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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I'm in the process of fine tuning my CXLs and I'm finding a slightly stiff slightly low bare shaft group is giving me the best results.

In the past I've always tuned for slightly weak bare shafts. But after reading a thread by John Megara (limb walker) I thought I'd try this and I sure am liking it. It seems like guys tuning for broad heads tune weak but target guys tune stiff.

Why is this??

Matt
 

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When you say slightly stiff, how much? A picture if you could would be very helpful. I'm in the process of looking for new compound barebow arrows. So I might give this a try.

Thanks

Tim
 

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Matt, once again I can't tell you why but I k ow this..


A stiff arrow is all I can shoot..from anyhow..


3-D setup CXL 250 with 100 grain point 42#
Target set LineJammers and 200 upfront .316 spine!! 37#
Hunting setup heritage 250 125 head 47#


A stiff arrow will always group better than a weak arrow...I believe Larry Wise or Bernie Pellerite said this....I have certainly foundmthis to be true.


Dewayne
 

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I'm a stiff spine shooter as well Matt. I shoot the same arrows as Dewayne(cxl 250 full length) with 145gr points but 38-40lbs at 29.75". I used to worry when "Everybody" claimed my arrows were too stiff for my weight, now I just giggle inside as i know what works for "Me"! Strangely though, my setup does not show stiff, bare shafts are right in line left/right with fletched, but I do have my bare shaft hitting lower. I've never thought I had a very good release, but a post on AT claimed the better the release, the stiffer spine you can shoot. Again, whatever, I shoot what works for me.
 

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Now is this true for off the shelf too or just rests and plungers bud.....those stiff arrows - at what distance are your tests done to get the 4" seperations?

I too have always wondered why with bare shafting we want weak (yeah we know they will stiffen up a bit when we add the fletching and that made sense) but what we didn't know was how much it would stiffen it up.

Thats why I would bare shaft to get them close and then paper tune like Rod to get a perfect hole...well as perfect as i could get.

Of course I dont think I have EVER had a PERFECT TUNE arrow in my life.....just ones I could live with.

All I ever heard was " a weaker spine is MORE FORGIVING".....so I went with that.

Jer

thanks jer
 

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Well, that is what happens when your short shuck your shot.

I once received a gift of 3 dozen shafts that were stiffer and shorter than I was using, and I really wanted to make them work. With heavy points I found they flew well with my best form and long, lively release. Anything less went left and low.

That proved to be very good for my form development. And as a draw check. It really reduced my incidence of wimpy shots.

I eventually built them into heavy hunting arrows and put them aside. They are awaiting a lottery win, so I can take them to Alaska and Africa.

But they served me well in the development of my target form. - lbg
 

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Once I finally got my shooting to the point where I could actually notice a difference between tunes, I found pretty much the same works best for me Matt. Slightly stiff shows better consistency for me than slightly weak or even right with the fletched arrows.
 

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Matt, you describe what you're getting with the bareshaft tuning, and your basic question is WHY are you getting "better results". Well, what exactly do you MEAN by "better results"? Once fletched they shoot line for a longer distance? They hit where you look? They show better penetration? You're shooting higher scores? All of the above?

I suspect that what is going on is that you are perceiving better results actually due to your head position, which affects perceived sight picture, and string blur placement and alignment within that sight picture. Spine affects left/right and those elements I listed above also affect left/right.

Try shooting these stupid woodies some day. If you can get them to just simply fly straight, you can "tune" them left/right just by playing with the things I mentioned. Just like moving a sight carriage left and right. The same may be going on with you, and it just happens to be what works for you.
 

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Interesting. When I am shooting carbons I am noticing pretty much the same thing. I get good fletched flight but the bareshaft might be stiff. I get terrible flight if my bareshaft ends up too weak.

Question: Would a stiffer arrow work better with a more dynamic release? Do you guys really pull through on the release? I would think a stiffer arrow would be better in this case.

Also, I wonder if a long draw has something to do with it. Im drawing close to 30" myself.
 

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Now is this true for off the shelf too or just rests and plungers bud.....those stiff arrows - at what distance are your tests done to get the 4" seperations?

I too have always wondered why with bare shafting we want weak (yeah we know they will stiffen up a bit when we add the fletching and that made sense) but what we didn't know was how much it would stiffen it up.

Thats why I would bare shaft to get them close and then paper tune like Rod to get a perfect hole...well as perfect as i could get.

Of course I dont think I have EVER had a PERFECT TUNE arrow in my life.....just ones I could live with.

All I ever heard was " a weaker spine is MORE FORGIVING".....so I went with that.

Jer

thanks jer
Jer in my case it's off the shelf. My hunting bow is a Hoyt buff and I use .400 spine for 45lbs. Of course my Oly rig is shooting 550 carbon ones at 36 pounds and others scratch their head as they're shooting 800s for similar poundage bows. Again with all my Bows though I tune to shoot where I'm looking bare shaft, not stiff like Matt.
 
