[Remote]

Good form, agreed👍
Holding at anchor, you are intuitively remembering the gaps at different yardages from repetitions.
We all do that if we put in time shooting our Bows, that simple, nothing more.

Yes I think the difference is that the instinctive archer doesn't think in "yardages". I have little idea how far I'm shooting in unmarked settings, and am so hopeless at guesstimating yardage that I gave up bothering a long time ago! In all truth distance does not even come to mind. For this reason it's not about "memorising" gaps, at least for me. Less about working from conscious memory than feeling out the shot, or something. Bow arm just goes to where it needs to, the 'instinct' part.

Works for me out to point on, which is a bit past 40m on my current hunting rig. Past that I'm struggling, and really need to conscious gap, at least at my current level. In over a decade I have not been able to group well past point on shooting instinctive. Work to do.

 

[Carboniac]

That is abundantly clear. But if it's important to some archers, or seen that way, who cares? Nothing will be gained by telling someone that what is important to them is BS. Only animosity. You are wasting your own time. I can see you are experienced and help people with that experience often. Why not go pour energy into the stringwalking and conscious gapping threads, a lot of 'demystification' needed for newcomers to those styles. I sure was a bit baffled with bow tune and other things when I learned to stringwalk.

Let those of us that really get a lot of enjoyment from studying instinctive to do our thing. I sure as heck do not think it is factually superior to other styles, solely the mastery of style that I am most impressed by. I'm sure it's the same for most of us.

eh
Theres difference in the way some people share their "enthusiasm."

It when people start presenting it as superior in either purpose and intent or function(particularly purpose and intent), when it starts to be venerated, or when people start making absolute assumptions about all shooters in general that I get prickly.

If you were making posts that talked about what works for you personally and how much you enjoy it, I might occasionally present an alternate view point, but wouldnt get snide about it.
But consistantly in this thread and other "Instinct" shoots cant help themselves.

And being that its a public forum, Ill call those bad attitudes out.

 

[Carboniac]

Yes I think the difference is that the instinctive archer doesn't think in "yardages". I have little idea how far I'm shooting in unmarked settings, and am so hopeless at guesstimating yardage that I gave up bothering a long time ago! In all truth distance does not even come to mind. For this reason it's not about "memorising" gaps, at least for me. Less about working from conscious memory than feeling out the shot, or something. Bow arm just goes to where it needs to, the 'instinct' part.

Works for me out to point on, which is a bit past 40m on my current hunting rig. Past that I'm struggling, and really need to conscious gap, at least at my current level. In over a decade I have not been able to group well past point on shooting instinctive. Work to do.

And this is where the whole problem with does does "instinctive" means arises. It seems you are are applying a different defintion that was applied 30/20/10 years ago.

Split vision/gapstinctive/shotgun shooters regularly estimate range too without actually calculating range. The majority of archers just learn to do that with time shooting. .

 

[Remote]

And this is where the whole problem with does does "instinctive" means arises. It seems you are are applying a different defintion that was applied 30/20/10 years ago.

Split vision/gapstinctive/shotgun shooters regularly estimate range too without actually calculating range. The majority of archers just learn to do that with time shooting. .

Where you are perhaps. Here in Europe we are taught to not estimate distance. The arc of the arrow is your measure, just as with catching a ball, the bow arm rises to meet the target. At anchor for as long as needed to settle the aim. None of the good instinctive shooters I know, and some as good friends, estimate yardage. That just adds conscious guesswork into the aim, which is the very inverse of instinctive.

But whatever works for folk, where they are.

 

[Draven O]

Here in Europe we are taught to not estimate distance.

Taught by who? Danish archers even created a method of estimating distances by using their hand.
The french archers who were taught by Jean Marie Coche - La discipline du tir à l’arc instinctif souple éduqué (méthode Coche) - are taught an aiming system and the exercises are done by shooting from known distances. Shooting known distances is what makes you better shooter at estimating unknown distances. The estimation can be just a "gut feeling" but without shooting known distances you can't develop this.
The exercises here:

http://www.fleche-perdue.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/fleche-de-progression-arc-droit.pdf

I am really curious to know who is teaching to not estimate distance and how the training process is done to achieve this.

 

[Jinkster]

So having the ability to shoot instinctively is an ability some have that others do not?
Sort of an Elite few kind of ability and that is why others don't understand it?
So the ability to aim "Instinctively" is something you have to "work hard" to get?
I mean guys, seriously!🤪

The most important thing is that "instinctive" shooting be explained in a way that makes "instinctive" shooters feel superior or special.

