[Remote]

As for upkeep, I'm certainly going to try to shoot as often as I can. Hell, won't even have to try given this is more addicting than any video game I've ever played. I'm back to my studies next week, and I won't be able to go daily anymore given my schedule. Maybe I can go out to the range every other day and go crazy on the weekends.

I know the feeling - and I started shooting as a kid. Never lets up. Like a lot of us, I'm stir crazy unless I can loose a few. If you can't get to a range, having a spot out the back or even indoors to shoot can make a lot of difference, to scratch the itch. Great for form work, even if you don't have the distance.

 

[OliveB]

I know the feeling - and I started shooting as a kid. Never lets up. Like a lot of us, I'm stir crazy unless I can loose a few. If you can't get to a range, having a spot out the back or even indoors to shoot can make a lot of difference, to scratch the itch. Great for form work, even if you don't have the distance.

Yeah, I'm definitely thinking about installing a simple 10-yard target in my backyard. Haven't done my research on what local legislation has to say about it yet, but sounds like a good investment I should get to sooner than later.

 

[Remote]

Yeah, I'm definitely thinking about installing a simple 10-yard target in my backyard. Haven't done my research on what local legislation has to say about it yet, but sounds like a good investment I should get to sooner than later.

Only thing better than carpet are foam flooring tiles. Ring around, and you'll likely find local outfits replacing carpet or carpet tiles can't give it/them away to you fast enough. Works great.

 

[pavan]

You are doing what Hill described NOT to do in his book in the 40s. Jerry Hill wrote a little book that did the same, but pointed the little, more visual to the shooter than the watcher, hook at the last bit of the the draw. The peeking you are doing is what Hill warned to never do. When I am working out my point on aim distance for a particular bow and arrow, I have done the same. When I did it I shot more static, tightened up for a bit to allow my focus to return. It has a problem that comes with it, your off side eye has a better angle to the arrow tip and will try to take over the shot. If you have a bow that is very easy to draw or shoot split finger and you can draw the arrow without the bowstring, you can practice blank drawing with out releasing. Hill wrote of fixing your eye on an exact spot then bring your finger up, WITHOUT LOOKING AT IT, point at other exact spots, WITHOUT CHANGING YOUR FOCUS ON THE FIRST EXCT SPOT.
A real life example of what can happen with the peeking. I switch hands often, For a time I had two 51 pound Robertson Purists, one left hand and one right hand. I thought I hit the magic button with those. One day while hunting with my left hand Robertson, I saw a turkey coming. It was going to be a very downhill shot. I had my back up to a tree and sitting on my Nifty seat. When the turkey got to a 'good' spot about 25 yards down the hill, I drew. My balance felt a bit awkward, and the thought flashed in my head that this was a new position for me. I took a major peek at the arrow. When one draws right handed your eyes see two arrows, they will be in focus per each eye, human eyes have a very short 'F' stop. The arrow on the left is what the right eye sees and the arrow on the right is what the left eye sees. Reverse that for shooting left handed. Anywho, I drew i held a bit, it looked wrong, I 'peeked'. Without thinking, I adjusted and missed the turkey 2 feet to the right. He left I took out a second arrow, confidently drew and aimed at a leaf where the turkey had been, while finishing the draw without peeking, and hit the leaf i was looking at.

 

[Bowmania]

I think you're shooting instinctive. I don't think you're gapping because gapping is judging the distance from the spot you want to hit AND where the arrow is in your peripheral vision. I can't look at the top of a door and then the door know and tell you how far that is, but if I see one in my peripheral vision, I can.

Bowmania

 

[DDD]

Split-vision is misnomer with a longbow or recurve, unless you shoot with a thumb ring like a horse bow. Horse back archer reference to split-vision right to left, not up and down.
If your trying to explain your subconscious setting the gap. That's done over time with tons of shooting and bridge work. Just like pointing your finger.
DDD

 

[DDD]

No matter the way your aim! Archers most make a conscious decision to make that perfect shot happen especially when hunting.
Any less than that your flinging arrows and that's OK too for fun too.
DDD

 

[Grantmac]

Can you elaborate a bit more on what you mean by go/no-go? If I'm interpreting your message correctly, I think I already do that and it just meshes into loosing when it feels right. No, no, no, ehhh, okay, seems good, release and follow through.