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I always thought you wanted to be slightly stiff for shooting broadheads, but I have no idea why. The arrows I'm shooting now are slightly stiff but I can't say it makes a difference (other than in my mind).
 

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I always tune so my bare shafts group left/right with my fletched, but have come to like the bare shafts impacting slightly lower than fletched; seems a bit more forgiving of slight inconsistencies in finger pressure.

I've never like a shaft that's weak, if I have to I accept slightly stiff over weak. I shoot off the shelf and usually tune with point weight, +/- 25 grains is usually close enough but I've found with broadheads that weak is never good, at least for me.

I'm shooting 31" .340s out of my recurves that range from 50#@29" to 58#@29", point weight determined by the bow.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Matt, you describe what you're getting with the bareshaft tuning, and your basic question is WHY are you getting "better results". Well, what exactly do you MEAN by "better results"? Once fletched they shoot line for a longer distance? They hit where you look? They show better penetration? You're shooting higher scores? All of the above?

I suspect that what is going on is that you are perceiving better results actually due to your head position, which affects perceived sight picture, and string blur placement and alignment within that sight picture. Spine affects left/right and those elements I listed above also affect left/right.

Try shooting these stupid woodies some day. If you can get them to just simply fly straight, you can "tune" them left/right just by playing with the things I mentioned. Just like moving a sight carriage left and right. The same may be going on with you, and it just happens to be what works for you.
Paul

I really don't think much has changed in my sight picture/form. I tune by getting a rough tune shooting it for a week or two then coming back for a fine tune.

Tuned these up and was still impacting to the right so I brought my center shot in a 1/4 turn. This centered my fletched shafts up at 3D distances and I was happy with how it was grouping - so I called it good.

This weekend a shot a fairly hard 3D course with shots out to 80 yards and was frankly surprised with how well I scored. So for giggles I bare shafted my set up last night to see where I was at.

My normal tune at 25 yards is 3-4 inches low and 3-4 inches weak. This set up is 3-4 inches low and 3-4 inches stiff. Same 500 spine but a larger diameter and less tip weight.

I'll keep playing - group tuning at my different crawls is next.
 

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Matt, that's what I'm getting at. You go along always tuning to get bare and fletched to group directly together. Then one day you wind up with a tune with a somewhat stiffer than normal set up, and it produces better than normal results. Why? It shoots your visually perceived line better. You haven't changed anything with your head position and how your sight picture looks or where your string blur is anything. The somewhat stiff set up would have been "better" for you all along.

The bareshaft low is probably coming about as a function of nock height. At longer distances the bare should come out higher than fletched due to drag on the fletched if nothing else. At a guess the high nock point yielding the low bare shaft that produces better results is probably because you're getting the nock end of the arrow up high enough to get out of fletching interference.

Just some guesses as to the "why" of the matter.
 

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To answer your question, what Fieldnfeathers said stiffer spine recovers quicker. For the longest time I had problems tuning my bare shafts to hit where I was looking. If my shafts hit where I was looking the shaft was low and stiff when bare testing. Since I started to get a perfect flying bare shaft first then move the noc to hit where I am looking the end results are a better flying arrow.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
To answer your question, what Fieldnfeathers said stiffer spine recovers quicker. For the longest time I had problems tuning my bare shafts to hit where I was looking. If my shafts hit where I was looking the shaft was low and stiff when bare testing. Since I started to get a perfect flying bare shaft first then move the noc to hit where I am looking the end results are a better flying arrow.
You would think that a perfectly straight flying bareshaft would give me the best results. I'm using 2 inch feathers so it's an additional 5 grains to the nock end - I tape my bare shafts to add this weight so the tune really shouldn't change when fletched.

Matt
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Matt, that's what I'm getting at. You go along always tuning to get bare and fletched to group directly together. Then one day you wind up with a tune with a somewhat stiffer than normal set up, and it produces better than normal results. Why? It shoots your visually perceived line better. You haven't changed anything with your head position and how your sight picture looks or where your string blur is anything. The somewhat stiff set up would have been "better" for you all along.

The bareshaft low is probably coming about as a function of nock height. At longer distances the bare should come out higher than fletched due to drag on the fletched if nothing else. At a guess the high nock point yielding the low bare shaft that produces better results is probably because you're getting the nock end of the arrow up high enough to get out of fletching interference.

Just some guesses as to the "why" of the matter.
Makes as much sense as anything - tune has always fascinated me. I'm more than a little anal and OCD about it - if for no other reason than it gives me confidence.

But, you take 5 top shooters all shooting similar poundage and set ups and you will end up with 5 pretty different tunes. Like wise you can have 5 guys shoot a 10 on a unknown distance target and when asked you will get 5 different answers for exactly how far the target is.

Matt
 
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