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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Still trying to understand it. I apologise if this is a repeat, it probably is but it's new to me. Measured my bow yesterday after some insightful comments on another thread by a couple of very knowledgeable people. My bottom limb is 35" from string nock groove to Berger button. My top limb is 31". So if I have a two inch crawl with a split- finger release my bottom limb will be held at 33", and my top limb at 33". So my bow, if set set zero tiller will finally be balanced exactly. So that crawl could be my optimum one for tuning the bow? Except that I shoot 3under so I have to go slightly positive? But then of course the blooming arrow is two inches higher than my perfect point of balance, as is the Berger button. So to nullify this and get back to balance, do I remove the positive tiller, to get it back to zero, or do I go negative? It seems to me that there must be a mathematical/ geometrical optimum for this theoretical point of balance? Which would be good to know as a fixed point from which I could expect things to alter as I moved up or down the string? Or not?
 

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I was Gapping 3 under before and not been Stringwalking that long (Dec) but I just set the limbs to even tiller with higher than normal nock point, the positive/negative tiller as I understand it is more about personal feel for the bow shot reaction.

I started with even tiller and when I felt I got reasonable level with the Stringwalking I experimented with tiller to see what I liked best, the 26" riser I have has a very neutral after shot reaction and works very well with even Tiller.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I was Gapping 3 under before and not been Stringwalking that long (Dec) but I just set the limbs to even tiller with higher than normal nock point, the positive/negative tiller as I understand it is more about personal feel for the bow shot reaction.

I started with even tiller and when I felt I got reasonable level with the Stringwalking I experimented with tiller to see what I liked best, the 26" riser I have has a very neutral after shot reaction and works very well with even Tiller.
Thanks Steve, the reason I ask is because of conflicting info. I have Holger on one hand recommending positive tiller, and Bluejaeger the same except when his form is off, when he recommends negative as more neutral. Sometimes I am shooting really well, then I descend into mediocrity on another day. So I figure if I can get my head around the correct formula, I can have confidence in my choice and stick with it. I hope? Cheers
 

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Blakey

Your over thinking it (we all tend to do that) - set your tiller to zero - bare shaft tune at 25 yards and go shoot.

After you have shot a ton and are confident in the shot then revisit your tune - I keep playing and keep coming back to zero tiller - that's what works for me and my riser/limb combo.

Guys on the net can point you in the right direction (at least on tradtalk) but eventually it just comes down to shooting a ton of arrows and figuring what works for you.

Have fun string-walking is truly a blast.


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Team Montana - we are coming for your quarters ;-)
 

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The Stringwalkers' Trilogy is good reading about bow setup. It is based on compounds, but is still relevant. However, I'll save you the read and let you know that it comes down to what works best for you. Of the three setups talked about, one is positive tiller, one is negative, and one is even.

Have fun,

Tim
 

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Barefaced tightropewalker
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FWIW, I start at zero tiller and only mess with it if I need to do so to keep NH somewhere reasonable.
 
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j-san = Jason
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I've been doing a bit of string walking over the winter with a 64" ILF recurve and have tiller set to zero. Been working pretty well for me and I get decent arrow flight. More than anything, inconsistencies in my release have more to do with wonky arrow flight than bow settings.
 

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Barebow recurve
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Tiller zero works for me. My own opinion is that tiller only adjusts the vertical angle of the riser at full draw - the pitch of the bow, if you will. So, it may depend on how the grip fits your hand, if you want to move the nock point, or if you have a clearance issue. I had a riser once where my vanes were brushing the shelf - I fixed that with tiller, but later moved to a different riser that does not do that.
 

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Barefaced tightropewalker
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Tiller also influences the regularity of your crawl intervals.
It influences the effects top and bottom during the draw thus the feel of the draw (rotation in hand, or not).
It influences the shot reaction and noise.
 

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Blakey, you're looking for a mathematical/ geometrical formula, don't you know that string walking is a mystical black art??;):D
 

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Im at 1/8 bigger on top.. I started with even then i changed arrows and needed to make a small nock height change.. I was being lazy(Tied nocks) so i just changed the tiller a bit and bingo.. I found that my groups were tighter and i liked the way the bow sat in my hand. I also enjoy the way the bow jumps out of my hand.. So i just left it at 1/8 bigger on top... Plus i had a conversation with Ben which confirmed what i was feeling..

My crawls didnt change much between the two
 

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Barefaced tightropewalker
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Could you expand on that Greysides?

