[stevelong]

I want to see the string do that HARD STOP.
ain't happening, right?
if it was, "they" wouldn't have needed the string stops/rubber bumpers below grip, years back..... folks took the idea from their compound's use and used them in recurves........

 

[Supraspinatus]

Steve, I don't think it does a hard stop at brace. I've been watching some vids, and it looks like the string always bounces around wildly at brace height. I was more concerned about the bottom half of the string in this pic:

I think this is what Hank is describing as an artefact of photo equipment not up to the task. I suspect he's right, but I've since seen that behavior in some super slow videos, like this one:

At 0:41 and 2:24, I think we can see the same behavior - the string below the arrow appearing slack and bending toward the bow. (Even though this is slow mo, it helps to set speed to 0.25x to give ya time to hit pause fast enough. I wish YouTube was set up for frame by frame advancement.)

Two hypotheses:

1. I'm seeing the same slack lower string in these different images because it is in the lower half of the photo frame, and thus subject to the distortion that Hank is describing. Hank says we need better tools to falsify this hypothesis.

2. We're seeing slack in the lower half of the string due to positive tiller. Again, I think we need better tools to falsify this one, and/or some printed authority that describes this behavior.

Bonus hypothesis: it's a combination of the two, with the photo artefact exaggerating tiller effects.

 

[Hank D Thoreau]

Keep in mind that film takes time to capture an image. That is why you need high ASA (fast film) and fast shutter speeds to capture fast images.

The faster the shutter speed, the shorter the blur.

I am not up to date on the current high-speed technology. The key is that the speed of the measuring system must be much faster than the speed of what is being measured.

The difference in speed between what is being measured and the measuring system dictates the accuracy of the measurement.

The key question to ask is, "how far does the object travel in the time period necessary to capture the image?".

Anyone doing studies in this area needs to start by understanding the answer to this question. It is not enough to say you have a high-speed camera so the photo must represent reality. Proper experiments start with a validation of the measurement system. Someone could come up with a higher speed camera and reach a completely different conclusion. It is unclear whether what we call super slo-mo captures images fast enough. It is great for football but may not be suitable for ballistics.

Also keep in mind that the speed of the archer is much slower than the speed of the string. So images intended to study form of the archer will probably not be suitable for studying the motion of the string. A camera that is fast enough to capture string behavior would likely be too fast for studying form issues unless you want to really, really, slow down the archer. I am kind of thrashing back and forth between talking about still and video imaging, but they are related.

 

[Supraspinatus]

Thanks, Hank. My wife is a photographer and has some pretty fancy gear. I'll see what she can do, but this might remain in the "probably artefact" category.

 

[Remote]

Hank, what kind of camera equipment would be required to capture accurate string motion without such artefacts? An SLR with film? A DSLR with global shutter?

I reckon both, based on my understanding! High end sports cameras have these global shutters - raceline finish shots, soccer goal cameras, ballistics, etc.

EDIT: seem to be fairly new in the consumer photography world https://www.digitalcameraworld.com/news/canon-announces-its-first-full-frame-global-shutter-sensor

 

[MAC12563]

I reckon both, based on my understanding! High end sports cameras have these global shutters - raceline finish shots, soccer goal cameras, ballistics, etc.

EDIT: seem to be fairly new in the consumer photography world https://www.digitalcameraworld.com/news/canon-announces-its-first-full-frame-global-shutter-sensor

I have had this discussion for many years now with lots of people and those touting how their new iPhone, Android and or camera has killer Megapixels counts. Though there are many advantages to digital cameras, I will stick with my Medium format film camera that has an equivalent 400 MP resolution. Over the years people always stop me on the street when I am photographing to ask about my camera because of its unusual apperance and having to look down from the top to the viewing screen. They find it strange why I would be using film instead of a digital camera until I explain to them why film in many situations is still in my opinion superior. The quality of the prints I can produce are better.

My camera is as old as I am, also born in 1963. The old Rollei factory repair guy who serviced my camera once assured me that the camera will outlive me by a wide margin. The era when they built things to last.

 

[Sam Dunham]

I want to see the string do that HARD STOP.
ain't happening, right?
if it was, "they" wouldn't have needed the string stops/rubber bumpers below grip, years back..... folks took the idea from their compound's use and used them in recurves........

