[DJTJR]

Hey guys I have a longish draw at 30 inches which essentially makes me leave my arrows at full length. When I try to get may carbons to tune I end up having to get really heavy spines and really light points for most of my bows. It's less of an issue with target weight bows but with some of my hunting weight bows even On The not so heavy side like 55 pounds I end up with .300 or more spine arrows and light point weight which just seems too stiff based on all calculations and calculators. What do you guys with long draw lengths do? It seems cutting arrows is the best way to stiffen an arrow but with that not an option for my length what can I do that doesn't take away from the performance of the bow which I obviously want to maximize for obvious reasons? Again less of an issue with lighter weight bows but it seems there are not arrows readily available that at 31-32 inches are stiff enough if I'm shooting a 60 lb bow? My deer bow is much lighter but if I want to shoot anything bigger I can't get great bareshaft flight and always show weak.

 

[13033]

Can't talk about carbons, but talk about woodies.

I know that is not addressing your issue.

I draw 30" and shoot 31" BOH.

Draw weight is 65 pounds.

Have to use an 85 spine, because, if I use less, I have to use a lighter broadhead, which,in turn, skews the FOC

85 spines allow me to use 90 grain heads, with an FOC of 12%

The only similarity in issues, is balancing length, spine and broadhead weight, to insure adequate FOC.

 

[kenn1320]

Move closer to center shot. I shoot 29.75" DL and at 45lbs at my DL I need .400 spine full length shafts with 200gr points(shot off the shelf).

 

[John Havard]

Don,

Centershot, arrow length, arrow spine, point weight, draw weight and bow performance per pound of draw all enter into the equation. Generally speaking, with long arrow shafts and heavy point weights and with heavy/high-performance bows you will need to be very near if not perfectly centershot AND you will need a very stiff arrow spine. Set it up just as you would a centershot compound and your days will be filled with joy. If you are shooting an elevated rest/flipper & plunger AND the sight window is cut far enough past center you can tune the bow to the arrow up to a certain point.

I draw 30" when bored and closer to 31" when excited. My arrows are all 31.75" to BOP and I shoot bows in the weight range you describe. My current favorite hunting arrows are Gold Tip Kinetic 200's with 250-300 grains of point weight. They fly like lasers. I have them set up to be dead centershot when on the rest.

 

[DJTJR]

Thanks guys, also good to hear from you John. To further the thought with a wood riser bow I can't get to center shot so I assume I just have to go way up in spine? Perhaps it's that my draw length is fairly unusual and that extra few inches really does make that big a difference bit I read so much about bow and arrow combos that if I shot the same bow and arrow spine my bareshaft a wouldn't even be on a big target at 25 yards.

 

[DJTJR]

Also by moving to center shot on the bows that I can adjust do I theoretically lose some forgiveness? In target conditions I am less concerned as I have the time to make sure it's just right but with a hunting rig shooting from sometimes awkward angles the foreignness is important to me.

 

[John Havard]

Don, by moving more toward centershot on risers cut well past center you GAIN forgiveness in spine. With a bow that's not cut well past center you have to enter the delicate and sometimes frustrating kabuki dance of matching just the perfect arrow spine to your needed draw length, point weight, shaft diameter, sight window relative to centershot, and bow performance. If you have a riser cut well past center you can dial in your plunger (or all-in-one arrow rest) and live large. Right now the recurve I'm shooting has an aluminum riser cut well past center with a plunger and flipper rest with a D-loop on the string and a caliper release. It's all good. If you don't want to do the kabuki dance just get an aluminum riser and elevated rest and relax.

 

[Matt_Potter]

John

Do you think you could get away with that much spine if you weren't shooting a release?

Matt


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Team Montana - we are coming for your quarters ;-)

 

[John Havard]

Sure Matt. I've only recently been playing around with a release. And while my three-under release is far from perfect I've gotten good (for me) arrow flight with fingers. It's the same spine arrow I've been shooting for the past couple of years as my hunting setup with fingers. While I'm no finely-oiled target archer like you I've done okay and at least to my eye have gotten good arrow flight with this combo. I've always preferred to have my arrows dead center shot when on the rest. I like to sight straight down the arrow shaft to help me with windage. With long shafts and heavy point weights I find that I get better arrow flight with super-stiff spines. It's goofy to my eyes to have the arrow point well to the left of the target.

 

[ScottE]

You can shoot a 250 spine and add weight to the back of the arrow (wraps, pin nocks, four fletch etc). How far weak to your bare shafts hit? How is the arrow flight despite the weak arrow shaft?

