[lumis17]

If Howatt ever made ILF stuff I'd be thrilled to own one.

Martin made the Aurora riser and limbs. You see them everyone now and then, but not often. The riser was 24" if I remember right, but I'm not sure if that was designed/made by Howatt. The limbs were I believed, and I think Larry has commented on them before. I keep my eye out but no luck yet. Saw one good deal at a weight I'd like, but it was gone by the time I saw it.

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[Larry Hatfield]

Yeah, I designed that bow at the request of Martins. It had the old Hoyt platform. The limbs were pretty good but around 3fps slower than a comparable Hoyt at that time. The risers were great. We didn't make them for long. That was a really hard market to crack back then. Much more open now that almost everyone has access to the same type materials and the tech to use both.

 

[lumis17]

I would like to be part of the conversation but my posts keep being deleted

Must be a glitch

Ill just sit this one out and read along

From what I saw, you only had one post deleted and it didn't really further the conversation. It was just a remark about the OP.

As for the topic at hand, I don't think anyone has any reason to expect anything more than the stated warranty. Especially if it's a company you think has QC issues. Ultimately, these are businesses we are dealing with and you need to treat them as such. I feel that you are justified in praising companies that go beyond their warranties and/or your expectations, but have no reason to bad mouth anyone following their written policies. Do your homework before spending your money.

 

[rwaterman00]

I feel that you are justified in praising companies that go beyond their warranties and/or your expectations, but have no reason to bad mouth anyone following their written policies. Do your homework before spending your money.

^
everyone needs to read what Lumis wrote. he nailed it.
If you buy a product then you also acknowledge that you agree with their written warranty. If they then honor that warranty then you have gotten what you originally agreed upon.

BTW i have the best warranty on my flintknapped stone knives. If one of my knives break during shanking someone and you send me back the knife with blood still on the blade, i will replace free of charge. I do this in hopes people actually use my knives instead of just sitting them in a display. I haven't had to replace one yet

 

[JParanee]

From what I saw, you only had one post deleted and it didn't really further the conversation. It was just a remark about the OP.

As for the topic at hand, I don't think anyone has any reason to expect anything more than the stated warranty. Especially if it's a company you think has QC issues. Ultimately, these are businesses we are dealing with and you need to treat them as such. I feel that you are justified in praising companies that go beyond their warranties and/or your expectations, but have no reason to bad mouth anyone following their written policies. Do your homework before spending your money.

There were more ....but that's okay

I agree with you warranty comment thank you for replying

 

[kentsabrina]

The thread in question was about a riser that exceeded to full warranty by a few months but there is ZERO doubt it was a manufacturing defect. Walmart is not going to do anything about a warranty (they don't make the products) but I've had many successful interactions for products outside of warranty by contacting the company directly. One was with TradTech Archery with a set of EBF limbs I bought second hand. They were great and never questioned anything.

Last week I contacted a brewery over a $10 6-pack of beer that was flat. I just wanted to let them to know as I really like the beer but they are sending me a check. They don't even have a warranty but it's the right thing to do.

The real question is if a company truly stands behind their products they will make accommodations outside the warranty period. There are exceptions to everything such as if the product was never used and it failed.

A company's character is even more apparent when customers are treated different based on their willingness to post reviews. Is it just me or have others noticed most of the great reviews are from those who have had had multiple failures of the same product? Great if you have a personal relationship with the company but what if you don't? You willing to take a chance on a product with a higher rate of failure they will stand behind their products even if it's obvious manufacturing defect?

You don't judge companies (or people) by how they react when things go right, only when things go wrong can you judge their true character.

I was too naive enough to inform a well known archery company on their stabilizer's deflect (length tolerance difference more than 4mm on several same length / same model short rods)

contacted them directly on FB, letting them know the issue for correction...did that because I really like the brand n product

The result? I was coldly asked why not I bought the short rods in pair (which I did)...no apporigies nor appreciation from them....

 

[Jon Lewis]

From what I saw, you only had one post deleted and it didn't really further the conversation. It was just a remark about the OP.

.

I didn't see Joe's comments but I don't think they should be deleted. I don't expect him to agree with me on anything Border related and I'm fine with that but ironically I was kind of seeing Sid's side in this. Out of date warranty claims are hard to deal with for any company.

 

[lumis17]

I didn't see Joe's comments but I don't think they should be deleted. I don't expect him to agree with me on anything Border related and I'm fine with that but ironically I was kind of seeing Sid's side in this. Out of date warranty claims are hard to deal with for any company.

