said:
I'd vote for it.

Saw this quote somewhere.

"A liberal is a man that feels a huge debt to society, a debt which he proposes to pay with your money"
Scott,

Kind of like Bush and his Iraq adventure. What are we up to now in throwing money down a sandy hole??? :cheers:

Jim
 
#5 ·
But a conservative is a man who owes a huge debt and doesn't intend to pay at all.
 
#6 ·
greenghost said:
But a conservative is a man who owes a huge debt and doesn't intend to pay at all.
How do I sign up to be that kind of conservative? I get no government subsidies or entitlements but pay through the nose in taxes. Not paying at all sounds mighty good but wouldn't I have to quit my job and quit making money in order to do that? And how could I be a conservative if I did that?

:help:
 
#7 ·
PapaBull said:
How do I sign up to be that kind of conservative? I get no government subsidies or entitlements but pay through the nose in taxes. Not paying at all sounds mighty good but wouldn't I have to quit my job and quit making money in order to do that? And how could I be a conservative if I did that?

:help:
PB

Do like most of the conservatives I know, file for Bankruptcy. Or better yet get ordained as a minister seems to work great for my Neocon son-in-law. He received an 8K refund last year. :cheers:
When a customer starts talking conservative politics with me, I usually figure I'm going to get screwed. One thing I've learned is the ones with the most intend on keeping it that way. :)

Jim
 
#8 ·
papa, a lot of people invested a lot of money in the infrastructure of this country before your dad was a twinkle in your grandfather's eye. And without that infrastructure, you'd be driving your oxcart down a dirt road (if you were lucky).

That is the problem with conservatives--they take for granted everything that has been given to them and then bitch about people who haven't been given as much.
 
#9 ·
greenghost said:
papa, a lot of people invested a lot of money in the infrastructure of this country before your dad was a twinkle in your grandfather's eye. And without that infrastructure, you'd be driving your oxcart down a dirt road (if you were lucky).

That is the problem with conservatives--they take for granted everything that has been given to them and then bitch about people who haven't been given as much.
And the problem with liberals is that they take everything that has been given for granted, want more still and insist that everyone else pays for it.

What was built 80 years ago doesn't have much to do with the pork belly politics I pay for today - and pay for it and pay for it ..... that's the problem with working your arse off to earn a better living.... the liberals want to take all your "excess" so that the guys who don't want to work for it can receive all their just rewards for your labor, too.
 
#10 ·
papa, if only it were that simple, I'd agree. But the FACT is that it just isn't that simple.

'Course, we've been here before. As I recall, you claimed that you didn't need to read the "latest crackpot ideas from some lefty academics" (or something more or less to that effect), apparently because you already "know" all the right answers and have a perfect understanding of all facets of political economy. So there isn't much point, I suppose, in arguing.

But... On your view, it is a simple matter to disentangle what percentage of your material wealth depends solely on your own personal initiative and private associations from what percentage depends on publically funded social goods. Basically, you take your gross pre-tax income and subtract some percentage for those components of government (such as military, police, judicial, etc) which we all agree must be paid for as public goods. Maybe your think that percentage should be a flat tax or some progressive tax. However, you figure it, you then subtract that much from your gross income and the remainder is "your money" which is determined entirely by your effort.

But, unfortunately, that just isn't right. First, many of the advantages that you have over other people are unearned. You are a smart guy. Because of this, you are more competitive than other folks in a technologically driven economy. Did you earn that level of intelligence? Of course not! General intelligence (IQ), we know, is about 50% genetic and about 50% developmental environment. But you didn't earn any of your genetic endowment and very little if any of your developmental environment. You no more earned your IQ than Shaq earned his height. Of course, you are to be applauded for what you have done with what you were given, just as Shaq is. (Just as Maurice Clarett is to be condemned for what he has done with what he was given.) But that is a different issue. Because you started at an unearned economic advantage relative to some people and an unearned economic disadvantage relative to others (intelligence, obviously, being an economic commidity), it is simply a mistake to say that your current material situation is unconditionally earned. It isn't. There ain't no two ways about it.

And this is just one example among thousands. Are you better looking that average? If so, you will probably be more successful economically. Are you tall? Ditto. Are you able to control you emotions (see Daniel Goleman, Emotional Intelligence)? Were your parents relatively well off? And on and on it goes. These are all largely unearned characteristics which are uncontroversially correlated with your level of economic success.