I find that my crawl intervals are far from even. My only thought was that this is caused by some non-linearity in the vertical "bounce" of the arrow off the rest......

Ado
As you go up and down the string you pull more from one limb and less from the other. Using tiller you may be able to find a setting that evens out the intervals.

Here's some info that Beleg2 found:

Notes for tuning tiller.

Vincenzo Scaramuzza

ARCIERI, May - June 2005, p. 24

Tiller is the difference in preload between the upper and lower bow limbs, as measured from
where the limbs are inserted into the riser, to the string at 90º.
Sometimes distance references on the tab turn out to be substantially different from what
would be expected. Some time ago I came across this situation in a tuning session with some of
my pupils. An archer was complaining because the finger position for 50 meters was exactly
under the nock (3under), for 45 meters he had go two "stitches" down but for 40m he only had
to go down one more "stitch". This unusual situation might lead you to believe the path of the
arrow was not proportionally related to the position of the hand on the string. After a series of
tests, we noticed that one of the limbs was not bending properly. Looking for a solution for this
imbalance we managed to develop an adjustment method that has given ideal results and that,
from a functional and operational point of view, has been precise and trustworthy.

Draw length determination.
First draw length is measured, 3under, for the 45-50 meters crawl using a marked arrow.
Note the information and then measure the draw length corresponding to the 5-10 meter crawl.
We need to use a device that can simulate the grip of the archer's fingers on the string, and we
affix it to a weighing scale to determine the draw weight at both draw lengths and crawls (this
is the best system to establish the exact force at draw). If both values are equal, no further
adjustment is necessary. If not, we will have to adjust the preload of the limbs to obtain the
same weight at both positions.
It is assumed that this process gives the bow consistency in the path and the reaction of the
arrow to the push of the bow.
Also, it is clear that it will be only necessary to do this operation when there are the anomalies
described initially.

The norm.
Under normal conditions, in my opinion, tuning for optimum tiller for both barebow and the
Olympic bow should start from a setting of neutrality (zero tiller). At this starting point we set
and record the nocking point, so we can note any change.
Then increase the loading on the lower limb, one turn at a time, resetting nocking point each
time with the bare shaft test. It's not advisable to set a tiller with over 3/8" of difference
between the limbs. If during the course of these adjustments you notice that the nocking point
goes lower than the one established with zero tiller, it means you are going in the right
direction. If not, you should return to the zero tiller and repeat the tests while adjusting the top
limb (an unusual situation).

In conclusion
Increasing the preload difference between two limbs can be done in two different ways:
increasing the power of the lower limb, or reducing the power of the top limb (the other
method that can be used when necessary).
Which option we use depends on the arrows stiffness.
For example, if we have a soft arrow and must increase the tiller, you will need to
loosen/unload the top limb.
A stiff rest, string-walking crawls that are too low, the point of pressure on the grip and heavy,
slow aluminium arrows are all factors that emphasize the potential differences and explain the
use of a higher nocking point in a barebow when compared with an Olympic recurve or
Compound. The position of the anchor on the face has its own obvious importance, and I've
already discussed that topic in a previous article. The method for the determination of the ideal
tiller of your bow that I have just described, presents a system, probably slightly empirical but
effective and economical, that ensures that our limbs push the arrow in a balanced way.
 

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If shooting from a high 3D/hunting anchor with a fast flat arrow, the tuning is much less complicated. In fact 3D/hunting tuning is easy from a middle finger anchor. The crawls are modest. At 8 gpp an arrow doing 190+ sure makes judging distance easier.
 

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Not to high jack this thread, but is it safe to string walk my 60" Pinnacle II, or could it hurt the bow?
I wonder if you got alot of noise and vibration that caused you to think it was not healthy for the bow? My first bow, non ILF was built with bottom less app 1/4. Shoots great split finger. Quiet, but that same bow three under is very loud and has bad hand shock. But since you have an ILF riser, you should be able to adjust, and no it will not hurt it.
 

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I have been playing with different strings, limbs etc. But today is tourney day so yesterday I figured I'd better go back to original, check my gaps, get ready for the shoot. The bow was not shooting as well as before. I checked the brace and the tiller. But I could still feel something different on the shot. I carefully checked my tiller again and could see a small difference, maybe 1/16. I corrected it, barely a 1/4 turn, and it is shooting good now. I say this because I could feel it. I'm surprised that I could feel it. I think that each bow has a sweet spot relative to to shooting style, not always even tiller.
 
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