I mistyped; the comment was towards (and about) MAT and not the OP (you). I was still thinking about the original thread.

 

[JParanee]

I didn't see Joe's comments but I don't think they should be deleted. I don't expect him to agree with me on anything Border related and I'm fine with that but ironically I was kind of seeing Sid's side in this. Out of date warranty claims are hard to deal with for any company.

Thx John

I appreciate it

My sense of humor is not appreciated and I'm fine with that

As forums choose to sensor and delete posts by members I tend to loose interest and so do many others

I've seen it before and in general this is why forums participation has decreased across the internet on a whole and platforms like Instagram and the like are growing but are getting sensored more and more every day

On a forum if you don't agree with someone or make a joke you are just erased

I knew years ago when I threw my lot in with Border I would be treated differently and again that's fine

It does make me said I love archery and the people that are involved

Because I like a certain company and stick up for them it's kinda really tainted peoples opinion of me

That's fine I'm a big boy and I get it

The best part of forums for me has always been to learn what the Bowyer's and top shooters were thinking and doing

I also like to help people when I can and I can't tell you how many calls I still get to help people set up theirs bows etc

I love talking to archers and I love going to shoots and meeting people

Thank god we still have a few talented Bowyer's on here and shooters but it is declining quickly

For the Bowyer's on here Remember a few disgruntled customers can hurt your business and if your customers that are happy with you stick up for you they will be labeled fan boys and pushed out

My comments so you know started with Mat writing a new smear campaign because he did not get the result he wanted it had nothing to do with you or anything you wrote

He posted no vacation pics

This refers to another thread about border that I posted some spear fishing pics on to show what I've been up to during the past year

So I'm quite sure the comment was directed directly to me

So I posted a pic of a girls feet sitting in the sand on a beach as a joke

Childish yes but offensive....no

It even got a couple likes

The next was on the second thread were I commented to Mat

Something like jeez you even return beer which was a comment to show the mind set of this person when he stated he called the beer company on a six pack to complain it was flat and got a refund

I'm sure he still drank the beer

So in a way I was looking for it even though they were not attacks they were wise ass comments and childish

It's all good the mods can keep deleting my posts and even ban me if they like

I do want to thank you

Even though you and I did not always see eye to eye on somethings I believe we have always stayed friendly and I have a ton of respect for you and a few others on here

Thank you sir and Merry X Mas

 

[Breathn]

I respect everyone on here. I deal with bow companies on a daily basis and warranty can make a company greatest thing ever or worse thing ever if ever needed to be used . Social media and forums really can sway the public eye about a company so sometimes it’s cheaper in the end for company to fix something even if they think it’s should not be on their dime . But I can respect a company and there rules on such and how they enforce them , might not agree with it but that’s chance they must take in keeping a customer or loosing many .
On another note , all these discussions seem really reasonable and I hate seeing any post deleted .

Merry Christmas everyone

 

[WP79Vet]

Been out sick for a few days.... apparently I missed some "frank and useful" discussion regarding warranties. Difficult subject, for sure, with a few abusers among buyers, sellers, and reviewers alike.

Bottom line, I think, is that all guarantees are ultimately a matter of somebody's personal character. Unfortunately, there's no sure-fire way to assess character until there's a problem of some kind. Formal or informal reviews can provide useful insights.... but then you're depending on the characters and experiences of the reviewers. Everybody is most heavily influenced by their own experiences, which may or may not be typical. All people and companies screw up from time to time. And, unfortunately, favorable reviews can be purchased in a variety of ways. In these days of online marketplaces, I'm sure that happens a lot more than any of us realize.

Product and seller reviews can be among the most useful purposes of Trad Talk. Their usefulness is enhanced when everybody is transparent about their experiences, their biases, and their business interests and relationships, and I think that's also the best way to avoid conflict. I have no problem at all with bowyers or company reps promoting or sticking up for their companies or products, or defending their actions in a warranty dispute... as long as I know who they are and where they're coming from, and as long as everybody shows respect for opinions and experiences that differ from their own.

Maybe Trad Talk needs a vendor forum of some kind which provides opportunity for vendors to make product announcements, provide links to testing data and marketing websites, and so forth?