The gold tip kinetic has a 200 spine.

I dont shoot your draw weight but at 45 pounds I'm shooting 150 up front on a full length .500 shaft.

I have a 31 inch draw length so I feel your pain finding arrows that are long enough. The CE Heritage are my go to at 32 3/4" long.

 

[DJTJR]

So to add a new dynamic to the question with the non center shot risers conventional tuning would say to build out the sideplate to strengthen the spine (at least that's what it says on OLs tuning page) that seems to go contrary to the bring it more to center shot logic discussed above. What's the dynamic that I am missing? I too like to sight down the arrow but I feel that being a little left (rt hand shooter) of center allows me to do that without having to look through the string as I shoot a bow vertically. I am no expert archer but can hold minute of softball at 30 yards so I am decent enough tone able to see and feel the differences.

 

[ScottE]

When a bow is not cut to center the arrow has to bend around the riser more so you need a weaker spine. For example you might need a 400 spine arrow out of a black widow recurve vs a 600 spine out of a self bow.

 

[Easykeeper]

Listen to what your bare shafts tell you, if you are unsure what's happening keep moving back. When you have two or three bare shafts and two or three fletch grouping together at 25-30 yards you should be in good shape.

It sounds like you have O.L. Adcocks tuning guide but this is the bare shaft tuning section if I misunderstood you...http://www.acsbows.com/bareshaftplaning.html

A 55#-60# bow and 30" draw length is going to need a relatively stiff arrow. I draw 29" or a bit over and my recurves that range from 50#-59# at my draw length all shoot a 31" .340, point weight varies with the bow but goes from 150-250 grains. If you are using a longer arrow, have a longer draw length, and the bow weight you mentioned it's quite possible a .300 and light point is what you need.

 

[DJTJR]

Yes I have OLs web page I think it's great and has always worked with me for my lighter bows. I am sure it will work with my heavier ones too I just seem to run out of spine and end up at spines that just seem a lot heavier than most others are shooting but they are usually shooting at 28 or less so that does make a big difference I guess

Also what are pin nocks? I do like the adding weight at the back of the arrow for a hunting bow as that would drive kinetic energy up and be good for penetration. If it also helps solve the spine issue I am glad to try it.

 

[John Havard]

Don, the more an arrow has to bend around the sight window (like when you build out the side plate or on a self-bow) the arrow spine needs to be weaker in order for the arrow to flex around. There are several ways to weaken spine: more weight up front, longer shaft, lower spine rating on the shaft.

Adding weight to the back of the arrow reduces FOC and would not aid penetration nearly as much as adding that same amount to the front of the arrow (which increases FOC).

Bows that allow you to set up an arrow so that it's dead centershot need arrows that don't flex. The farther away from centershot that your bow is requires weaker shafts. But remember that the shafts you're shooting are longer than your buddies' shafts. So if they are shooting the same exact bow with a 28" to BOP shaft they will need a weaker spine than you with a 31" shaft (ceteris paribus).

 

[Matt_Potter]

Sure Matt. I've only recently been playing around with a release. And while my three-under release is far from perfect I've gotten good (for me) arrow flight with fingers. It's the same spine arrow I've been shooting for the past couple of years as my hunting setup with fingers. While I'm no finely-oiled target archer like you I've done okay and at least to my eye have gotten good arrow flight with this combo. I've always preferred to have my arrows dead center shot when on the rest. I like to sight straight down the arrow shaft to help me with windage. With long shafts and heavy point weights I find that I get better arrow flight with super-stiff spines. It's goofy to my eyes to have the arrow point well to the left of the target.

Far from finely oiled LOL little more like rusty at this point.

Always been curious about the effect of a release on your tune which is why I asked.

I also get a huge kick out of how different set ups work for different people. I have no doubt in my mind that that arrow is tuned perfectly for you. I'm not sure I could get it to work for me. But heck I shoot a 32.5 inch 400 spine with 175 up front so really not that different.

Matt

 

[John Havard]

Matt, most of us would love to be as "rusty" as you!

The release tightens up my groups. Perhaps it's more a testament to how lousy my finger release is than the benefit of using a mechanical release, but I notice a distinct shrinking of my average group size when I use a release. My sight picture is something I'm still struggling with (with release versus fingers) but I have not yet changed anything on my tune. If I decide to continue using a release and D-loop I'll need to change nock point but left/right arrow flight seems dead on.