Second, there is simply no way to disentangle your current economic status from government policies (good or bad) which go beyond the so-called minimal state. You can argue that the minimal state (with some associated tax structure) is the most defensible form of state (see Nozick, Anarchy, State, and Utopia). However, in light of the above considerations about unearned advantages, there is a strong case to be made that this is a mistake (see Rawls, A Theory of Justice and Political Liberalism; or, for a general overview, Will Kymlicka, Contemporary Political Philosophy). But what you can't argue is that your current gross income is independent of the governmental policies, including the tax policies, of the state in which you currently live. Change the state and not only will your net income change, so will your gross income. And change the policies "all the way back" and your gross income will change radically (that was the point of the hyperbolic "oxcart" comment).

Finally, which state (and so which tax system) is most defensible isn't simply an economic question. That is, it isn't simply a question of which state generates the highest GDP over the long run. It is also a moral question. To see this, simply note that it is very likely that a communist market economy (e.g., like China) will generate the largest GDP in the long run--but I hope that such contingencies won't turn you into a died-in-the-wool commie!

No. Where you and big government liberals disagree is largely over our social moral priniciples and the best general means for discharging those obligations. You apear to believe that the unearned advantages you enjoy don't generate any social obligations. Though, you might think that they do, but disagree with liberals that coercive redistribution of wealth is the best way of getting achieving general conformity to those obligations. Which is it?
 
#11 ·
So we're back to "To each according to his needs; from each according to his means"?

I spent enough time living in poverty to realize there had to be some way out. Turned out that way was working... real hard. Putting my Joe Sixpack Beer money to things like another book or a new tool instead of the six-pack. It was one long, hard, road with lots of work and little money for a long time.

So now when I hear some Marxist nonsense about how I now need to take the money I'm trying to prepare a retirement with and give it to those "less fortunate" (like Uncle Sam, of all things) in an ever-escalating amount, it just pizzes me off. Geesh, I was 38 before I could afford to put anything into a retirement account and have quite a bit of catching up to do.

The fact that liberals always want to raise taxes on the rich, but only ever give tax breaks to the poor just makes me want to flay the bastages alive. The "rich" aren't always so damned rich and the poor don't have to be so damned poor - and besides, I HATE having politicians trying to earn votes by promising my tax dollars to be spent as entitlements to their constuents.
 
#13 ·
Heathen said:
PB,

How are we to spread democracy around the world without taxing the living $hit out of us?
Nice punt. It might be a nice objective, but it's not the one we're pursuing. Besides, it's got nothing to do with the liberal agenda of wealth redistribution through taxation and entitlements.
 
#14 ·
>>So we're back to "To each according to his needs; from each according to his means"?<<

There are readings of this slogan on which it strikes me as so obviously correct that it hardly requires defense and readings of it on which it strikes me as so obviously wrong that it hardly requires rebuttal. One issue, of course, is what counts as a need. Another issue is how the slogan is qualified by the surrounding theory. To try to rebut me by insinuating that I am committed to some vaguely Marxist, but wholly unspecific, slogan is just silly.

All political theorizing starts with an answer to the following basic question: Why have a state rather than none? Why not anarchy? [Note: a state, by definition, is a social authority with coercive power. So there are non-state social institutions.]

And papering over a lot of disagreement, most political philosophers have thought that the answer to this had something to do with the fact that we could all be better off under state government than in a nongovernmental state. And if you think about it a bit, you will see that this is a pretty plausible claim to make. Suppose we are in a hypothetical situation and we are trying to decide on whether or not we should institute a state government. If either of us (or both) are more likely to be worse off in the state than outside it, then we should not join. The fact that a state might make things better for you is of little real interest to me unless it will also make things better for me.

But this relatively uncontroversial point immediately raises a very difficult question: how good or bad would things be without a state? And how you answer this question is important because the better off you think things would be in the state of nature, the more you will demand of a state.

It also raises a second important and difficult question: which sort of state? On some views (like Hobbes's), darn near any form of state authority is better than the state of nature. But does that mean you should be indifferent between monarchy, democracy and communism? Of course not! How, then, to decide?

John Rawls proposed the following test (I am taking liberties with it). Pretend you have the complete range of possible modern societies spread out in front of you. You have a good grasp of all the economic and social demographics of each one. Your task is to decide which society to join given that you have no idea whatever who you will be in that society. This condition Rawls dubbed the Veil of Ignorance. In fact, he demanded that you don't even know how likely it is that you will be in one situation rather than another. So you don't have any idea how likely it is that you will be born rich or poor, handsome or ugly, athletic or disabled, male or female, minority or majority, smart or dumb, etc. Basically, what Rawls argued is that a rational person would opt for a society that allowed inequalities only if those inequalities were not gained at the expense of natural rights and were to the benefit of the least priveleged members of society.

