Just tossing this out for consideration, Viper. I wonder if you may be seeing the practical effect of "better cast". That terminology has been lost in recent years but I remember when I got into this stuff the first time (back in the dark ages - LOL) everyone referred to the cast of the bow to describe the performance, not speed like we hear today. I have read/been told that two bows pulling the same pounds do not necessarily have the same performance, even at similar speeds (velocities).

Now to my point. You have seen and participated in some of the discussions here about modern ILF limbs and how they are better than many other designs, even custom bows from some top makers. You know from shooting rifles that higher velocity produces a lower point of impact. Could what you are seeing be the result of the "better cast" you are getting from the Hoyt Radian and it's modern, high performance limbs?

Dave

 

DA,

I think he's saying the opposite--for the same point of aim, the arrow is impacting lower. This implies a slower speed.

I recently got a couple of Roberts D97 continous loop strings and am having the opposite problem--I've got to lower my aimpoint about 6" at 20 yards compared to what I'm used to. If Vipers on using a low stretch string on this rig, that might be a way to make the aiming more consistent with the other bows.

Ken

 

Just a thought, but How different is the grip from your other bows? I cant speak universally, but wrist position and height of rest above my grip seems to play into where the arrows impact from bow to bow. The lower the wrist, it seems the higher the impact, but this could vary from shooter to shooter.

 

Mike beat me to it (grip). That's the first thing I though of. The radian has a very unique grip (modules) and came with a rather high version of what they called a medium grip. I had the same grip on a compound and hated it. I switched to the low (which felt more like e medium to me) and ground it down some more. I know when I have toyed with a high grip/wrist on recurves I seem to get a low impact point.

 

Viper...You know of course that some barebow archers would just about kill to have a narrower gap at 20 yds from what they have now. If your shooting about 8" lower at 20 and with the same arrow and arrow speed and same anchor I would have to think grip but that Radion has the same grip as the Avalon, and other late model Hoyt's so I would rule out the grip as you prpbably have other fita risers with the same grip and don't have the low arrow problem with them. Maybe play with the tiller a bit and see if that brings the arrow up where you want it. Tiller will change things to a point but still is fun to mess with. Interesting problem with the low groups, good luck finding a easy solutition...warf

 

viper1

I ran into this problem when I changed the serving on a bow string just last week.

I couldn't believe just how much difference it made and everything else was the same. Same bow, limbs, arrows, grip, anchor, etc.

With the new serving my nocks were just a touch too tight on the string. Consistant and low.

Just a thought.

Lane

 

Bob,

I think your thinking of the Elan. The Radian had that rounded machined area on the riser where the web of your hand rides and the replaceable wood modules for the palm swell. It was a different grip and I know some had problems with it.

The elan, avalon matrix etc. all had basicaly the same grip.

 

Tony,

A few things come to mind...grip, rest elevation height and sight window.

There are some bows I hit high and right with and I personally believe it has more to do with the sight window affecting my sight picture. An OL longbow is one of them that I have to adjust to.

I consider myself an instictive gap shooter, so my sight picture, which includes my sight window, is very important in relationship to the target, which affects the feel of my aiming system.

Ray

 

Can't say for sure if this applies to your probrem, but I have a story that might be related. Went to a local shoot when at the second target the hickory backing on my bow cracked. My buddy ran back to his car and got an osage bow for me to shoot. It was a crude thing with no defined handle area or rest. Started shooting the thing and it was shooting way high on every target , just couldn't get used to lowering my sight picture. So I turned the bow upside down and bingo my sight picture tightened up considerably. I figured it had to do with the tiller or more precisely the limb recovery or timing. Just a thought.

Todd

 

Velocity would be the first thing I'd suspect, although Viper said the bow is in the same velocity range. Still, "in the same velocity range" sounds like perception rather than something measured, so I thought I 'd throw that out first.

Now, presuming that isn't the problem and that the bow is within a 3 or 4 feet per second of the other bows, the next thing I would have to suggest evaluating is the bow's tiller. This can move the perceived point of impact up or down by 6 or more inches at 20 yards.

