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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
It has to do something, but what. 0 to 3/8's is standard. 0 for three under and 3/8's for split. I shoot split and have been tuning at even (0) and 1/8 and 2/8's and 4/8's. I did skip 3/8, but I thought I'd try something extreme. Can't get the up and down kick out of a bare shaft. Started out and got the impacts in the same spot, but the bare still kicked. I'm puzzled.

Bowmania
 

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Sounds like you may have two things going on. I do set even tiller for 3 under, then address nock serving by starting high intentionally to avoid kicking off the shelf. 1/2", even 5/8" to the bottom serving, and then work down a twist at a time. I stop when the bare shaft is slightly high.

Now shoot some groups. If I'm shooting good groups but still high of the mark I'd consider moving nock servings up a little first to get the gap I want. If I'm still a little high of the mark, then I might play with tiller slightly, decreasing the top tiller or increasing bottom tiller to bring them down.....my 2 cents.

https://www.archersadvantage.com/TipSheets/TillerTuning.htm
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Well, I doubt it's my fingers. I have a cheap set up that shoots a bullet hole through paper.

Most of the 50 times I started over, I started 7/8's high and worked down until I knew it was hitting the shelf. That's why I'm thinking tiller.

Bowmania
 

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How is nock fit? Even shooting split I would tie a second nock under the arrow to keep it from sliding down upon release. Keep tiller around 1\8" less than the top. If you are shooting new high performance limbs you might have to try a different spine.
 

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Well, I doubt it's my fingers. I have a cheap set up that shoots a bullet hole through paper.

Most of the 50 times I started over, I started 7/8's high and worked down until I knew it was hitting the shelf. That's why I'm thinking tiller.

Bowmania
You have cheap fingers that shoot bullets !!! WOW :eek:
 

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Set it at even or 1/4 positive have somebody take a side angle pic of the limb profile at full draw to see if one limb is visibly flexing more than the other. Limbs sometimes get miss-marked. You may be able to swap upper and lower and tell the same thing if tiller changes drastically. Some bowyers may void the warranty if you shoot them like this, but it shouldn't hurt just to check. You can cause some of what you're seeing with your bow hand pressure. If your "healing" the bow with a lot of pressure down a the base of the thumb try a higher wrist with the pressure point more up in the web and see what happens. By the way, even when I shot split I still used a second nock under the arrow. Nock tightness is another thing that needs to be right.
 

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Bullet holes threw paper?

Curious... at what distance? I could NEVER pull off paper tuning. I envy those who can.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
CCH, All my shooting was done with 2 nocking points. I have thought of nocking points and they maybe a LITTLE on the tight side. As you can see from my original post I've tried even and 1/8 tiller. These are high performance limbs, but this is a nocking point, Up and Down issue not left or right.

Olddog, swapped out the limbs and tiller is the same. Swapped out higher wrist to no grip.

Jim, It was a bare shaft bullet hole. Spig Revolution and BlackMax limbs shot from a Viper suggested 15 feet. I do my final broadhead verification at 12 feet and 12 yards. Funny I tuned that bow with 4 shots - two bare shafts and 2 fletched. One point weight change.

Aroadik, My fingers are pretty valuable to me. I have I think 350 in that Spig setup. I suspect my problem might be 1000 limbs on a 200 dollar riser???

Bowmania
 

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Barebow recurve
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Getting bullet holes through paper depends on which phase of oscillation the arrow is in as it recovers from the archer's paradox. Very dependent on precise distance from the paper. This is why finger shooters use bare shafts for fine tuning.
 

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Pardon me if this sounds basic but are you readjusting the nock point when you change the tiller?

Off the shelf or elevated rest?

Back when I was shooting my DAS bows found that 1/16" positive top and 5/16" above square nock point(nock under) worked suburbly with my split finger/tab release. This worked whether elevated or shooting off the DAS bump.

Every time I tried a higher tiller had to use a higher nock point. Oh was using standard carbon shafts with Easton uni nocks with throat opened. Tick nocks on string can cause issues.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Kelly, that is pretty basic. I have not mention to what extent I've been working on this. Currently working with a strike plate and elevated rug, but started with a plunger and flipper. I mention in an above post starting 50 times. That's an exaggeration, but not by much.

I started at 0 and then went to 1/8 tiller. 1/16th??? compared to an 1/8 or 2/8's - could it make that much of a diff?

Bowmania
 

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Got me stumped too if you been through all that. Just out of curiosity, what draw length, pounds OTF, spine, length, and point weight were you using during all this tiller testing?
 

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Are you shooting split or 3under?
I'm no help with 3under. So disregard if 3under

Split, mind you I'm an odd duck so take this with a grain of salt.
Set tiller to even, double nock points set at 1/2" high, this usually gets my bare shaft impact low, very low, start working nock points down 2 twists, shoot bare/fletched, keep doing this till bare shaft impacts close to fletch, then half twists or 1/4 twists till I get results I'm looking for.

Now what are you doing with your index finger? Is it wrapped around the string with a death grip? Or light curl around the string? Or almost straight index finger?

If you are getting bare shaft up and down during flight with your nock height set, can be a spine issue, normally compound issue due to their paradox is vertical instead of horizontal.

Like I said I'm an odd duck.

Chad
 

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CCH,

Swapped out higher wrist to no grip. Bowmania
When you change tiller and then change nock position to compensate, you've effectively just changed the pressure point on the grip.
You took the grip off, which would move the pressure point up, forward, and changed whatever amount of heel pressure you were applying.
I'd put the grip I was used to back on before I pulled out any more hair.
 