I will post some of my notes on Rawls seperately for anybody who is interested.
 
#15 ·
The Lockean conception of society: society is a cooperative venture in which we engage for our mutual advantage. That is, it is only because each individual cooperates that everybody does better.

Thus, in a Lockean society we can expect society as a whole to become increasingly “wealthy”. But so far we have no method of dividing up this increased wealth in a just or fair manner. Call this the problem of distributive justice. (I’ll return to the issue of rights later.)

One possibility is to divide it up according to The Straight Rule: everybody gets an equal share. This is really a naive form of Marxism. Assuming that everybody pulls their own weight, this does seem like a reasonably fair way of dividing the wealth. But is it the best we can do?

Rawls thinks not. What he suggests is the following general conception of distributive justice: All social primary goods are to be distributed equally unless an unequal distribution of any or all of these goods is to the advantage of the least favoured members of society.

It is helpful to see what Rawls is driving at to introduce the concept of an inequality surplus: An inequality surplus occurs whenever an unequal distribution (of future goods), by eliciting greater output, increases the productivity of an activity enough that even after the unequal payoffs have been made their is enough left over to give extra to those who did not receive any additional payoff from the original distribution.

Example: Suppose you have a shop that has sixty workers occupy six roles all of whom are paid exactly the same amount. Suppose that the net annual income of this shop is $600,000. So each worker is paid $10,000 per year. Now suppose that we can increase the net annual income of the shop by deciding to pay those workers in two of the ‘bottleneck’ jobs an extra $5,000 and suppose that 10 workers in all are needed for these bottleneck jobs. So the bottleneck jobs will require an additional $50,000 per year in salary.

Now, if the increase in income is less than $50,000, then the difference will have to come out of the pay of the other workers. That is, their salary will drop below its original $10,000. Clearly it would not be in the best interest of the other 50 workers to agree to this distribution.

But suppose that the increase in income is, say, $100,000. Now there will be $50,000 dollars left over after everyone has been paid that can be distributed among the 50 workers who had remained at the original salary level. Thus, these individual’s will now receive an annual salary of $11,000 or $1,000 more than they would have made under the old distribution scheme. Assuming that nobody is envious of the higher paid workers, there will be unanimous agreement to the new distribution scheme.


However, even though the general conception is a good start, it does not tell us how to balance trade offs between, for instance, restricting freedom and growing wealth. Because of this Rawls gives us the following, more complicated scheme:

The Principles of Justice:

First Principle: Each person is to have an equal right to the most extensive total system of equal basic liberties compatible with a similar system of liberty for all.

Second Princple (The Difference Principle): Social and economic inequalities are to be arranged so that they are both:
(a) to the greatest benefit of the least advantaged, and
(b) attached to offices and positions open to all under conditions of fair equality of opportunity.

The Priority Rules:

First Priority Rule: Liberty is more important than (takes precedence over) equality of opportunity and equality of resources. That is, the first principle is lexically prior to the second. Thus, liberty can only be restricted for the sake of liberty.

Second Priority Rule: Equality of opportunity takes precedence over equality of resources or increases in overall wealth.

The Intuitive Argument:

(1) It is fair for individuals to have unequal shares of social goods if those inequalities are earned or deserved by the person receiving them.

(2) In the same way that social inequalities are undeserved (they result merely from the class, race, gender, etc. into which you were born), so inequalities in natural talents are undeserved (they result merely from the genes you happened to get).

(3) The only way for inequalities resulting from underserved natural talents to, themselves, be deserved is if they are to the benefit of the least fortunate.

(4) Therefore, the higher expectations of the naturally talented are just if and only if they also improve the expectations of the least fortunate members of society (i.e. The Difference Principle).




A More Substantive Look at Rawls’ Theory:

We need principles of social justice to provide:

1. a way of assigning rights and duties, and
2. a way of distributing the benefits and burdens of cooperation.

The individuals making up society have the following characteristics:
1. They make decisions on the basis of enlightened self interest.
2. They have roughly similar needs and interests.
3. They are roughly equal.
4. They are not envious (in the sense that they would not allow their envy to keep them from acting on the basis of their enlightened self interest).

