What is your understanding? Does God still speak in the same way He did to Moses, Abraham, Joseph, Daniel, etc?
Cato
I am not questioning the applicability to us. There is so much there about how God views life, and deals with us.
But it seems like the saints of old literally "heard" from God. It seems like He chose to speak to them (whether audibly or not) in ways that could not be denied (ax head floating, people thru fire, donkeys talking, etc).
So, do you think He has chosen to deal with us a little different, after the coming of the Holy Spirit?
But it seems like the saints of old literally "heard" from God. It seems like He chose to speak to them (whether audibly or not) in ways that could not be denied (ax head floating, people thru fire, donkeys talking, etc).
So, do you think He has chosen to deal with us a little different, after the coming of the Holy Spirit?
Cato,
I agree.
One way to understand how God communicates with us past, present and future is to look how we communicate with our own children as they mature.
When God created Adam and Eve they were created as adults or very close to it the best I can determine, but they were still children concerning life and understanding it.
Life was created for relationships and God allowed us to have children to better understand the relationship He wants and has with us.
We don't talk to our adult children, who have gone out on their own, the same as we do our young children still at home. I view the Old Testament people as new borns or young adolesants, the New Testament people as pre-teens and us as teenagers or young adults.
It may not make sense to others, but that's basically is how I see it
Ray
I agree.
One way to understand how God communicates with us past, present and future is to look how we communicate with our own children as they mature.
When God created Adam and Eve they were created as adults or very close to it the best I can determine, but they were still children concerning life and understanding it.
Life was created for relationships and God allowed us to have children to better understand the relationship He wants and has with us.
We don't talk to our adult children, who have gone out on their own, the same as we do our young children still at home. I view the Old Testament people as new borns or young adolesants, the New Testament people as pre-teens and us as teenagers or young adults.
It may not make sense to others, but that's basically is how I see it
Ray
I'll have to tell you guys, it is so nice to be able to come out here and discuss this type stuff.
My conclusion is that when the Holy Spirit was sent as our Helper, God began a somewhat different way of "speaking" to us. Not that He does not reveal Himself in many of the same ways, but it seems He rarely audibly speaks. In contrast, the saints of old did not have the permanent indwelling, nor did the have the complete Word, so it seems God revealed Himself in a different way.
By the way Black Wolf, you continue to amaze me with wonderful analogies.
And thanks to both of you guys for supporting this forum.
Cato
My conclusion is that when the Holy Spirit was sent as our Helper, God began a somewhat different way of "speaking" to us. Not that He does not reveal Himself in many of the same ways, but it seems He rarely audibly speaks. In contrast, the saints of old did not have the permanent indwelling, nor did the have the complete Word, so it seems God revealed Himself in a different way.
By the way Black Wolf, you continue to amaze me with wonderful analogies.
And thanks to both of you guys for supporting this forum.
Cato
Well, Jesus appeared to his diciples after his resurection. I think that's about the only example of that (written down) that I can think of in the Bible. I think that Paul and John, probably a couple of others heard his voice too in NT times.
I know that I've had personal revelation through the Holy Ghost many times. But that is different that hearing God's voice.
I don't agree that we don't need direct revelation from God. If anything, we need it more. Satan has been succefull in making the world a pretty evil place. Jesus will be returning soon, so we need to be ready. Of course I beleive that God still uses Prophets today as well. I've done a lot of soul searching with religion, and I don' t think that God gave us a Bible then left us to fend for ourselves, with no prophets, no miracles, and no revelation to help us. Why would God do that to the ones he loves? To borrow from Black Wolfs analogy, would you do that to your children? Or would you give them everything they needed for success? We're not teenagers or young adults, we are mere babes, lambs. Mankind now beleives ourselves to have superior knowledge and we can explain all things. Mankind, in general, beleives more in science (the way God made things), than God (who made all things). In a way we are worse off than the Old Testement people, spiritually, because they looked more to the Heavens than they did their own hands. I do agree that the spirits inhabiting the earth now are stronger than the generation that preceded them. God is sending out the most valiant, because he needs their strength to combat the great evil that has risen in the world. The strong spirits that hold fast to God will perserve us in the last days. But it's through modern day revelation and guidence that the strong remain strong and not become corrupted by the carnal.
I know that I've had personal revelation through the Holy Ghost many times. But that is different that hearing God's voice.
