[rusty craine]

Me to Sam. Pro Aiming. Except aiming is not a fixed thing. You may have a aiming scheme for the stacked dot bunny targets, a scheme for 80 yard targets, a scheme for the 50 yard elk target on the other side of a deep wash, you need a scheme for steep angle shots.

You don't shoot field like you shoot indoor 300. I don't understand how archers can say I aim this way or that way. No aiming scheme works front 7 yards to 100 yards.

My aiming scheme is "what ever it takes" :shooting:

 

[Jimmy Blackmon]

Jimmy, maybe you're just having a bad day, so I'll disregard the personal attack for now. I believe in motivating archers to do their own research and practice. I've been known to suggest to struggling archers to "find out what expansion is" rather than attempting to draw them a verbal picture, because in the process of struggling and digging, they will learn many truths that they weren't even seeking. The best way to learn how to tune a bow is to start tuning a bow. Even if you do it wrong, you will learn something.

I've been on this site since it's beginning and I've never felt the need to be an archery god or stud hunter hero. I don't hawk books, videos, clinics or charge fees. What I can share is freely given.

Suffice it to say that those here that know me, understand my methods.

I know you have and I've read your posts over the years, but I've been gone a while and so I guess I had a bit of built up energy. I read your methodology as rude, but I'm sure you had no intention of being rude, so I apologize.

 

[Sam Dunham]

Jimmy has already said in a video that he does not care how anyone aims.

After all the "Pissing contests" about Instinctive and every other method I think it is time that we have a "No debate" tab or request on the OP's title like on the LW.

There is a basic guideline to every art. Some may learn all the Kata's and learn Martial arts and never be a Bruce Lee or Bill Wallace or Chuck Norris.

No one doe's archery the same way and no one aims the same way. That is why I cannot shoot your Bow and have to tune mine for me.

I guess even in a "Pissing contest" there may be different aiming methods?

pissing contest
Web definitions

A pissing contest, or pissing match, is a game in which participants compete to see who can urinate the highest, the farthest, or the most accurately. ..

I am burned out on it.:deadhorse

 

[Salskov]

OK. I'm baffled.

My best shots (not that there are many of them) are the ones that - when I hit the point of hold/expand -the arrow is already exactly where I want it to be. The release is not a second or third guess.

The beginning of any shot is the act of addressing the target (be it fur or paper or blank bale). What that means to me is that my aiming process has already kicked in. It is hardwired, involuntary. The eye picks up a focus point, pupil expands or contracts, rods and cones receive the raw data, optic nerve transmits to the brain, and the brain sifts and organises the data into a recognisable picture. I cannot stop this process as long as my eyes are open; there's a couple hundred thousand years of survival of the species that imprinted this particular neuromuscular response into my genetic infrastructure.

This is the flow. And If it is happening and I can't stop it then the best I can do is let it do what it does best unimpeded. As it always will do; it is not a self-conscious activity. While I take care of the physical constraints of good Form, which IS a self-conscious discipline (or activity).

The moment of convergence of the two makes for that "aha" moment when you know your shot is exactly what you intended it to be. Synergy. You feel the rush.

Doesn't matter what aiming matrix or methodology you use for this to happen and not only that but to be repeatable.

But maybe I'm missing the elephant in the living room. This post is more of a question than any answer.

Regards,

Salskov

 

[Seven Arrows]

I know you have and I've read your posts over the years, but I've been gone a while and so I guess I had a bit of built up energy. I read your methodology as rude, but I'm sure you had no intention of being rude, so I apologize.

Apology accepted.

As to the post, I was curious mainly, whether this technique was understood or was being employed to any degree. After reading the myriad posts regarding gapping and the wide disparity in results, I wondered how many if any, were aware of and utilizing secondary aiming. As I read the responses, here at least, I feel that it isn't well understood. What may possibly be hampering that understanding is in thinking it is the same as gap.

Let's refer back to Hill: "To anyone wishing to learn the split-vision or secondary-aiming method in shooting a bow, here are practical directions to follow: Select any given object to represent the target to be hit, and focus your eye on that object. Using the right hand, closed except for the index finger, bring that finger into your field of vision. At first it will be difficult to keep from shifting your direct vision away from the original or primary object, but after some practice it will be easy to hold fast with your direct vision on the original object, looking at it primarily, while secondarily you will be able to point your finger at any other object inside the scope of your vision, without looking directly at either the finger or whatever secondary object you have selected. Keep both eyes open at all times. As soon as the eyes have become accustomed to seeing in this manner, you are ready to begin using the split-vision method of aiming an arrow. You merely have to substitute your arrow for your index finger, using only the tip end of the arrow when it is at full draw to aim with."

If you get his instruction, you will see that it is not the same as calculating a gap in inches at various distances.

It takes some practice, but after awhile it will become automatic, furthermore, it works...

 

[markliep]

Wow! ... in the words of some Brits I used to work with I am gobsmacked - mucho thanx again 7 for more good advice (last one was the wool fill target bag) & also to morammo for the HH post ...

Have been struggling to move to a faster release since moving from target to hunting - the pertinent posted words were HH stating "both eyes open" - within literally 5 mins my set up time using both eyes open & indirect aim vs one eye open let me loose in about 1/3 the time I usually need - have posted the pic below with the title "both eyes open indirect aim" in my form folder to remind me when other form correction issues loom - this is the only time since working on this art that something's has come together quickly. Thx again - M.

BTW that target bag is filled with sheep wool & going strong 7...

