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Instinctive aiming.

17K views 88 replies 35 participants last post by  dan worden  
#1 ·
Here's a response I posted over on the Leatherwall:

I'll take this opportunity to jump in early, having been irritated by a thread having received 500+ responses to the assertion that 'instinctive' aiming is a myth. It is no myth, it is the way most archers have aimed these last 60,000 years or so. They have used it to feed their families, defend their communities and in some cases to conquer most of the civilized world.
I experienced a fine example of it this past weekend at the San Francisco Archers' annual Traditional Rendezvous. I shot with a fellow whose name I will not mention, not having his consent, whom I have long considered the most accurate instinctive archer I have seen. He recently won the first IBO Western Traditional Competition in the recurve classification. And he scored highest of 350 archers at the recent Traditional Archers of California rendezvous north of Santa Barbara. Both are unmarked 3D events, as was the one we shot on Sunday.

We both aim strictly instinctively out to 45 or 50 yards, near our point-on ranges, where it become impractical to ignore the arrow point so near our lines of sight. We absolutely do not estimate yardage, and tolerate no mention of it at unmarked events, as the rules specify. I had the honor of getting briefly ahead of him at the midway point.

For 40 targets, up hill and down dale, in deep forest, I don't recall him missing a target; I missed a few, but most of our shots were in the vitals. The longest was at a moose across water. That is the only one at which we discussed distance afterward. He thought it was 45 yards. I am pretty sure it was 52, my point-on range. But he outscored me, not knowing how far it was, exactly. We both saw it as fairly far, not too far, and made two good hits.

On other targets we both made some lung shots that were pretty much dead solid perfect, plumb center, with two arrows within two inches, sometimes touching.

I am here to tell you that instinctive archery is real, can be very accurate at various distances, and sometimes, now and then, when your focus is most intense, more accurate than any other method at hunting distances. - lbg
 
#4 ·
And here is my response to some of the criticism that followed:

It is not a true instinct, existing from birth. So maybe that is not the best possible name for it, but it is the name archers have used for many decades. It is learned behavior.

Yes, the arrow is visible, but we don't take conscious notice of it at short range. Out further, near point-on range we take more notice of it. I did on the long shot at the moose and we did estimate the range after we shot, and disagreed on it, but both made good hits, without knowing the range.

It doesn't require a heavy bow. I was pulling about 32 pounds. High Valley Rancher who posted here and shot well there was shooting 30 pounds from a very skinny little bow. The other fellow was pulling 51 pounds @ 30 inches.

No, you don't have to shoot to a rhythm, or quickly, or cant. We both took plenty of time to refine our aim and I held my bow vertically. He canted a bit. You can do those things if you wish and they may be helpful on movers and flyers. Some people can do it from below the chin, behind the ear, near the waist and even behind their backs.

It is not difficult to learn; most children pick it up easily. So do most of the adults I have taught, except those who try to aim off the arrow point. Those people mostly shoot over the bale for quite a while. Some find it difficult forever to largely ignore the arrow and the numbers and shoot by feel and visualization. They may need to find another way to aim in order to hit anything.

Of course it takes longer to learn all the distances, as with any aiming method. We aren't born knowing how. We are born with potential abilities that we can put to this use as we grow and learn. If we suffer disabilities we may be able to compensate for them. - lbg
 
#7 ·
It is no myth, it is the way most archers have aimed these last 60,000 years or so. They have used it to feed their families, defend their communities and in some cases to conquer most of the civilized world.
lbg
Dont think we have any proof of how people aimed until very recently, for example ELBs for clout shooting use a rubber band on bottom limb to aid aiming, who is to say this aiming idea wasnt used 1000 years ago in warfare?

Glad that you and your buddy could prove its a viable aiming method for tourney :cheers:
 
#8 ·
What's the point? Amid much discussion of other aiming methods, and disparagement of this one, I want to demonstrate to our readers that, as Steve Morley said, 'its a viable method for tourney.'

It is not the only good method, but it is one of them. We are free to choose. Out near point-on I gap aim off the arrow. Farther out I aim off the bow as well as the arrow. But out to 45 yards or so, I prefer 'instinctive' aiming. - lbg
 
#15 ·
LBG - your buddies score at the ibo shoot would have placed him 6th in RU class. Instinctive is one way to aim but, if we are talking tournaments there are more exact ways to get the arrow to the spot.

Matt
Matt,

As bad as I am at 3D, I would try anything. Especially if I do not have to estimate distances.

As rock climbers, we got very good at estimating how far we were from the next ledge and how much rope we had left. You never wanted to end up short. I guess with enough effort, I can figure out how far those darn foam animals are away from me.
 