Think of these individuals as participating in a non zero sum cooperative game (that is, a game in which there doesn’t have to be winners and losers, everyone can win). The purpose of the game is for the players to arrive at unanimous agreement on a set of principles that will define social justice for the society.

What we want is for the individuals in the bargaining game to come to a unanimous decision on just what these principles should be. Once settled on, these principles cannot be altered. Given the conditions we would expect individuals to reason as follows:
1. I want to get as much as I can (self interest).
2. Therefore, I will try to get principles that are tailored to my situation.
3. However, my situation might change and
4. My opponents will not agree to such proposals, but will try to get proposals which favor themselves.
5. Therefore,, I should try for an equal distribution of resources.
6. But suppose that an unequal distribution led to an inequality surplus.
7. If I hold out for an equal distribution of the surplus, I can be assured of being better off than I otherwise would have been.
8. But I will not accept an unequal distribution that pushes some people (maybe me) below the equality threshold.
Hence, the bargainer will unanimously agree on the two principles of justice given above.

Criticism

Though Rawls stipulates that members of society are “roughly equal” in power and ability, there is still a lot of room for variation. Given this, it would be reasonably well known to the bargainers what their talents and abilities were. This leads to problems:

1. First, with respect to Principle IIa Rawls is basically assuming that bargainers will adopt a “maximin” strategy. That is, that the bargainers will try to maximize what they would get if they were in the worst off or minimum situation. But if you have natural talents, and you know you have them, you can be relatively sure that you will end up somewhere above the minimum position. Thus, you will not agree to IIa, but would prefer some other principle of unequal distribution. Those who know that they are not naturally talented would want IIa. Hence, we would not get unanimous agreement.

2. Second, with respect to Principle IIb. The idea that the favored position be open to all is ambiguous. It could mean that it is open to all under fair competition or it could mean that it is open to all by, say, lottery. Clearly those who are naturally talented will prefer the first and those who are not will prefer the second. So, once again, we fail to get unanimous agreement.

Rawls’ response to the criticism based on natural talents is to introduce the concept of a veil of ignorance. That is, the bargainers are thought of as reasoning in the absence of knowledge concerning their place in society (i.e. their position or social status) and their place in the distribution of natural talents (i.e. intelligence, strength, looks, etc.). They are also denied knowledge of the likelihood that they are in such positions.

However, the bargainers cannot be totally ignorant of the structure of society or they would not be able to reason at all. So we allow them a fairly rich knowledge of society, just not how they fit into it nor enough for them to figure out where they probably fit into it.

The most important aspect of the bargainer’s reasoning behind the veil of ignorance involves the notion of leading a life. Basically, whatever the differences are between people’s conception of the good life, we know that certain things are needed in order to pursue that ideal. Call these things which are common to all conceptions of the good life “primary goods”.

Primary goods come in two varieties: (1) Social primary goods such as liberty and wealth can be directly distributed by social institutions. (2) Natural primary goods, such as health and intelligence, cannot.

Behind the veil of ignorance, bargainers will try to ensure that they will have the best possible access to social primary goods, because having these will by definition give them the best possible capacity for pursuing their own interests (i.e. their own conception of the good life). But since the bargainers don’t know who they are or who they are likely to be, they will adopt the minimax strategy of reasoning.
 
#16 ·
"you might think that they do, but disagree with liberals that coercive redistribution of wealth is the best way of getting achieving general conformity to those obligations."

I volunteer to disagree with anyone who thinks that coercive redistribution of wealth is the best way of getting achieving general conformity to those [social] obligations.

I would also ask anyone who thinks such a thing to study history. That particular social experiment has been a grotesque failure for each and every one of its dark resurrections throughout history.

BTW,

Hope you had a great Christmas, Marc. What is the end result of your hunting season? Or are you there yet?

Mike
 
#18 ·
Mike, I'm not sure what you have in mind when you say that distributive justice is a grotesque failure. In point of fact, redistribution of wealth is embraced by every major political school of thought that is seriously contempated at all. Unless you are debating an anarchist, there is no question over whether redistribution should occur; the debate is over how much and in what form.