 

[starrider]

I didn't know what it is called but I use in-direct aiming under 20 yards. The gaps are to large and I find myself checking the arrow, then checking where I wanted to hit the target. I started just focusing on the spot and could see the arrow when it was aligned correctly.

This method did not work past 20 yards for me though, and I gap using the arrow out to 30 yards. Then I'm using the arrow to align with the target again, but using my shelf to gap out to 35 yards.

I do find it interesting how others shoot their bows.

 

[Sam Dunham]

You could do three under and a high anchor for close up.

 

[rusty craine]

Wow! ... in the words of some Brits I used to work with I am gobsmacked - mucho thanx again 7 for more good advice (last one was the wool fill target bag) & also to morammo for the HH post ...

Have been struggling to move to a faster release since moving from target to hunting - the pertinent posted words were HH stating "both eyes open" - within literally 5 mins my set up time using both eyes open & indirect aim vs one eye open let me loose in about 1/3 the time I usually need - have posted the pic below with the title "both eyes open indirect aim" in my form folder to remind me when other form correction issues loom - this is the only time since working on this art that something's has come together quickly. Thx again - M.

BTW that target bag is filled with sheep wool & going strong 7...

Really nice looking rig. If ever a turkey bow exited that would be it

 

[markliep]

Thx Rusty - my knocking around in the woods set up - 4lb+ Fantom + hex5H's - should have been picking on birds 6AM tomorrow but work required I only get started next week end - this post has been very helpful for the first half of the equation but getting the birds to the blind will be equally necessary ... M

 

[rusty craine]

Yes! for the sake staying on topic we over look the skill, time and practice, and dedication of all the other things it takes to make a bow hunter.

Spring turkey and rutting elk are the two most exciting things to hunt in the States. Both take a great deal of skill besides being a good shot.

A spring tom is one of the finest trophy a trad bow hunter can collect.

 

[Matt_Potter]

I really want to take one with my longbow - not in a pop up - very very hard todo - came close this afternoon

 

[Sam Dunham]

This is a Classic thread..:highfive:

 

[biglegmax]

This is, thanks Sam, where is that 7 dude?

 

[RickR]

I used to shoot an old 20% let off Bear compound when compounds first came out. I aimed by using the bear medallion and the distance. I got to the place I could place the medallion using both eyes and depth perception. Is that what you mean? I beat 50% compounds and most bare bow users with it for a while. If your eyes are good it is as powerful as a site. You learn the distance and the aim, it's about a quarter instinctive, or at least in your memory and combines the techniques. Let's you be as accurate at 25yds as a pin set at twenty. Hill used something similar, but remember Hill was a snap shooter, not real good at longer distances. Compound shooters hold, trad shooters don't outside of low poundage target shooting. When I was a kid, Hill did it on Ed Sullivan, hitting thrown saltine crackers. I use a sight because I'm 66 and it's all a lot harder, but a good part of it is how I shoot.

 

[Jinkster]

I just try to see to it that the target gets in the way of the arrow! :lol:

 

[rusty craine]

I have decided I am not smart enough or talented enough. I can't figure out why I don't aim directly at what I want to hit. That certainly seems a great deal simpler to me.

Besides that it matches my personality. Indirect, diplomacy, talks, humbug! Go for the throat.

 

[Mo0se]

The less you have in your mind, the better off you will be. This is why a technique like this is effective. Having been using gap since I started, It becomes a learned behavior and I no longer worry about elevation...just execution. There are so many things one can fill their conscious mind with during a shot, and place too much emphasis on the wrong things. It's very easy to let results or projection ruin your sequence.

No matter how you shoot, there will always be a struggle between the conscious and unconscious. Those who excel have learned to control or diffuse one or the other. One thing is certain, it's a lifelong commitment filled with valleys and plateaus. There is no instant gratification, or quick fixes for that matter, since most of us have spent the majority of our time using counter-productive techniques and learning the hard way.

Learned behaviors are a double edged sword..there are good..and bad. Identifying the difference is a slippery slope. Changing the bad is not easy, it's hard on your ego and confidence, and confidence is one card you should always have in your hand. It's a self discovery process..you will learn about yourself and will not always like the truth. But being honest with yourself is crucial. We all have issues, it's how you address them that matters.

 

[longbowguy]

Howard himself generally described his method as split vision or secondary aiming. Not much as indirect aiming. I don't care for that term as it lends itself to confusion with point of aim or worse, holding off to the left or right due to poorly tuned tackle. I believe even 'gap' was construed somewhat differently at the time he was writing.

Nowadays I think the term instinctive, for all its faults, and gap, cover the topic pretty well.

The most important form points he gave us all were anchoring on the side of the face, on the cheek as he called it, which few archers did before, and the canted bow. Most everybody around the world anchored either under the chin or with a very long draw below and behind the ear. The side of the face anchor with a canted bow were his contribution to us, for more accurate aiming at hunting distances. That and applying laminated bamboo to the standard American longbow design, and then fibreglas. We all tread in his footsteps in those matters. - lbg

 

[John in NZ]

I've always used it from day one.
Indirect or Split vision.
Have never got the gap thing because it all looks much the same to me, until I get past point on anyway.
Until I read an early copy of Mr Hills "Hunting The Hard way" I had always said I shot instinctive if asked how I aimed.
The only reason I did that was because older an wiser heads had said I shot instinctive so I was happy to agree so long as it made no difference to me, which it didn't.
But personally I knew I wasn't gap shooting or instinctive shooting.
Mr Hill explained it for me.
John.