Special abilities, superior effort, deep mystical understanding............

I dont think its a joke.

I think people would do well to try it(or whatever were calling "instictive" in that particular year.) and move on if it doesnt click.

I think the veneration of instinctive shooting is ridiculous.

While I certainly do not consider myself to be elite nor do I consider the way I execute and enjoy my archery to be superior I do have a question that aches to be asked as follows...

Why is it that folks will readily accept that their physical abilities aren't up to the same level to throw a football with the same consistent accuracy as Tom Brady and/or?...readily accept that they lack the physical ability to run a 26 mile marathon in under 4 hours like thousands of others can but when it comes to psychological abilities on the mental side of the games all of a sudden everyone is created equal?

Because if that were the case?...everyone would score the same IQ..."World Chess Champion" could be anyone's title and game shows like Jeopardy would've ended in perpetual 3 way ties! LOL!

So to think or infer that folks gifts and abilities be they physical or psychological are all equal is illogical and to insist that they are is flat out irrational.

Sorry but?...I calls'em like I sees'em! Have a Blessed Day.

 

[Remote]

Taught by who? Danish archers even created a method of estimating distances by using their hand.
The french archers who were taught by Jean Marie Coche - La discipline du tir à l’arc instinctif souple éduqué (méthode Coche) - are taught an aiming system and the exercises are done by shooting from known distances. Shooting known distances is what makes you better shooter at estimating unknown distances. The estimation can be just a "gut feeling" but without shooting known distances you can't develop this.
The exercises here:

http://www.fleche-perdue.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/fleche-de-progression-arc-droit.pdf

I am really curious to know who is teaching to not estimate distance and how the training process is done to achieve this.

Your "Danish archers" are not all Danes, and you cite a unique system that is hardly representative.

Wolfie Hughes runs classes on this very method, "once the arrow is on the bow, don't think about distance, just focus on the spot, trust the process". Distance intuition in meters/yards is expressly forgone in the training. Almost identical to USA's Rick Welch, whom also expressly teaches without distance estimation. Henry Bodnik teaches just the same, as does Jan Wichers of Jäger und Sammler and Gordon Monaghan of Dartmoor Archery. I could go on with many more.

Jean Marie does not teach actual distance estimation in yardage, no, nor thinking in yardage when shooting instinctively, the point of my post. The progression and confidence building method of learning at fixed distances is great yes and Jean Marie has success there. But really as Rick says, it is hard to beat unmarked 3D, one arrow at a time, for building confidence across dynamic settings and learning the arc of one's arrow.

 

[Draven O]

You talk about Europe. So, please, don't show me the stick when you are ignoring the entire forest just to put the emphasis on Wolfie and Welch.
I asked to explain how you train in that method of not estimating distances.

 

[Remote]

You talk about Europe. So, please, don't show me the stick when you are ignoring the entire forest just to put the emphasis on Wolfie and Welch.

No, what's happened is that you cited "Danish Archers" using one method taught there to try to counter the base assertion that distance estimation and yardage calculation was not the norm in European instinctive archery. Which I must say was a bit ridiculous.

If you cannot fathom that distance estimation prior to or at aim is not a function of shooting very well instinctively, that's cool. But don't try forcing that it is!

 

[Draven O]

My answer was after you said "In Europe" like Danes are not in Europe. So, ridiculous was your generalization.

 

[Remote]

My answer was after you said "In Europe" like Danes are not in Europe. So, ridiculous was your generalization.

Oh man

 

[Draven O]

Yes, you win. Btw, you should get out more and you will find some very interesting competitions in Europe - historic bow divisions etc.

 

[Sam Dunham]

I just don't identify as an Instinctive shooter but some do.
Some identify as a String Walker or a Face Walker etc.
In the age of Pronouns and how people Identify.
Instinctive shooting may be an Ideology of sorts?

 

[Remote]

I just don't identify as an Instinctive shooter but some do.
Some identify as a String Walker or a Face Walker etc.
In the age of Pronouns and how people Identify.
Instinctive shooting may be an Ideology of sorts?

Crappy, bottom barrel post, cheers Sam. You came to this thread just to talk up doubt and jabs at other archer's aiming style, now writing it off as an "ideology"? Nothing good to contrib to the actual topic of the thread?

This fanatical, obsessive - ideological - derision of a mere aiming style practicised and loved by millilons of traditional archers is quite enough to have me close my account on this otherwise really generous and welcoming site.

Instinctive shooters can't even start a simple thread without the usual trolls coming along and urinating all over it. Incredible, yet also a bit sad.