 

[Jon Lewis]

Thx John

I appreciate it

My sense of humor is not appreciated and I'm fine with that

As forums choose to sensor and delete posts by members I tend to loose interest and so do many others

I've seen it before and in general this is why forums participation has decreased across the internet on a whole and platforms like Instagram and the like are growing but are getting sensored more and more every day

On a forum if you don't agree with someone or make a joke you are just erased

I knew years ago when I threw my lot in with Border I would be treated differently and again that's fine

It does make me said I love archery and the people that are involved

Because I like a certain company and stick up for them it's kinda really tainted peoples opinion of me

That's fine I'm a big boy and I get it

The best part of forums for me has always been to learn what the Bowyer's and top shooters were thinking and doing

I also like to help people when I can and I can't tell you how many calls I still get to help people set up theirs bows etc

I love talking to archers and I love going to shoots and meeting people

Thank god we still have a few talented Bowyer's on here and shooters but it is declining quickly

For the Bowyer's on here Remember a few disgruntled customers can hurt your business and if your customers that are happy with you stick up for you they will be labeled fan boys and pushed out

My comments so you know started with Mat writing a new smear campaign because he did not get the result he wanted it had nothing to do with you or anything you wrote

He posted no vacation pics

This refers to another thread about border that I posted some spear fishing pics on to show what I've been up to during the past year

So I'm quite sure the comment was directed directly to me

So I posted a pic of a girls feet sitting in the sand on a beach as a joke

Childish yes but offensive....no

It even got a couple likes

The next was on the second thread were I commented to Mat

Something like jeez you even return beer which was a comment to show the mind set of this person when he stated he called the beer company on a six pack to complain it was flat and got a refund

I'm sure he still drank the beer

So in a way I was looking for it even though they were not attacks they were wise ass comments and childish

It's all good the mods can keep deleting my posts and even ban me if they like

I do want to thank you

Even though you and I did not always see eye to eye on somethings I believe we have always stayed friendly and I have a ton of respect for you and a few others on here

Thank you sir and Merry X Mas

Not agreeing on one issue won't influence my friendship and respect for you either buddy, don't ever worry about that. I hope you and your family have a happy and safe Christmas [emoji1335][emoji1335]

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[JParanee]

Not agreeing on one issue won't influence my friendship and respect for you either buddy, don't ever worry about that. I hope you and your family have a happy and safe Christmas [emoji1335][emoji1335]

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The best to you and yours sir

 

[WP79Vet]

I always enjoy your contributions to TT, Joe, and you were very knowledgeable, open, even-handed, and helpful when I became interested in super recurves and sought your advice.

Product reviews and experiences are one of the most useful aspects of TT, but they also seem to be a continuing source of conflict and alienation. Wish I could think of a good way to address this. In my first response to this thread I advocated more transparency regarding affiliations and basis of experience on the part of folks who post, and maybe a vendor forum of some kind. Any thoughts?

 

[JParanee]

I always enjoy your contributions to TT, Joe, and you were very knowledgeable, open, even-handed, and helpful when I became interested in super recurves and sought your advice.

Product reviews and experiences are one of the most useful aspects of TT, but they also seem to be a continuing source of conflict and alienation. Wish I could think of a good way to address this. In my first response to this thread I advocated more transparency regarding affiliations and basis of experience on the part of folks who post, and maybe a vendor forum of some kind. Any thoughts?

Thx for the kind words they are much appreciated and I'm for what ever would draw back more people to the forums and stop the negativity

 

[Mike S]

I don't know any parties involved in this, I can only speak for myself. I don't abuse my gear. If I'm paying top shelf prices for a bow and the thing delaminates the day I get it, the following year, or even 5 years later and the manufacturer implies it was my fault you better believe I will warn people before they purchase from that company.

I know things happen, and some people toss their gear around and maybe try to get away with a replacement they don't deserve but when you get into the high dollar stuff there are more variables on the builders side that would result a delamination than there is on the customers side. I run my own business and it sucks to give away profit, but if I built something that came apart I would at least look at it before I blamed my customer. If it looks like its brand new,and just came apart I'm taking care of that customer, period. If there are any other signs of damage or abuse then the conversation goes in a different direction. I can understand limb failures over time because the limbs work, but it's not unreasonable to expect a riser to last.

Just my opinion

 

[Tooner]

Different folks use different criteria for choosing products. Some people base their opinions of a company or a specific product on how the warranty claims are handled. That is a legitimate concern. I tend to base my opinions of a product on how often the warranty is actually needed. I buy a car based on durability ratings not on how long the warranty is or how friendly the repair shop is. If a certain car is known to have issues, I look elsewhere.