Minimal state theorists (most closely approximated politically by libertarians) think that said redistribution should be restricted entirely to the means necessary to support a minimal state and the associated public goods. Various forms of egalitarian socialism go to the opposite extreme and basically require redistribution of wealth (in some form or other) so that everyone's standard of living is roughly equal. To my knowledge, there has never been any actual political system put into practice. The closest we get are the various European socialist democracies (but these are a far cry from egalitarian redistribution schemes). In fact, I doubt that anybody thinks that you could run a viable market economy together with a wholly egalitarian redistribution scheme.

(As an aside: I do think that history shows us two things. (1) that laissez faire capitalism is an untenable economic system and (2) that Marxist-style state ownership of the economic infrastructure is untenable.)

In any event, it is in between these two extremes that most of the interesting discussion occurs. For example, what Rawls is arguing is that there is a sensible rationale for inegalitarian distributive justice. Rawls's point is that it makes sense from the point of view of even the poorest members of society to allow some people to become filthy rich IF doing so has a pay-off in their own standard of living.

Now some people think that there is no question of "allowing the rich to keep their own money", it is in some sense a natural right. But this just runs into the confusion I noted above, that there is some objective way of disentangling what you have earned from what you haven't (e.g., in the form of pre-tax income). All of us rely on unearned advantages to gain wealth. Putting aside the issue of natural talents, we all exploit the the state system to gain and retain wealth. Take away the state, take away the Internet; take away the state, take away the highway system; take away the state, take away an educated working class; take away the state, take away the enforcement of laws and protection from foreign invasion; etc. None of us could even begin to calculate our economic situation independent of the particular governmental schemes that are in place and have been in place over time. (Maybe if you are Amish you can get in the ball park, but I doubt it.)
 
#19 ·
Hmmm...

I actually said coerced redistribution of wealth was a failure - but I see that we could have been meaning different things, and probably were.
But what about the hunting?
 
#20 ·
Yeah, probably so.

I got skunked for bow season, though I was into elk most everyday out. So all in all the bow season was pretty exciting and I learned a good deal about the country around here. (This is only my second year in Wyoming.) I am somewhat optimistic about tagging out next year.

Fortunately, I was able to put some meat in the freezer with the rifle: 2 antelope (buck and doe), 1 mulie buck, 1 cow elk. One of the most enjoyable things was being able to share some with family over the holidays. For Christmas, we had a bone-in antelope roast with fresh morels. For the new year (also my 10th anniversary) I made some nice hazel nut crusted elk tenderloins in a port wine sauce.

Hazel Nut Encrusted Elk Tenderloins in Port Wine Sauce.

To make the tenderloins: set out three flat bowls. One with beaten eggs, one with flour, one with finely chopped hazelnuts. Dredge the tenderloins in the eggs, then in the flour, and then press them firmly into the chopped hazelnuts. Melt some butter (I use Smart Balance) in a skillet and brown the outsides of the tenderloins. Transfer to a pan and bake at about 375 degrees for 5-10 min.

To make the port sauce (enough for about 8 tenderloins):

1 scallion minced
1 cup port wine (be sure to use something fairly good and sturdy)
1/4 cup red wine vinegar
1 cup heavy cream
1 cup butter (or Smart Balance, or mixture. I actually use less than a cup)

Put the port wine, vinegar and scallion into a skillet. Bring to a boil and reduce by about 3/4 (i.e., cook it down). Add cream. Return to boil and reduce by 3/4 again. Reduce heat to lowest possible setting. Add chips of the butter slowly until all used up. (If you add too much at a time, especially early, the sauce will separate.)

BTW, congrats on your doe. Quite an achievement.
 
#21 ·
Thanks,

Between my son and I we have 3 sets of tenderloins in the freezer. Your recipe looks good. I'm going to give it a try. Thanks for posting it. Sounds like a heck of a rifle season! Next archery will be on you before you know it...

Mike
 
#23 ·
Conservatives always bring up the welfare issue. We should also give up corporate welfare and quit doing business with companies that get off shore accounts like Haliburton that got many of the contracts in Iraq. Thats not very patriotic.

The Conservatives always throw us into deep debt and then claim their policies later created the surplus. Sorry, information and reaction moves way too fast for that to be true. Maybe they still think it is 1776.

What about the waste of money in washington period?

Many times programs that help people, such as getting through school, are paid back many times over in jobs and taxes created by the success of the person using the help. It doesn't hurt to invest in ourselves for the strength and good for all.

I like the current energy plan -- give tax cuts to energy companies making record profits, brilliant. And you know they are not going to invest in, or develop any new energy strategies until the oil levels start to get really low.

Nice to hear a voice of political reason on here greenghost.

Hank