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I guess the bottom line is we are all there to have fun. As far as winning at tournaments my reality it to have fun. There's just not enough money to be won to be running around all puffed chest.
I shoot with a lot of different guys, trad, Olympic , string walkers, and face walkers. It all boils down to we have fun, bust each others chops, then go have a beer and do it again next week.
 
Oh yea,
If you shoot 3d with me and make a good 10 shot I will do my best to hit your arrow with mine. I will do it instinctively.
I expect the same from you no matter how you aim.
I shoot to have fun and never take myself to seriously
 
I think 'instinctive shooting' and 'aiming' are incompatible terms.

'Aiming' implies a system of sights and reference points. Instinctive shooting requires a total confidence in one's hand-eye co-ordination. See the target, hit the target. Does a baseball pitcher 'aim'? No, he throws thousands of balls until he can hit the corner of the strike zone consistently.

Totally by-passed the string on LW, ain't gonna get into this one.
 
I agree Dana! The fact of the matter is that those who claim to be "Instinctive" archers seemingly have to argue with others about "their" methodology.... No one else does. (dah)

The difference between it and all other methods is very simple, one either uses some peripheral in the "aiming" .... or doesn't.

There must be an intrinsic difference between archers... one that apparently requires "promotion" and the rest of it that doesn't..... For me, well, I could care less about Instinctive or whatever. The O N L Y thing that matters is having the arrow arrive at the intended point of impact! PERIOD, THE END.

Tom
PS- and I don't give a hoot what anyone else thinks about how I got it there! :)
 
I am an instinctive shot (subconscious gapper) and I know the limitations of my shooting style. That is my limitations not everyone's

I am primarily a hunter so for my self imposed hunting ranges what I do works for me. I have just started to shoot 3 D and I shoot with some very good people

My experience is this..... take an average instinctive shot and place him on a course with an average gapper and if ya don't put your money on the gapper your gonna loose

Again my style works great for me but my style was developed on close range hunting situation type shots. If I where to get serious about competing I would lean toward a gaping technique or a sight :)
 
Instinctive is used to describe an aiming style , like stringwaling is used to describe another , some wanna play with the word ,, I guess it can be said that since I never seen anybody walking on their string then string walking doesn't exist as an aiming method ,, and yeah to throw a ball you aim otherwise you could do it with you're eyes closed
It's bullshit to say that the gapper is always gonna win a 3 D tournament
 
Instinctive is used to describe an aiming style , like stringwaling is used to describe another , some wanna play with the word ,, I guess it can be said that since I never seen anybody walking on their string then string walking doesn't exist as an aiming method ,, and yeah to throw a ball you aim otherwise you could do it with you're eyes closed
It's bullshit to say that the gapper is always gonna win a 3 D tournament
Get back in your box you. ;)
I will admit that if you choose to use the word instinctive then follow it with aiming then it doesn't exist. Instinctive shooting maybe but not aiming. A good instinctive shooter can hold their own at a 3D shoot for sure but there aren't many good ones. Rick W and Ken B spring to mind but at local shoots most of the instinctive guys do well to score 275 and that gets you nowhere. Everybody aims in some way, some consciously some sub consciously some with gap some with string/face walking some with sights, it's all good to me, just shoot and have fun.
 
This is, was, and always will be a study of the American English language. You define "that word" for me and I'll tell you if it applies to me. Each of us knows how we shoot and also whether we're happy with our performance.

Other than that it's a great topic for the "pot stirrers" among us.
 
Instinctive is used to describe an aiming style , like stringwaling is used to describe another , some wanna play with the word ,, I guess it can be said that since I never seen anybody walking on their string then string walking doesn't exist as an aiming method ,,
It's bullshit to say that the gapper is always gonna win a 3 D tournament
Especially when the string walkers show up, lol
 
I don't really have time for this, but I'm going to post it anyway. It is a challenge of sorts.

First off - it does not mater to me how you choose to get your arrow to the mark, or what you choose to call the method. I'm just happy to see you shooting. 8^)

Now on to the challenge.

To do this you will need a place to shoot that will provide complete darkness.
An indoor range at night with no windows works real well.

It must be so dark, that you cannot see your hand in front of your face. Any light at all will ruin the test/challenge. Even the light from a candle will skew the results.

Get a laser aim pointer and mount it to a camera tripod in such a fashion it can be aimed & locked into place at that point of aim. When we did this we taped the laser to the tripod.

Put a 2" white paper circle on the target butt/wall at 20 yards, and place the dot of the laser center of the paper circle.

Close all of the doors, turn out all the lights, and make sure to cover any window, and anywhere any light is coming through.

Now shoot 5 arrows at the laser dot, and see how well you do. If you want to have a real blast, get a bunch of folks together to do this.

Video it, and share the results with us.

There will be those who will perform well at it, but it will be few.

Most will walk away from it shaking their head in realization that they do in fact use visual references "AIM" to make their shots, and even though they may do it at a subconscious level, if those references are taken away they are at a complete loss in their accuracy.