#11 ·
I think it's a. Combination of things. I can't draw off target and then swing the bow to target and expect to hit very well. On moving targets I can't predraw, I have to watch it briefly, draw as I swing my bow with its pace. I have to focus on the target while I set my arm and during drawing to anchor. I don't classify this as instinctive any longer, but consider it several things. I believe over time my mind has Learned for a given distance my bow arm goes here. I couldn't tell you the distance to the target, I just look and shoot. I also believe at some level my mind knows the sight picture whether I'm consciously aware of it or not. This method of shooting is more accurate for me then string walking, or point on. When I see a sight pin or my point on the target my TP shows up and it's game over. Recently I have been holding at anchor longer and can't help but notice the arrow in relation to the target. I couldn't tell you in inches what a specific gap is, cause I don't know. I have found myself looking at the gap lately though and thinking that looks about right. My accuracy is as good if not better then it ever was, not looking to change a thing. However that being said, I have seen some horrible shooters who claim they are instinctive shooters and they owe it to the animals they hunt to get off the ego box and learn a different way to aim. I know personally if I don't shoot twice a week, my accuracy suffers. If I was a conscious gapper, I don't think that would be the case.
 
#12 ·
Matt: Sure, it is a matter of what tackle you want to shoot, and how. I'm just saying that you do not need highly specialized tackle and aiming methods to shoot well. I like to shoot pretty much the same way for all the games and for hunting. And I am just offering evidence that a good all around archer can compete successfully with the specialists. It's just harder is all. But the challenge is what brought me to the sport, having competed with firearms before. And that is why most of my competition has been with the longbow and wooden arrows. The challenge is the charm. - lbg
 
#18 ·
Lbg, what makes you think there is more of a challenge to shooting a longbow and wooden arrows than there is shooting full blown freestyle. Personally, I think you are looking for a place to hide from competition and challenges by shooting that style as , for the most part, there are few in the world who shoot it well. The recurve and longbow divisions are having a renaissance of sorts and there are some pretty good archers coming back to their roots. Already, there have been rumblings about certain archers coming to play with their recurves, and the people who have been used to winning are complaining about the competition. I guess there will soon be another petition to Nfaa to put in another niche style of shooting. There are a lot of archers out there who feel like they have to defend their "instinctive" style of shooting. Why? Who cares what style you shoot if it is your choice. Why come on here and defend something that doesn't need defending.Besides, you make the gappers and stringwalkers happy because they know that instinctive at best is very unreliable for constant accuracy. Not trying to be a smart ass but it has been proven over and over.
 
#16 ·
I shoot instinctive and shot the same 3D you did. The only station I blanked was the rabbits spinning by the practice range.

I shoot at least 60 arrows a day. All different distances to ingrain the cast of the arrow in my brain.

Most guys who discount instinctive aren't willing to put in the time to get good at it
 
#17 ·
I shoot instinctive and shot the same 3D you did. The only station I blanked was the rabbits spinning by the practice range.

I shoot at least 60 arrows a day. All different distances to ingrain the cast of the arrow in my brain.

Most guys who discount instinctive aren't willing to put in the time to get good at it
I think the point is if you are ingraining the cast it's not instinctive, it's muscle memory.
 
#19 ·
I agree it is muscle memory and hand eye coordination. As in any sport there is training involved. I guess if you want to be technical we are not born with the ability to shoot it is learned. I think the only thing we are born with that is not learned is the physicological functions of our body. ie breathing drive for nourishment ect.
 
#20 · (Edited)
I think my Son Paaren is the only true instinctive Archer, he had a Longbow in his hands before he could even walk/talk........granted it was my $1200 double carbon Longbow he was dragging through the kitchen but it counts :p

Spanish woman Encarna Lazaro is a great Instinctive shot, muti IBO and WA 3D world champ, 2 x IFAA Euro indoor champ, her Longbow indoor scores were up with the top men in the 250s :cheers: Short range unmarked rounds she is deadly but marked IFAA Field round she has yet to beat Kats so it has limitations, I think people who use multi aiming methods are the ones to watch, they can adapt to any shooting scenario.
 
#21 ·
I guess the bottom line is we are all there to have fun. As far as winning at tournaments my reality it to have fun. There's just not enough money to be won to be running around all puffed chest.
I shoot with a lot of different guys, trad, Olympic , string walkers, and face walkers. It all boils down to we have fun, bust each others chops, then go have a beer and do it again next week.
 
#22 ·
Oh yea,
If you shoot 3d with me and make a good 10 shot I will do my best to hit your arrow with mine. I will do it instinctively.
I expect the same from you no matter how you aim.
I shoot to have fun and never take myself to seriously
 
#23 ·
I think 'instinctive shooting' and 'aiming' are incompatible terms.