You are building it in at the wrong time. The go/no-go has to occur after anchor, after aiming. When you are focusing solely on continuous expansion (or hold depending on the person, we all feel things differently).
In order to get to that point you need to forget pre-aiming and swing draws, you never see them used by accurate shooters for a reason (except in the past when accuracy standards were much lower). Plus the swing draw is likely to damage your bow shoulder over time, observe all the Hill style shooters who have ruined their shoulders muscling bows they couldn't actually handle.
When you have consistent draw technique the aim is there when you hit anchor and should require only small adjustments below the conscious level. This is NOT instinctive, it's just having a soft aiming focus which is used by some of the very best barebow archers while stringwalking. As you move further back you will require a more firm focus to set the gap then transfer it to the background to hold and execute.

 

[OliveB]

I think you're shooting instinctive. I don't think you're gapping because gapping is judging the distance from the spot you want to hit AND where the arrow is in your peripheral vision. I can't look at the top of a door and then the door know and tell you how far that is, but if I see one in my peripheral vision, I can.

Bowmania

Hey, sounds like you actually understand what I'm talking about!

 

[OliveB]

Split-vision is misnomer with a longbow or recurve, unless you shoot with a thumb ring like a horse bow. Horse back archer reference to split-vision right to left, not up and down.
If your trying to explain your subconscious setting the gap. That's done over time with tons of shooting and bridge work. Just like pointing your finger.
DDD

I'm pretty sure I'm doing both left-right, actually. With the way I'm anchoring back to my ear (that's a whole 'nother topic I discussed in another thread), I recognize that the tip of the arrow is not horizontally in the same plane as my target if I am using split-vision. I could certainly line up my eye like I used to when I was gap shooting, but it feels too awkward for my personal preference, both with my current anchor and with an anchor on my face.

But of course, with the method I've described it's not really a gap for the reasons I explained to you previously. Bowmania has a pretty good analogy for what I'm doing.

 

[OliveB]

I should have been clearer, but that go/no-go in my head does occur after anchor.

you never see them used by accurate shooters for a reason (except in the past when accuracy standards were much lower)

Well, the issue is I don't really care for being as accurate as archers are today. I'm already adopting old methods and mentalities, fostered by some of the advice of Roger Ascham and other sources. Yeah, I fuse this knowledge with modern understandings of archery—I'd certainly like to be hitting my mark and not just lobbing arrows all over the bale—but my feet are firmly set in the old and inefficient ways. I've tried gapping before, and I've hit my mark many times with it; sure, I am more accurate when I gap, but it is no fun.

Rest assured, I am happy with my level of accuracy now, and I am happy with the rate it is developing. I seek to be as accurate as I can, but using modern techniques is where I draw the line. That said, I understand what constitutes as "modern" is highly subjective.

Plus the swing draw is likely to damage your bow shoulder over time, observe all the Hill style shooters who have ruined their shoulders muscling bows they couldn't actually handle.

Of course, I don't want to completely disregard certain concerns. I'll definitely look further into the potential downsides of the swing draw. I can say personally that it hasn't given me too much trouble yet, so long as I take a good bit of time to stretch (EDIT: and take it steady with increasing my draw weight).

 

[DDD]

Drawing to your ear is a type of face walking or floating ⚓ snapshot. But not as accurate as stringwalking with a string blur. Unorthodox you are. So make up your style and call it what you want.
DDD

 

[Remote]

Only to comment that a floating anchor is necessary if exploring combat and horseback archery traditions (Kassai), but I know near zero about either.

 

[Grantmac]

I use a similar draw and "anchor" for thumb shooting non-center cut horsebows.
That doesn't change the process though. I'm holding on focusing on expansion as the string leaves my thumb. Indeed the only real "anchor" in this technique is getting into perfect alignment.

I think that not stressing about accuracy is a good thing with these techniques. Eventually not being able to hit where you want gets to be old and if you build in a good process now it won't be difficult to change your techniques to effective ones down the road.
Build a poor process and that change will require a lot of work.

 

[OliveB]

Drawing to your ear is a type of face walking or floating ⚓ snapshot. But not as accurate as stringwalking with a string blur. Unorthodox you are. So make up your style and call it what you want.
DDD

Hehe, unorthodox indeed. This may swing the level of orthodoxy one way or the other, but I've actually been using the tip of my thumb to anchor with where my earlobe meets the rest of my head. It's actually pretty repeatable, but I've found that my point of contact has naturally gotten lighter, and now my thumb barely brushes my earlobe.

 

[OliveB]

I think that not stressing about accuracy is a good thing with these techniques.