I have conducted this test several times, and it is a real eye opener for many.

A funny circumstance that arose from the first time we ever did it - The only shooter to perform well at the challenge just happened to be the only one out of 20 shooters who claimed to use his arrow to aim with. All the rest claimed to be pure instinctive.

OK - so there's your dot at 20 yards to focus on & shoot. Lets see how you do.

Rick
 
Nobody is claiming that u come outa the womb slinging arrows
The word instinctive isnt the best to describe it , we all know that I including u shit disturbers :)
Dave not sure what you getting at whith you're shoot In the dark stuff , I dont hunt at night
The guy who won you're little contest was simply the best shot regardles of aiming style,
Jon I see you took you're head outta you're butt long to stir the pot :) and get rid of that dam spig before it tears the rest of you're arm out
 
I used to shoot truly instinctively. One day would be great, the next horrible. As it was truly instinctive I could not figure out how to correct it as there was no conscious aiming involved. I decided at my age I don't have enough time to shoot a thousand arrows a week, not to mention all of the joint pain, and hope my instincts get tuned in. So now I shoot the gap, and point of aim. Beyond working on form issues, I can now shoot my gaps just periodically and they are set. I can also switch up bows and arrows and very quickly tune in my gaps. For me, it is much more efficient, and I shoot much less arrows and get much better results. Typical IBO TRAD type 3D distance estimation isn't that far, and a flat shooting bow can make up for slight errors.

And lets just add that I don't care how you get the arrow on target. A great shot is a great shot, period. But for some reason the instinctive shooters get all worked up over wanting to be recognized or something.
 
Hey Rick,

Cool idea, thanks.

Rasyad
 
" It is no myth, it is the way most archers have aimed these last 60,000 years or so."

I hate to get drawn into this, but can't resist after seeing that no one commented on the above statement.

I think Steve Morley made the most sense in this discussion. And to further his point I would say that no person who's life depended on it would shoot at a stationary target without gapping it. And on the other hand no person shooting at a moving target would gap it - you don't have the time.

To further that point - I asked Byron Ferguson if he was instinctive or a gapper. He said he was instinctive. I then asked how he made those long 100 yard shots. He said, “Those I gap.”. I asked him what the difference was and he said, “on the closer shots, I know the gap so well, I’m instinctive.”.

Bowmania
 
I won 3-4 NFAS National champs shooting Instinctively in Longbow unmarked Animal and 3D rounds (no limit on distance), I outshot or matched the Recurve scores every time, when I started shooting IFAA Field, I just added Gap and POA.

I still shoot both pretty well but keep the Instinct for under 20y shots and Aerial targets these days.

I do feel like Ive come full circle, the Gaps are so ingrained Im hardly aware of the Gap these days, maybe I will consciously ingrain the Gaps every few practice sessions or if I pick up a different bow.
 
" It is no myth, it is the way most archers have aimed these last 60,000 years or so."

I hate to get drawn into this, but can't resist after seeing that no one commented on the above statement.

I think Steve Morley made the most sense in this discussion. And to further his point I would say that no person who's life depended on it would shoot at a stationary target without gapping it. And on the other hand no person shooting at a moving target would gap it - you don't have the time.

Bowmania
I have no idea how people aimed 60,000 years ago, and I highly doubt any of us do (although I'm continually perplexed why any of us really care). But if my life depended on my ability to accurately place an arrow within a stationary target, I'd string-walk, even if the caveman next door called me a cheater.

With respect to moving targets, of course people can hit them via gap shooting. When I wing shoot a shotgun, I know exactly where my rib and bead are relative to the target when I pull the trigger. When I shoot a running rabbit or squirrel, I know how far my arrow tip is leading when I drop the string.
 
Here's a response I posted over on the Leatherwall:

I'll take this opportunity to jump in early, having been irritated by a thread having received 500+ responses to the assertion that 'instinctive' aiming is a myth. It is no myth, it is the way most archers have aimed these last 60,000 years or so. They have used it to feed their families, defend their communities and in some cases to conquer most of the civilized world.
Without being too anal about timelines, I wanted to weigh in on this a little bit. To my knowledge, no systematic study has ever been carried out regarding the aiming methodologies of pre-modern archers, or of current extant indigenous populations still using primitive bows for subsistence. I've contacted my PhD advisor as he has a lot of experience with the Hadza, to see if he has any insights regarding their aiming methodologies, and am waiting for a reply.

I don't think you're necessarily wrong in your assumption that instinctive aiming was the primary form of aiming in pre-modern archery, but I think it needs a lot more support than it currently has in terms of concrete evidence. Rather than just assuming that these peoples do it instinctively, it might be a good idea for us to ask questions. For all we know, they might have a traditional gap or facewalking system that has been handed down for generations. Different tribes might have different cultural aiming solutions, etc. It's certainly somethingto look at rather than just assuming that these populatins were using a purely instinctive style of aiming. When I get to visit the Hadza next year, I'll definitely be bringing this question along with me.
 
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