 

[Carboniac]

Just a comment on warrenties and customer service - not the specific one that prompted this.

Warranties
You should expect what was promised at the time of sale. If you expected more than that - you made a mistake. By all means you are justified in bitching about the product itself the product failed in an unreasonable way - but dont complain about the warranty.

Customer Service
If something fail in an unreasonable manner, its a good idea to replace it even if the warranty expired. If something failed after the warranty and its possibly from normal wear and tear or abuse - you should feel no onus to repair/replace it.

The hardest calls.
The one thing that is always a problem for sellers of high value custom items is when the customer claims it arrived broken or broke on the first use but the break doesnt make sense. There are bad actors out there who deal with buyers remorse by trying to break stuff so they can get a refund.

 

[Riverjunkie91]

I think it's worth distinguishing between failure due to use (or misuse) and pure manufacturing defects when thinking about warranty obligations. Subtle defects may result in failure during use, but defects apparent prior to use are another thing and should be treated as such. If that's not something everyone can agree on I think any conversation that follows is going to be pointless.

More to the point, it's wise for companies considering warrantying items to consider both the strict terms of warranty and the unique context/use history of the item they sold as reported by the end user and indicated through wear. They don't have to of course, but then that might be appropriately held against them. You'll always have customers trying to take advantage, so there's a balance to be struck.

If something is purchased new, shelved, and has defects when taken out, I would expect something close to full warranty/replacement as long as that item is still in production. Central to that is the company acknowledging they sent out a defective product. It didn't become defective sitting on a shelf, it was shipped that way. Owning the defect is a company showing pride in their work, acknowledging they're not perfect, and demonstrates respect for their consumers. Blaming the defect on the consumer or sticking to strict interpretation of warranty is the opposite, and in bespoke industry strikes me as terrible business prioritization.

If owning defects is really hurting the bottom line, well, that's probably another issue entirely.

I agree with this. At my work we are a distributor and custom make items for people using the products we distribute. I had a customer the other day, bring In two things from over 18 months ago, each worth about $500 (our cost)

He said "I bought it for a job that never panned out, and then pulled it out to use it recently and XXX was wrong"

I took one look at it and agreed. The product in question was defective from the MFG.

our return policy is no return over 1 year. The mfg wont warranty either.

So what did I do??? I let him know that we wont be able to return it to the MFG since over 18 months had elapsed....but that I would replace both items at no charge. I asked him to please check out his items immediately in the future so we can both be covered.

Customer X was extactic and walked away happy.

Is that every scenario? No , sometimes people try to pull the wool over our eyes and bully us into returning clearly used items. Which we wont do.

I am totally against the trend in the USA, of being able to return anything used or not for any reason. It really sets a bad precedent for small businesses like the one I work for, who can't just EAT IT.

But when something is clearly defective from the factory, then whomever sold it needs to take accountability and replace or repair imo.

Always give the customer the benefit of the doubt! Always.

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[MAT]

My comments so you know started with Mat writing a new smear campaign because he did not get the result he wanted it had nothing to do with you or anything you wrote

He posted no vacation pics

This refers to another thread about border that I posted some spear fishing pics on to show what I've been up to during the past year

I fail to see how someone posting pictures of a brand new riser that delaminated and a bowyer who refused to offer more than a 50% refund because it was 2 months out of an illegal warranty be a smear campaign? It's just information people, make up your own mind with the facts as they were presented.

Just because you get to test new products and have a no questions asked deal with Border doesn't mean we all do. I'm sure you get free stuff to for being a good friend of the company but you are biased dude. So much so that you have a long history of smearing anyone who has legitimate issues with Border.

My original post was let's keep it to the facts so we don't end up with deleted posts. I think it's great for everyone to see that even favorite customers have had multiple sets of limbs blow up.

And what's up with the double spacing on every sentence.

It's just like posting irrelevant pictures of spearfishing on another Border post you didn't like.

You are trying to bury threads so no one else participates or reads past the first few pages.

What you don't realize is it's so annoying to read many just skip over it, myself included.

As for the beer, I wanted to let them know so they could fix the problem, not because I wanted my money back. They were so grateful someone alerted them to a quality control issue they sent me a check for more than I told them I paid for it. Now that's customer service. Trust me I'll buy from them again.

After screwing my buddy out of $550 my advice to anyone I know is never, ever buy anything new or used Border products. Never.