I don't agree that we don't need direct revelation from God. If anything, we need it more. Satan has been succefull in making the world a pretty evil place. Jesus will be returning soon, so we need to be ready. Of course I beleive that God still uses Prophets today as well. I've done a lot of soul searching with religion, and I don' t think that God gave us a Bible then left us to fend for ourselves, with no prophets, no miracles, and no revelation to help us. Why would God do that to the ones he loves? To borrow from Black Wolfs analogy, would you do that to your children? Or would you give them everything they needed for success? We're not teenagers or young adults, we are mere babes, lambs. Mankind now beleives ourselves to have superior knowledge and we can explain all things. Mankind, in general, beleives more in science (the way God made things), than God (who made all things). In a way we are worse off than the Old Testement people, spiritually, because they looked more to the Heavens than they did their own hands. I do agree that the spirits inhabiting the earth now are stronger than the generation that preceded them. God is sending out the most valiant, because he needs their strength to combat the great evil that has risen in the world. The strong spirits that hold fast to God will perserve us in the last days. But it's through modern day revelation and guidence that the strong remain strong and not become corrupted by the carnal.
Camobow,
You wrote "There are no modern day revelators, because the Bible says so, however, I have little doubt that books written by carnal men profess to have such revelatory ability, yet such teaching will perish along with its author."
Don't hold your breath.
As for the rest, I can't compete with you in apologetics. I'm not one. So I'll not argue with them. Most are very good points, and many would agree. Your also well versed and polite. A very good debator. The fact of the matter it's impossible to agrue my "lies" with your "truths". Once somebody has already put a something in a certain catagory meaningful discussion and understanding pretty much goes out the window.
You wrote "There are no modern day revelators, because the Bible says so, however, I have little doubt that books written by carnal men profess to have such revelatory ability, yet such teaching will perish along with its author."
Don't hold your breath.
As for the rest, I can't compete with you in apologetics. I'm not one. So I'll not argue with them. Most are very good points, and many would agree. Your also well versed and polite. A very good debator. The fact of the matter it's impossible to agrue my "lies" with your "truths". Once somebody has already put a something in a certain catagory meaningful discussion and understanding pretty much goes out the window.
There is a very significant difference in the way God spoke to the saints in the Old Testament (OT) and He speaks to the body of believers in the New Testament (NT). In the OT He spoke to people of His choosing, priests and judges, and they spoke to the people, i.e., the Nation of Israel. Now there are many, many principles from the OT that carry through to the NT, in principle. But the OT was under a totally different dispensation than the NT.
In the NT God speaks to the Priesthood of Believers, i.e., each individual believer, through the preaching, teaching and reading of the Word of God and the ministry of the Holy Spirit which indwells each individual believer. The saints of the OT were not indwelt by the Holy Spirit. The power of the Holy Spirit would come upon the priests/judges/etc, but none were indwelled by the Holy Spirit.
The first "man" to be indwelled by the Holy Spirit was our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ when the Holy Spirit descended upon Him from heaven as He came up out of the baptismal waters after being baptized by John the Baptist. :jesus: :amen: :amen:
Bill
In the NT God speaks to the Priesthood of Believers, i.e., each individual believer, through the preaching, teaching and reading of the Word of God and the ministry of the Holy Spirit which indwells each individual believer. The saints of the OT were not indwelt by the Holy Spirit. The power of the Holy Spirit would come upon the priests/judges/etc, but none were indwelled by the Holy Spirit.
The first "man" to be indwelled by the Holy Spirit was our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ when the Holy Spirit descended upon Him from heaven as He came up out of the baptismal waters after being baptized by John the Baptist. :jesus: :amen: :amen:
Bill
camobow,camobow said:
I can only share what I believe the Bible teaches. Christ was baptized as an example for the believers to follow after He was crucified, buried, resurrected and ascended into Heaven. The Holy Spirit came down upon and indwelt Him to empower Him.
In his earthly ministry, Christ was never greater than man, but He was never less than God. He performed many miracles, all of which were as the result of the power of the Holy Spirit. He was tempted by Satan as a man, but He was able to resist the temptations of Satan, once again, because of the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit.
It is essential that we be able to read the Bible and see Christ's humanity, while at the same time seeing His perfection, His holiness and His Godliness. These are all essential in order for Him to have fulfilled the prophecies of the OT.
Bill
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