Grip.... I don't know. That sounds like more difference in point of impact than a change in grips usually causes. If it isn't any of those three things, I'd be interested in knowing what it did turn out to be.

 

Looks like you beat me to it, Todd, LOL!

Velocity aside, tiller is the most likely other culprit.

 

My Bad

Sorry guys. My middle aged brain read "point of aim" when Viper said "point of impact". I retract everything I said and all the silly claims and speculation I indulged in (LOL).

Man has this been a rough weekend. Guess I'll just keep laughing at myself!

Dave

 

Tweak the tiller

Viper check the tiller on the bow and set it up similar to your others. I have had two bows before setup to shoot same speed, same nocking height above shelf. One shot about a foot higher at 20 yards. The higer hitting one had 1/16 to 1/8 tiller my other one was 1/4 to 5/16. The grips were also a bit different as well. I believe you can bring the group up by tweaking the limbs a bit.

 

Guys -

Those are some great ideas! Thanks.

Here's a little more info.

Same symptoms, even if I use the same limbs on different risers. Same string, all B-50 + #4 nylon servings, some even with the same arrows. Ditto if I switch to FF on both, but usually don't

Yes some of the bows I'm comparing it too are faster, but not all, some ar even slower.

TB4U and Scooter - You may be on to something. The Radian was Hoyt's first Aluminum OR riser, and they were still in the thinner is better mode. It has the smallest throat of any of the other bows (ILF/ORs are in the mix) I'm comparing it too. Damn nice feeling grip too too. Don't think the hight is that different, but the feel certainly is.

Ray - also a good point, the sight window may be throwing me off, being longer than some, but not all of the other bows; it's about the same size the the Gold Medalist.

I'd like to think tiller, but prety sure most are set to 0/0, to maybe 1/8" lower limb strong, you guys think, 1/8" could make that kind of a difference? ANyway, I'll check.

BTW - samething again today. Swtiched back and forth from the Radian to the Hoyt Rambo Warfer (thanks Scooter). Switching from the R to the W, nice tight groups 12 o'clock 1 ring (NFAA), resetled after a few ends, switched from the W to the R, nice tight groups 6 o'clock in the one ring. OK, the W is faster, but had similar results with my LYNX which is a tad slower.

It's nothing terrible, as I can readjust fairly quickly, but if there's a way of fixing it, I'd like too. Yeah, I know, shoot lighter arrows on the Radian and Heavier arrows on everything else!!

Thanks guys, all great answers!

Viper out.

 

DA -

Just got back from dinner, what you were saying bugged me, time to do a little more limb switching. That/cast speed thing, I do recall that there was a difference in impact at longer distances when switching limbs on the GM. Gotta try that again with the GM riser and different limbs, see if it happens again.

Thanks again guys, really appreciate it.

Viper out.

 

Viper,


Do you have a heavy stabilizer on the radian that is not on the others? I have found a heavy stabilizer will cause the bow to roll forward upon release and drop the arrow lower in the target as a result. I wasted $50 to find that out.

Robert

 

Hootsma -

Most of my bows are tuned to have a gentle forward rotation on release. So it's either a long stab with a light weight, or a short heavy stab. The bow's reaction is pretty much a constant, at least with the ones I'm comparing right now.

Could be one of two things, either DA hit on it with the cast thing, I did notice that at longer ranges the wood core limbs dropped arrow a lot faster than the carbon limbs. So, I'm going to do the mix and match thing again with two OR risers and two sets of limbs. The other thing could be the "appearance" of the face of the sight window may be throwing me off as to matching the sight pictures. It's not a conscious thing, but still.

The simplest thing would be just to stop shooting the Radian, but it's got the most comfortable grip of any of my ORs, and is really a please to shoot, pretty darn forgiving too, so not too anxious to hang it up. Just want to confirm it's the riser and not the limbs.

Tks

Viper out.