Exactly why we went to D-97 over Dacron.

 

[Sam Dunham]

I have had this discussion for many years now with lots of people and those touting how their new iPhone, Android and or camera has killer Megapixels counts. Though there are many advantages to digital cameras, I will stick with my Medium format film camera that has an equivalent 400 MP resolution. Over the years people always stop me on the street when I am photographing to ask about my camera because of its unusual apperance and having to look down from the top to the viewing screen. They find it strange why I would be using film instead of a digital camera until I explain to them why film in many situations is still in my opinion superior. The quality of the prints I can produce are better.

My camera is as old as I am, also born in 1963. The old Rollei factory repair guy who serviced my camera once assured me that the camera will outlive me by a wide margin. The era when they built things to last.

View attachment 44150

They have to be cleaned and lubed like a Rolex or a FN Mauser 98 Supreme but last and last with proper maintenance.

 

[bressansteven1]

Not only is the string moving that far to the belly of the bow you should see a slow motion and see how much the riser flexes. The arrow is only on the string for about the first 16 inches of flight then it's gone and not influenced by the vibrations seen in the picture.

 

[Hank D Thoreau]

I have had this discussion for many years now with lots of people and those touting how their new iPhone, Android and or camera has killer Megapixels counts. Though there are many advantages to digital cameras, I will stick with my Medium format film camera that has an equivalent 400 MP resolution. Over the years people always stop me on the street when I am photographing to ask about my camera because of its unusual apperance and having to look down from the top to the viewing screen. They find it strange why I would be using film instead of a digital camera until I explain to them why film in many situations is still in my opinion superior. The quality of the prints I can produce are better.

My camera is as old as I am, also born in 1963. The old Rollei factory repair guy who serviced my camera once assured me that the camera will outlive me by a wide margin. The era when they built things to last.

View attachment 44150

I used to use a Yashika 2 1/4 which is very similar to yours. I really liked being able to look down and compose on the grid.

I carried it on a ten day climbing and backpacking trip in the Sierra Nevada Mountains. I shot black and white.

I remember hauling my brother's 4 by 5 view camera around Yosemite Valley like I was Ansel Adams. That camera was a beast.

I came from a family of photographers. My interest in photography came as an artistic outlet when I dropped art as a major my junior year in college (I was a chemistry and art dual major at the time).

Photography was perfect since I could combine my compositional knowledge from art with my understanding of optics from physics.

I was a late adopter of digital for the same reason you still shoot film.

My problem now is that I have boxes of slides and prints which are much more difficult to manage than digital.

Also, a lot of my old pictures have lost their color despite careful storage. My wife has been saving these by converting them to black and white.

 

[CD]

Here is a link which discusses photographic distortion:

Focal Plane Distortion of Shaft Bend

Pictures of shafts bending often have the bend distorted, due to the way digital cameras and even focal plane shutters work.

www.tutelman.com

Note: the article is from 2016, and I am not sure if today's digital cameras are relatively free of 'distortion' but still, it's an interesting read.

 

[MAC12563]

I used to use a Yashika 2 1/4 which is very similar to yours. I really liked being able to look down and compose on the grid.

I carried it on a ten day climbing and backpacking trip in the Sierra Nevada Mountains. I shot black and white.

I remember hauling my brother's 4 by 5 view camera around Yosemite Valley like I was Ansel Adams. That camera was a beast.

I came from a family of photographers. My interest in photography came as an artistic outlet when I dropped art as a major my junior year in college (I was a chemistry and art dual major at the time).

Photography was perfect since I could combine my compositional knowledge from art with my understanding of optics from physics.

I was a late adopter of digital for the same reason you still shoot film.

My problem now is that I have boxes of slides and prints which are much more difficult to manage than digital.

Also, a lot of my old pictures have lost their color despite careful storage. My wife has been saving these by converting them to black and white.