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I've always been under the impression that tiller wasn't that important a value, that as long as it wasn't negative or overly positive it would just result in a slightly different nocking point during the tuning phase.

I know you have been dealing with this issue for a while now and are getting frustrated. Can you quantify a little clearer exactly what your arrows are doing? You say nock high but the spine is good (left/right), but I'm not sure how bad is the nock high? Sorry if I missed it somewhere.

My question for you: from a distance of 25 yards (or as far back as you can go), shooting two or three bare shafts and two or three fletched shafts, what is the vertical displacement between the two groups (I'm assuming the bare are lower, want to know by how many inches)?

Another more subjective question: If you are shooting fletched shafts, just normal practice, how is the arrow flight? Any up/down porpoising or do they look like they are flying true?
 

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CCH, All my shooting was done with 2 nocking points. I have thought of nocking points and they maybe a LITTLE on the tight side. As you can see from my original post I've tried even and 1/8 tiller. These are high performance limbs, but this is a nocking point, Up and Down issue not left or right.

Olddog, swapped out the limbs and tiller is the same. Swapped out higher wrist to no grip.

Jim, It was a bare shaft bullet hole. Spig Revolution and BlackMax limbs shot from a Viper suggested 15 feet. I do my final broadhead verification at 12 feet and 12 yards. Funny I tuned that bow with 4 shots - two bare shafts and 2 fletched. One point weight change.

Aroadik, My fingers are pretty valuable to me. I have I think 350 in that Spig setup. I suspect my problem might be 1000 limbs on a 200 dollar riser???

Bowmania
Bow, can you tell us what your setup is? Pounds,draw length and arrow spine.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
cch, I can tell you spine, but it's not a spine issue. 40 pounds at 29 inches and the arrow is a 0.500 32 inches long with 200 up front. All bare shaft are kicking up and down and all rips in paper are up and down.

Coodstar, you make an interesting point. You say a put the NP a 1/2 inch above. But above what??? 1/2 inch above the bottom, middle or top of an arrow nocked exactly perpendicular to the string. It doesn't really matter to me, because in the close to 50 times I started I always started 1/2 to 7/8's above the top of the // nocked arrow and worked down to the nock.

Easykeeper, I never thought tiller was very important either, but I'm grasping for straws. Like I've done everything except try another riser. I said try, because the next one didn't get here yet.

When it comes to impacts, John Wert told me to shoot at 15. So I move up from 22. When I was done I had 3 shots where the bare shaft hit a fletched. BUT the nock kick on a bare shaft was still up. To me I should have been able to move the NP one or two serving raps up or down and be done???????????????? NOPE. I say NP, but mean one nocking point up and one down.

Friggin' strange. I hope I learn something from this. I promise if I do so will you.

Bowmania
 

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Have you shot fletched arrows yet for group? How about broadheads? I never bother with paper tuning. I get my bare shaft flying down the line with a nock high impact. I then shoot fletched arrows to see if I am grouping and then go to broadheads and if they are good and group well at 50yds I am happy.
 

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cch, I can tell you spine, but it's not a spine issue. 40 pounds at 29 inches and the arrow is a 0.500 32 inches long with 200 up front. All bare shaft are kicking up and down and all rips in paper are up and down.

Coodstar, you make an interesting point. You say a put the NP a 1/2 inch above. But above what??? 1/2 inch above the bottom, middle or top of an arrow nocked exactly perpendicular to the string. It doesn't really matter to me, because in the close to 50 times I started I always started 1/2 to 7/8's above the top of the // nocked arrow and worked down to the nock.

Easykeeper, I never thought tiller was very important either, but I'm grasping for straws. Like I've done everything except try another riser. I said try, because the next one didn't get here yet.

When it comes to impacts, John Wert told me to shoot at 15. So I move up from 22. When I was done I had 3 shots where the bare shaft hit a fletched. BUT the nock kick on a bare shaft was still up. To me I should have been able to move the NP one or two serving raps up or down and be done???????????????? NOPE. I say NP, but mean one nocking point up and one down.

Friggin' strange. I hope I learn something from this. I promise if I do so will you.

Bowmania
With all due respect to John Wert I'd consider 15 yards as purely a starting point, real tuning starts at 20 yards and improves as you get back to 25-30. If you keep tweaking to keep your bare shafts and fletched grouping together as you move back the nock kickout will basically take care of itself. If it didn't, the bare shafts wouldn't be grouping with the fletched.

If you get bare and fletched grouping together at 25-30 yards I wouldn't be too concerned with a slight nock high kick out of the bare shafts.

In my opinion a slightly nock high (bare shafts group slightly low) condition is not all bad. It seems to produce a very forgiving setup for me and has no effect on broadhead flight. I'll emphasize slightly, barely there but noticeable at 25-30 yards.

Make sure you are shooting multiple bare and fletched shafts, two or three of each. I've found out the hard way that bare shafts can be inaccurate in themselves, usually a turn of the nock or replacing the nock will take care of it. If you are only shooting one bare shaft, how would you know that it's the problem and not your setup?

You didn't say how your fletched arrow flight is, in general. Does the bow shoot where you aim and group well? You can drive yourself crazy with tuning, there comes a time where it's not a bad idea to just put the tuning away for a while.

In my opinion, very often close is truly close enough.
 
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