'Aiming' implies a system of sights and reference points. Instinctive shooting requires a total confidence in one's hand-eye co-ordination. See the target, hit the target. Does a baseball pitcher 'aim'? No, he throws thousands of balls until he can hit the corner of the strike zone consistently.

Totally by-passed the string on LW, ain't gonna get into this one.
 
#24 ·
I agree Dana! The fact of the matter is that those who claim to be "Instinctive" archers seemingly have to argue with others about "their" methodology.... No one else does. (dah)

The difference between it and all other methods is very simple, one either uses some peripheral in the "aiming" .... or doesn't.

There must be an intrinsic difference between archers... one that apparently requires "promotion" and the rest of it that doesn't..... For me, well, I could care less about Instinctive or whatever. The O N L Y thing that matters is having the arrow arrive at the intended point of impact! PERIOD, THE END.

Tom
PS- and I don't give a hoot what anyone else thinks about how I got it there! :)
 
#25 ·
I am an instinctive shot (subconscious gapper) and I know the limitations of my shooting style. That is my limitations not everyone's

I am primarily a hunter so for my self imposed hunting ranges what I do works for me. I have just started to shoot 3 D and I shoot with some very good people

My experience is this..... take an average instinctive shot and place him on a course with an average gapper and if ya don't put your money on the gapper your gonna loose

Again my style works great for me but my style was developed on close range hunting situation type shots. If I where to get serious about competing I would lean toward a gaping technique or a sight :)
 
#26 ·
Instinctive is used to describe an aiming style , like stringwaling is used to describe another , some wanna play with the word ,, I guess it can be said that since I never seen anybody walking on their string then string walking doesn't exist as an aiming method ,, and yeah to throw a ball you aim otherwise you could do it with you're eyes closed
It's bullshit to say that the gapper is always gonna win a 3 D tournament
 
#27 ·
Get back in your box you. ;)
I will admit that if you choose to use the word instinctive then follow it with aiming then it doesn't exist. Instinctive shooting maybe but not aiming. A good instinctive shooter can hold their own at a 3D shoot for sure but there aren't many good ones. Rick W and Ken B spring to mind but at local shoots most of the instinctive guys do well to score 275 and that gets you nowhere. Everybody aims in some way, some consciously some sub consciously some with gap some with string/face walking some with sights, it's all good to me, just shoot and have fun.
 
#28 ·
This is, was, and always will be a study of the American English language. You define "that word" for me and I'll tell you if it applies to me. Each of us knows how we shoot and also whether we're happy with our performance.

Other than that it's a great topic for the "pot stirrers" among us.
 
#30 ·
I don't really have time for this, but I'm going to post it anyway. It is a challenge of sorts.

First off - it does not mater to me how you choose to get your arrow to the mark, or what you choose to call the method. I'm just happy to see you shooting. 8^)

Now on to the challenge.

To do this you will need a place to shoot that will provide complete darkness.
An indoor range at night with no windows works real well.

It must be so dark, that you cannot see your hand in front of your face. Any light at all will ruin the test/challenge. Even the light from a candle will skew the results.

Get a laser aim pointer and mount it to a camera tripod in such a fashion it can be aimed & locked into place at that point of aim. When we did this we taped the laser to the tripod.

Put a 2" white paper circle on the target butt/wall at 20 yards, and place the dot of the laser center of the paper circle.

Close all of the doors, turn out all the lights, and make sure to cover any window, and anywhere any light is coming through.

Now shoot 5 arrows at the laser dot, and see how well you do. If you want to have a real blast, get a bunch of folks together to do this.

Video it, and share the results with us.

There will be those who will perform well at it, but it will be few.

Most will walk away from it shaking their head in realization that they do in fact use visual references "AIM" to make their shots, and even though they may do it at a subconscious level, if those references are taken away they are at a complete loss in their accuracy.

I have conducted this test several times, and it is a real eye opener for many.

A funny circumstance that arose from the first time we ever did it - The only shooter to perform well at the challenge just happened to be the only one out of 20 shooters who claimed to use his arrow to aim with. All the rest claimed to be pure instinctive.

OK - so there's your dot at 20 yards to focus on & shoot. Lets see how you do.

Rick
 
#31 ·
Nobody is claiming that u come outa the womb slinging arrows
The word instinctive isnt the best to describe it , we all know that I including u shit disturbers :)
Dave not sure what you getting at whith you're shoot In the dark stuff , I dont hunt at night
The guy who won you're little contest was simply the best shot regardles of aiming style,
Jon I see you took you're head outta you're butt long to stir the pot :) and get rid of that dam spig before it tears the rest of you're arm out