[Halpenny]

I recently bought a DAS Dalaa 17 with 45 pound medium limbs and was giving aluminums a try. I have a 28.5 draw length. I am wanting to shoot the arrows full or as close to full length as possible. I bought 3 spines to try 2018’s 2117’s and 2216’s.

I am shooting stock 25 grain inserts and have 100 and 125 grain field points (I am awaiting heavier points to be delivered) I would like to shoot between 125 to 175 grains up front due to broadhead selection.

No mater what I do I am getting a massive nock left tear through paper, I am right handed.

I have worked and worked on form. I have been shooting barebow for several months and average 250 on a 300 round which is not amazing but not terrible either. I filmed myself and appear to have good alignment and follow through and no visible pluck. I have even played around with my hook depth and am getting the same tears.

Is this a false weak and possibly need to bump up my point weight more.

I was playing around with a black eagle rampage 350 spine cut to 28” and with a 52 grain insert and 125 grain point up front I am getting a bullet hole with a bare shaft.

Is this a false weak and possibly need to bump up my point weight more. Or does my form just require a stiffer arrow?


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[Jim Casto Jr]

I tip my hat to anyone that can paper tune a bow shooting with fingers. I never could pull it off. All I ever found out with paper is move up or back a couple feet and get different readings.

My preferred method is to arrow and bare shaft group tune; start close make adjustments and move back a little, then do it again. I get immediate feedback as to what exactly is going on.

Good luck to you.

 

[Halpenny]

I tip my hat to anyone that can paper tune a bow shooting with fingers. I never could pull it off. All I ever found out with paper is move up or back a couple feet and get different readings.

My preferred method is to arrow and bare shaft group tune; start close make adjustments and move back a little, then do it again. I get immediate feedback as to what exactly is going on.

Good luck to you.

Thank you, I’m just trying to get it close before I go to a range where I can group tune. Right now bareshafts are basically coming out sideways. Lol


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[c_m_shooter]

Those are all too stiff unless you are shooting 200 grain points. Paper tuning when shooting fingers is tough. Bareshafts will tell you the truth.

 

[Halpenny]

I dug up some other arrows in my shed and I found a gold tip hunter cut to 30” in 400 spine. I was able to get it to tune with 200 grains up front. I also found a 500 cut to 29 and was able to get it to tune at 100 up front. With that being said I should be able to get the 2018 to tune with a 125 grain head if I cut it down a tad. And I should be able to get the 2117 to tune with more weight up front.


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[Bowmania]

Wait, you're shooting 250 on a blue face and you want to change something??? Sixty arrows at 20 yards, 5 points for a bull. I'm missing something?

Don't use paper. Use Tuning Document.

Bowmania

 

[longbowguy]

Try the paper at a variety of distances. Arrows are commonly still wigwagging in paradox out to 15 or 20 yards and give various results at various distances, so meaningless. - lbg

 

[Jim Casto Jr]

Might be entertaining to have a (or rather,another) discussion about the archers paradox and what it is and isn't.

 

[WP79Vet]

My draw length is 28.5 inches, and I've used 2018s and 2117s extensively in fairly hot bows that draw 53 lbs. So... I'd say that all of those shafts are very stiff for a 45 lb bow. My guess is that you are actually getting extreme tail right arrow flight. If that's correct, the reason it's showing up as tail left when you shoot through paper is that the tails of your arrows are slamming into your riser as they go by. I recommend either trying much heavier points, or going to more flexible shafts like 2016s, or even shafts with 19/64 diameters.

I've used paper tuning for 40 years, and it works extremely well as long as you account for archer's paradox, as Longbowguy indicates, and also for possible over-correction by your fletching. Over-correction happens when you are using big fletching, and it can cause the tail of an arrow to wag back and forth for a short distance downrange because each time the arrow is flying a bit sideways, the big fletching corrects too hard and pushes the tail of the arrow beyond straight flight. This is a well-known issue in guided missile technology (and in designing shock absorbers for automobiles and other applications), and there are very sophisticated algorithms for determining the right correction for a given condition. I've seen overcorrection in my own shooting when I use field points on hunting arrows with 5 inch 3-fletch for stabilizing large broadheads.

The key to tuning through paper is to take out the over-correction and fletch clearance issues by shooting a bare shaft which is matched in length, point weight, and nock end weight to your fletched arrows. (To match the nock end weight, take an aluminum point insert, cut it so that it weighs the same as your fletching and will go all the way inside your shaft, and hot-melt glue it into your shaft at the fletching position. Very important when you intend to shoot vanes, which are heavy. Less important for feathers, because they are fairly light.) Shoot this arrow through the paper at a variety of distances from the paper, at maybe 2 yard intervals, starting at about 3 yards. When the arrow is, say, too weak-spined, you'll see all tears to the left, but the length of the tear will vary with distance to the target due to archer's paradox. When you are tuned, all of your tears will be short, but at some distances they will be left, at some they will be bullet holes, and at some they will be right. When you are tuned using a bare shaft, your fletched shaft arrow flight should be perfect - unless you have fletch clearance issues. Because your arrows are flying well, though, fletch clearance issues are easily solved by slight rotations of your nocks.

I greatly prefer paper tuning because it takes the archer's shooting accuracy out of diagnosing tuning problems. Shooting accuracy issues, by the way, are generally NOT random, so you can't average them out by shooting lots of arrows.

 

[wozie]

Don't try to paper tune.

 

[Sam Dunham]

Might be entertaining to have a (or rather,another) discussion about the archers paradox and what it is and isn't.

The elusive "S" curve👍

 

[Jim Casto Jr]

Yep, Sam we sure need that discussion. 🤔

 

[North Bay Deer Hunter]

I recently bought a DAS Dalaa 17 with 45 pound medium limbs and was giving aluminums a try. I have a 28.5 draw length. I am wanting to shoot the arrows full or as close to full length as possible. I bought 3 spines to try 2018’s 2117’s and 2216’s.

I am shooting stock 25 grain inserts and have 100 and 125 grain field points (I am awaiting heavier points to be delivered) I would like to shoot between 125 to 175 grains up front due to broadhead selection.

No mater what I do I am getting a massive nock left tear through paper, I am right handed.

I have worked and worked on form. I have been shooting barebow for several months and average 250 on a 300 round which is not amazing but not terrible either. I filmed myself and appear to have good alignment and follow through and no visible pluck. I have even played around with my hook depth and am getting the same tears.

Is this a false weak and possibly need to bump up my point weight more.

I was playing around with a black eagle rampage 350 spine cut to 28” and with a 52 grain insert and 125 grain point up front I am getting a bullet hole with a bare shaft.

Is this a false weak and possibly need to bump up my point weight more. Or does my form just require a stiffer arrow?


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One of the issues I have is if I roll the string with my fingers, I always shoot nock left when this happens. It may be your release. Try and get the string on the tips of your fingers instead of a deeper hook if you know what I mean. Not to say that's the problem but it's something that caused me to blow shots. I paper tune as well and I notice that even when I get pass throughs on paper that are 100% perfect when I hook too deep and don't get a smooth release I get nock left shots. Something to try anyways.