I too really enjoy photography and most of my work is B&W with some color negatives. With film you need to slow down and really understand the craft and art of composing a photo. Many who are digital photographers use a shotgun approach to photography taking hundreds of photos and then picking the best of the bunch. That is so contrary to how I like to work. One vital piece that is missing in digital for me is the serendipity which film provides. Because previewing every exposure instantly as is possible with digital negates the surprise of developing a roll of film and finding an unexpected jewel of a photo. My other gripe with digital is that colors though very vibrant they do not always represent the natural colors of the subject you are shooting. I know this is a personal preference thing and many like the way digital represents colors. I find it very funny that many digital cameras and photo manipulation software have a "Film" filter to simulate the look of film for their digital photos.

The 4 x 5 and larger format take phenomenal photos and are worth the inconvenience in my opinion. Have you heard of Ian Ruhter? He does colloidal silver wet plate at whole other scale. I think his work is fascinating and beautiful.

Ian RuhterIan Ruhter | Silver & Light

Ian Ruhter created the world's largest wet plate collodion cameras to make photographs in a way that has never been seen before.

www.ianruhter.com

SHORT FILMS Prints

www.ianruhter.com

Many people are not aware that yes digital is easy to share photos and manipulate, but when you scan film you actually degrade the quality of the negative. For example as I have said that a Medium format film camera is similar to 400 MP but when it is scanned digitally you get only 50 to 80 MP, so digitizing comes at a price. I would assume you still have the negatives of your photo prints so you can create a new print of those photos that have not aged well?

I print and mount many of my photos, and have given them away as gifts over the years. I also have digital copies of my work which does help organize greatly and keep track of my work. I did this mostly because I gave my Dad a digital photo frame with many of my photos on it that changes continually to a new photo every few minutes and he really enjoys looking at the different photos throughout the day.

No matter your preference digital or film, photography is a very powerful medium. Think of how many photo images have changed the world throughout the history of photography, and how impactful they are in ones own life.

 

[pavan]

Since most here believe the wild looking string is a digital distortion, I would like to pictures that are clear with a straight working string.

 

[Supraspinatus]

I am going to try to do that. Might take a week or so to report back on the attempt.

 

[inyago]

i say that the average camera is not capable of smoothly catching a bow string thru its power stroke. their are cameras with up to 1000000 frame rates capable of turning an arrow shot into a
5 minute movie, but what's the point. What hank said is right, the camera is catching the string in seperate parts of the power stroke.All bow strings bounce and vibrate, but trad bows are capable
of handling the forces but compounds need string stop assist.

 

[Chooble McStevens]

I have had this discussion for many years now with lots of people and those touting how their new iPhone, Android and or camera has killer Megapixels counts. Though there are many advantages to digital cameras, I will stick with my Medium format film camera that has an equivalent 400 MP resolution. Over the years people always stop me on the street when I am photographing to ask about my camera because of its unusual apperance and having to look down from the top to the viewing screen. They find it strange why I would be using film instead of a digital camera until I explain to them why film in many situations is still in my opinion superior. The quality of the prints I can produce are better.

My camera is as old as I am, also born in 1963. The old Rollei factory repair guy who serviced my camera once assured me that the camera will outlive me by a wide margin. The era when they built things to last.

View attachment 44150

What that camera cannot do is film at 240fps, if you're comparing to an iPhone. And to be honest this debate ended a decade or more ago, the only advantage film offers now is "warmth" which can be added digitally, compared to a high-end digital SLR. But like an old car, yours is much more easily serviceable.

 

[MAC12563]

What that camera cannot do is film at 240fps, if you're comparing to an iPhone. And to be honest this debate ended a decade or more ago, the only advantage film offers now is "warmth" which can be added digitally, compared to a high-end digital SLR. But like an old car, yours is much more easily serviceable.

I appreciate your opinion, but fps are irrelivant to me when taking a photo and even high end digital SLR's show their weakness when you blow the image up to poster format or greater in comparison to a Medium format negative print at that size. Yes digital does have it's advantages, but having more features in not an indication that it is superior. I enjoy film and the process it requires. I hope you enjoy your iPhone and the photo's you are able capture with it.

 

[Supraspinatus]

I think this video provides strong evidence that Hank is correct:

1000 fps camera and the string does not distort at all like seen in the photos in the OP. The odd string behavior in photos does most probably represent artefacts of the camera equipment used to make them.