[Grantmac]

Yes I think the difference is that the instinctive archer doesn't think in "yardages". I have little idea how far I'm shooting in unmarked settings, and am so hopeless at guesstimating yardage that I gave up bothering a long time ago! In all truth distance does not even come to mind. For this reason it's not about "memorising" gaps, at least for me. Less about working from conscious memory than feeling out the shot, or something. Bow arm just goes to where it needs to, the 'instinct' part.

Works for me out to point on, which is a bit past 40m on my current hunting rig. Past that I'm struggling, and really need to conscious gap, at least at my current level. In over a decade I have not been able to group well past point on shooting instinctive. Work to do.

I know 3d course setters who would have you missing all day using that system.
If you can judge yardage and absolutely know it you'll never succeed outside your comfortable home club. I've seen this countless times with "instinctive" shooters who did well (but not that well) on their home turf and couldn't make hits once they tried to branch out.

 

[Remote]

I know 3d course setters who would have you missing all day using that system.
If you can judge yardage and absolutely know it you'll never succeed outside your comfortable home club. I've seen this countless times with "instinctive" shooters who did well (but not that well) on their home turf and couldn't make hits once they tried to branch out.

They sound like novice archers. That is all. The quality is especially poor in your area, it would seem, based on your avid descriptions.

 

[Draven O]

They sound like novice archers. That is all. The quality is especially poor in your area, it would seem, based on your avid descriptions.

What Grantmac is saying is true, and the archers for which this applies are nowhere close to novices. The archer who can hold his own on his home course against aimers - being on the first 3 - is top of the line "instinctive aimer". Let us know how the first competition goes.

 

[Remote]

What Grantmac is saying is true, and the archers for which this applies are nowhere close to novices. The archer who can hold his own on his home course against aimers - being on the first 3 - is top of the line "instinctive aimer". Let us know how the next competition goes.

I don't believe this to be a general rule at all. I have shot alongside very good instinctive shooters even for their first time on a challenging unmarked range, for instance in Eisenbach at the Schwarzwald parcours at Hotel Bogensport, and they were phenomenal. Left some very good system shooters well behind, while indeed some other conscious aimers held their own. Powerful to behold.

 

[Draven O]

I would go out and shoot more, and don't look at the best. I would check what the Average Joe is doing in competitions.
PS You've seen the guys shooting. When do you think you can be at their level or close enough? Nothing motivated to improve me more than shooting side by side with a "Real Deal" archer

 

[Remote]

Our experiences may differ. That is not unusual.

If I am to dare a generalisation, my experience is that in marked settings good conscious aimers will generally score higher against equally experienced instinctive shooters. But in unmarked settings good instinctive shooters have the advantage, unless the system shooter has a rangefinder or an unusually strong intution - instinct - for estimating yardage.

But then it's not all about who's scoring highest across all methods and equipment, is it. rather becoming the most accurate one can be within the confines of one's chosen style.

 

[Grantmac]

They sound like novice archers. That is all. The quality is especially poor in your area, it would seem, based on your avid descriptions.

People in my province have placed at world's and our nationally top barebow can run with the best.

But instinctive shooters are roughly the same everywhere from what I've seen. Maybe watch less YouTube and shoot more competitions you might learn something.

Based on your descriptions you've never shot with anyone who can actually judge yardage with any accuracy. Once you do you'll be badly humbled.

 

[SagarG]

Anyway… hey Mister, how’s the book?

 

[hey Mister]

Anyway… hey Mister, how’s the book?

I will be utilizing the training techniques layed out in the book for my practice and if any of my students are serious about their training, I will recommend it and teach it.
A very good book for sure.

 

[Creature]

There is another very good book on instinctive shooting available from Henry Bodnik just called instinctive shooting that explains a lot of the techniques used for this aiming method.

 

[Remote]

There is another very good book on instinctive shooting available from Henry Bodnik just called instinctive shooting that explains a lot of the techniques used for this aiming method.

Yeah, I've only thumbed through it in German in a store, but sure looked great! His in person training/classes have a very good reputation over here in Europe.