@hey Mister thanks for bring this book to our attention and thanks for your mini review. Sorry that simple act has some people foaming at the mouth.

 

[Carboniac]

Where you are perhaps. Here in Europe we are taught to not estimate distance. The arc of the arrow is your measure, just as with catching a ball, the bow arm rises to meet the target. At anchor for as long as needed to settle the aim. None of the good instinctive shooters I know, and some as good friends, estimate yardage. That just adds conscious guesswork into the aim, which is the very inverse of instinctive.

But whatever works for folk, where they are.

I think there is a problem with language here or something.

No one is claiming that with experience most people dont learn to estimate distance/hold without thinking in terms of meters/yards etc and without doing calculations - at least for close distances. Its the same as gapstinctive/split vision/shotgunning.

Its not a big deal essentially everyone learns it do a degree with time spent shooting. Some better than others.


But thats not what "instinctive" has referred to for the 10/20/30 years. Generally the "instinctive" thing has been defined as not using the arrow(or a sight) for aiming. The whole "not seeing the arrow" thing. . Its a fair more controversial idea than trusting your gut and and experience on how high to hold the arrow. Not seeing the arrow is not actually possible and trying to not see it doesnt work for many people.

If when you say "instinctive" shooting you just mean estimating distance without numbers or calculation you are changing the definition and you getting yourself in an argument because it seems like your saying something else.

 

[Remote]

I think there is a problem with language here or something.

No one is claiming that with experience most people dont learn to estimate distance/hold without thinking in terms of meters/yards etc and without doing calculations - at least for close distances. Its the same as gapstinctive/split vision/shotgunning.

Its not a big deal essentially everyone learns it do a degree with time spent shooting. Some better than others.


But thats not what "instinctive" has referred to for the 10/20/30 years. Generally the "instinctive" thing has been defined as not using the arrow(or a sight) for aiming. The whole "not seeing the arrow" thing. . Its a fair more controversial idea than trusting your gut and and experience on how high to hold the arrow. Not seeing the arrow is not actually possible and trying to not see it doesnt work for many people.

If when you say "instinctive" shooting you just mean estimating distance without numbers or calculation you are changing the definition and you getting yourself in an argument because it seems like your saying something else.

You may be right, lossy translation or something.

Still, when I at least are shooting well instinctively there isn't any conscious estimation, yardage or otherwise. There is no "it's that far away so I need to put my point there", you do just look at the spot and the rest takes care of itself. My arrow point is never in focus and when I am shooting well I truly don't actively see it, no. It could just as well be a stick on the ground along the shooting lane. It's there but I'm only looking at the spot. I know my point is there however and it's BS to say I'm not using the point as a reference - of course I am. Just not consciously.

The driving metaphor is a good one - we don't look at the bonnet, just the road ahead.

It's not witchcraft, voodoo, or anything particularly special, any more than catching a ball. It's actually kind of simple, animal, and is only reasonably consistent after a load of practice coming to grips with your gear, the potential energy in bow, your confidence and of course focus. To be any good takes a lot more practice to attain the same accuracy as conscious gapping known distances, for all but the innately gifted, in my opinion. Which for some of us makes it all the more rewarding.

I think this is what the OP was referring to, not intending snark.

 

[Carboniac]

We get the concept of just using you gut based on experience on how high to aim. Its part of a various methods of archery.

That isnt issue with "instinctive" archery.

 

[Sam Dunham]

Fast forward to the 2 min mark. This type of shooting (snap shooting) could be Instinctive, Kind of, because he does not need to hold at anchor to see the gaps.
Arguably he is getting a flash gap but mostly he is relying on just his ability to point up close.

Ricky Welchs method is to "Hold at anchor "and enjoy the sight picture.
Welch is just memorizing the gaps with his method. I've seen him shoot in person on a course at Mayflower and shot with his students.
He taught them good basic form and how to tune their bows.
He calls it instinctive but anyone who understands archery and aiming knows He is gap shooting.

 

[Sam Dunham]

Fred Bear, Hats off with respect guys!👍 RIP Papa Bear🙏
Was a snap shooter and shot Instinctive.
He isn't reaching a settled in anchor. THIS is Instinctive shooting!
Love the Man✅♥

 

[Sam Dunham]

The Fedora Hat was that era. Men from that era wore a Fedora in the country and in town.
It was hat of choice by both of my grandfathers.
Always brown.
Grandfather paternal was an Illinois farmer.
Grandfather Maternal was a coal miner in Kentucky.
It was a good choice then and a good choice now.👍