It's been a bit of a fine balance so far. My expectations are lower, but still not low. Naturally, I still aim to get tighter groups and be able to hit exactly where I am looking, which has all been happening more frequently.

 

[OliveB]

Only to comment that a floating anchor is necessary if exploring combat and horseback archery traditions (Kassai), but I know near zero about either.

In my case, I'm more or less following the historical convention to maximize the power out of my bow, as Ascham details in his Toxophilus. It is without purpose today, given I won't expect to be fighting in Agincourt any time soon, but it is a style I prefer for the historical aspect. I also prefer it simply because I like to feel the full strength of my bow in my hands.

On a semi-practical note, I also accomplish a 28-inch draw when I draw in this way. Otherwise, it is shorter. Of course, I know that benefit alone does not make this more practical, but it is one helpful, little quirk.

 

[everwood]

Grantmac can probably outshoot everyone here. how do I know? Scores. Direct measures. Plain to see. No voodoo. No ego. Facts. Hard Data. No feelings.

Which brings me to my point and question:
Since you’re shouting 20yds you should score it. If you’re not accustomed to it then shoot the target face for a week or til you get use to it then score it. Report. You’ll get ten times more beneficial advice. If you’re really brave you can share vid. Everyone here is pretty dang nice with stuff like that.

has Anyone ever been to another forum? Cars or trucks? Guns? Clothing? You know what they do there? They talk about personal opinions but they also talk shop. “My truck is super fast it has this or that”. Then they actually tell you the 1/4 time or mph. Or horsepower. They say it measures this or it measures that. Everyone here avoids that like the plague. No one likes to measure except draw weight and 89% front of center. I’d take everyone’s advice with a grain of salt or pm them and ask them what kind of scores they are shooting. Also them knowing what you are actually capable of is much more important than naming a certain style.
Different bits of advice depending on where you are and what you need rather than everyone being easier to help and guessing.
My $0.02

 

[OliveB]

Alright, I let loose of a few dozen more arrows, and I have new findings. McDave and Longbowguy, your speculations are mostly correct.

First things first, I am not more accurate with the aiming method I've described compared to when I shoot fully instinctively, at least once I am "geared in." If it's my first arrow or two of the end, then sure, my arrow is more predictable. Otherwise, full instinctive is just as good, if not better.

In fact, as noted by a few others, it has some downsides. After a while, peek at my arrow is just distracting, rapidly straining my ability to focus. I originally noted that this aiming method is just as satisfying as pure instinctive, but after back-to-back comparisons, I have to say I vastly prefer the latter. The latter is much more natural and fluid.

Ascham describes this as a "shift," and I have to agree with him and the others who have said or implied this. At most, this is a shift that I can employ with my first loose or two in an end, just to roughly get my bearings. Afterwards, it has no purpose. As Longbowguy said, however, it is likely that this shift will one day be entirely shed, and I do seek that day where I can loose my first arrow as confidently as I do my tenth.

For those of you who have invited and sustained open discussion, thank you.

Unrelated P.S.
I really need to stop accidentally liking comments when I hit reply.

 

[OliveB]

Grantmac can probably outshoot everyone here. how do I know? Scores. Direct measures. Plain to see. No voodoo. No ego. Facts. Hard Data. No feelings.

Which brings me to my point and question:
Since you’re shouting 20yds you should score it. If you’re not accustomed to it then shoot the target face for a week or til you get use to it then score it. Report. You’ll get ten times more beneficial advice. If you’re really brave you can share vid. Everyone here is pretty dang nice with stuff like that.

has Anyone ever been to another forum? Cars or trucks? Guns? Clothing? You know what they do there? They talk about personal opinions but they also talk shop. “My truck is super fast it has this or that”. Then they actually tell you the 1/4 time or mph. Or horsepower. They say it measures this or it measures that. Everyone here avoids that like the plague. No one likes to measure except draw weight and 89% front of center. I’d take everyone’s advice with a grain of salt or pm them and ask them what kind of scores they are shooting. Also them knowing what you are actually capable of is much more important than naming a certain style.
Different bits of advice depending on where you are and what you need rather than everyone being easier to help and guessing.
My $0.02

Thank you for providing your perspective. I unfortunately have no numbers to point to, since I am using 3x3 in. cloth patches cut from old clothes instead of target faces. "Better/worse than yesterday" is the very rough metric I use.

I suppose I could begin to purchase target faces or use a measuring tape, but in all honesty, it is an unappealing prospect. Of course, I recognize the limitations that come with that, but I would rather worry about numbers in my studies and my work only.