Courses in Archery

Bodnik Bows zählen bei den traditionellen Top-Bogenschützen und Bogenjägern zu den leistungsstärksten, komfortabelsten und präzisesten Bögen aller Zeiten!

www.bodnikbows.com

 

[Creature]

I have a question for GrantMac. You mentioned earlier that people who do not estimate distance could not shoot well on a course they were not familiar with or to that effect, and you knew target setters who could set a range so such people would have a hard time hitting the target . My question is how would this course be set , what would they do to make it so difficult ?

 

[Sam Dunham]

And this is where the whole problem with does does "instinctive" means arises. It seems you are are applying a different defintion that was applied 30/20/10 years ago.

Split vision/gapstinctive/shotgun shooters regularly estimate range too without actually calculating range. The majority of archers just learn to do that with time shooting. .

I think we all forget that Archery is proprietary to the individual.
Basic instruction applies to everyone but seldom can I pick up your Bow and Arrow and hit the same POI as you do.
Tuning is to the individual inputs etc.

 

[Sam Dunham]

Instinctive is easy once consistent repeatable form is learned. Focus on something you want the Arrow to hit,
point and shoot!

 

[Jinkster]

Instinctive is easy once consistent repeatable form is learned. Focus on something you want the Arrow to hit,
point and shoot!

Nope…not only is repeatable form unnecessary but no consistency is exactly what being truly instinctive compensates for.

Just like that shot from 3/4 draw that harvested your creature Sam.

 

[Sam Dunham]

Nope…not only is repeatable form unnecessary but no consistency is exactly what being truly instinctive compensates for.

Just like that shot from 3/4 draw that harvested your creature Sam.

What? 😆😆😆

 

[Sam Dunham]

Nope…not only is repeatable form unnecessary but no consistency is exactly what being truly instinctive compensates for.

Just like that shot from 3/4 draw that harvested your creature Sam.

At less than 10 yards and pointed the arrow tip, could see it and gapped.😜
There is no mysteries to using eye/hand coordination based on having done it before.

 

[Draven O]

I have a question for GrantMac. You mentioned earlier that people who do not estimate distance could not shoot well on a course they were not familiar with or to that effect, and you knew target setters who could set a range so such people would have a hard time hitting the target . My question is how would this course be set , what would they do to make it so difficult ?

I am not Grant but I will tell you some methods:

• force the shooters to shoot at a target past a river / lake.
• put a target in a way that the shooter can’t see the entire animal contour from tail to snout and hoofs /paws to horns.
• use novelty targets. If you had an Elk, change it with a bedded Elk.
• put the animals in a place without background - the less vegetation behind the better. Open field with 3D targets randomly spread will teach a lot about what you thought you know.
• disrupt the idea that small targets are for short distances, medium targets are for medium distances and big targets are for long distances.
• shoot two targets different sizes from same stake.
• force the archer to shoot a target that is at his eye level.
• target up in the tree.
• Turn the targets with the “back” toward the shooter - when most courses are using the same target “facing” the shooter. Example: bedded deer with the back toward the shooter.

These are some of the ways to trick you and you will say “damn, I thought it’s closer / farther “ after your shot.

 

[Creature]

Draven I am still not understanding, sorry. I thought he was saying you had to know the distance to do well. That a instinctive shooter would not do well on a unfamiliar course. I can see where the examples you give would make it harder to judge the distance correctly so would such not make it easier for a true instinctive archer if they were not judging distance ?

 

[Draven O]

In theory, if you are pointing and the arrow goes where you look, yes. In real life, if you didn’t shoot in the above conditions as Instinctive aimer the chances for a kill shot are below 75% with a perfect execution. Add executing inconvenience other than user’s faulty execution and these chances go down 50%. I don’t know how much experience you have in 3D competitions, so you can argue that I am wrong. It is your right, I just know what I see on the 3D courses. Distance in the woods you don’t know is a problem. Having multiple gaps you learnt on flat ground is a problem on up-down Course. There is no easy way out other than really going out and exposing yourself to all kind of novelties. And as Instinctive aimer, this is a must. I don’t say that instinctive aiming is bad, to be clear. But to become good you need a lot more time. It’s a personal choice in the end: keep it close and “around the house” and you can be really good. Jeff Kavanagh is a great instinctive shooter - he has a very good channel on youtube, but he is not posting new stuff often now. But he spent 40 years until he became this good.