Horace A. Ford has written everything you need to read on the topic.

 

Welcome to Trad Talk. - John

 

The 2 books I bought and read when I started were "Become The Arrow" by Byron Ferguson and Advanced Instinctive Shooting by Fred Asbell.

... my advice is don't bother with either of these books

Unless you want to buy into the mystique of "instinctive" shooting. Which I did at the beginning, but later realised it's not for me.

For practical purposes of hitting what you aim at, consistently and without tearing your hair out - start with an aiming system and progress from there. There is so much great material on YouTube.

 

I did pick up this book - it is fascinating and maybe what you're looking for:

The Art of Shooting A Short Reflexed Bow With A Thumb Ring by Adam Swoboda

http://www.thumbringarchery.org/

It's from Poland, so shipping should be inexpensive.

I've just started reading it... it's modern text, very professionally done and well written.

 

Welcome !

Here’s a start . . .

regards

John

 

. . . and this . . .

A Simple Shooting Protocol :
"We present a simple shooting protocol (簡易演射步驟; jianyi yanshe buzhou) based on Gao Ying's Ming military archery form. Its purpose is to develop conditioning, ..."

- Courtesy of Justin Ma

(Shi) - Start

Turn to target and establish stance . . .

- keep hands at waist, bow tucked under arm
- face the target for the entire end
- keep shooting stance for the entire end

(Da) - Nock

Load arrow without losing sight of target . . .

- direct eyes to the target (do not look at hands)
- nock swiftly (for advanced) ; nock slowly (for beginners)
- use bow hand index/middle fingers to hold arrow
- use draw hand to grasp to string
- allow movement to come to completion before proceeding

(Shen) - Estimation

Prepare for the shot physically and mentally . . .

- raise bow slightly
- finalize bow hand grip (place fingers under the arrow)
- settle down shoulder blades (no hunching)
- estimate position of target with your vision
- allow movement to come to completion before proceeding

(Gou) - Full Draw

Settle down shoulder blades for a brisk/efficient draw . . .

- settle down shoulder blades before pull begins
- do not hunch the shoulders
- use pushdown rowing motion of elbows for efficiency
- place bow hand in final aiming position

(Yun) - Balance

Increase back effort, decrease arm effort . . .

- reduce tension in wrists and hands
- revolve and retract shoulder blades together
- keep shoulder blades settle down

(Qing) - Lightness

Expand draw length linearly towards release . . .

- expand = move back hand away from front hand steadily & continuously
- do not "hold still"
- expand more slowly to improve physically conditioning
- release only upon reaching full draw length
- follow through naturally : same expansion before/during/after release

(Zhu) - Focus

Keep eyes of the target . . .

- allow follow through to come to completion
- maintain emotional composure regardless of hit or miss
- reset hands at waist for next shot cycle
- remember to breath
- for remaining arrows, repeat sequence starting from (Da) - Nock

 

No holding, no anchor, release upon hitting full draw. That is almost sacrilege by many of today's accepted methods. There is a guy on youtube that I enjoy, Gary Chynne, who recommends the exact same shooting methods as described in your post. He's a fun guy who dresses like a viking and shoots primitive style longbows off the hand. He seems to do pretty well with it.

Ive practiced for a long time to do the exact opposite. I sometimes wonder if there is any 'one way' thats better than any other.

 

https://www.amazon.com/Shooting-Stickbow-Practical-Approach-Classical/dp/1602642443

Work on a good shot sequence, good repeatable form.

Don't get hung up on 'instinctive' (and, by extension, don't get dragged into the endless urine-flow contest which is the internet discussion thereof. ;-) )

 

Jay Kidwell has a book on instinctive shooting.

 

Silly question but why read about your natural born instincts?

Try the library next to the books on walking and running( flight response).

Sorry, no help here.

Check out Jeff Cavanaugh maybe he could help. He is impressive.

I'm amoung the ungifted aimers. We try to have a bit of repeatability in our approach and sometimes look like target archers (God forbid).

 

"Become The Arrow" by Byron and Advanced Instinctive Shooting by Fred Asbell.

Fergusons book "Become the Arrow" may or may not all that much but if your really set on "instinctive" shooting I guess its as good as any.

Asbells book "Advanced Instinctive Archery" is a freaking disaster - dont read that nonsense. He a good witter and a really good hunter and he largely created the modern mystique of "traditional archery." But what he describes about the way your mind works is just wrong and has been shown to be wrong.

Its literally impossible to not see the arrow. Trying to not see it will tie your mind in knots. And his whole book is based on that premise. Youll do much better learning to at least sort of aim and in time letting your subconscious take over.

 

"Become The Arrow" by Byron and Advanced Instinctive Shooting by Fred Asbell.

Fergusons book "Become the Arrow" may or may not all that much but if your really set on "instinctive" shooting I guess its as good as any.

Asbells book "Advanced Instinctive Archery" is a freaking disaster - dont read that nonsense. He a good witter and a really good hunter and he largely created the modern mystique of "traditional archery." But what he describes about the way your mind works is just wrong and has been shown to be wrong.

Its literally impossible to not see the arrow. Trying to not see it will tie your mind in knots. And his whole book is based on that premise. Youll do much better learning to at least sort of aim and in time letting your subconscious take over.

Really? A guy comes here asking for help and you're going to launch into a "instinctive is BS" tirade?

Been hearing this kind of bull for over 30 years. At what point can trad archers come to the realization that it's okay for us to have different methods. Take a deeeep breath. Repeat after me, It is ok for us to have different methods. It's ok for us to have different methods...

 

Go to https://www.archerylibrary.com/ click books, scroll down to Horace A Ford-- Archery, it's theory and practice, look first for the chapter on aiming and read that. Then, read whatever else he writes about that interests you and enjoy the writings of the Thompson's and Saxton Pope.

 

Read Fred's first book, "Instinctive Shooting". Made me wonder WHY anyone would try it.

I think he thinks that the only way to shoot without knowing the yardage is instinctive. He's wrong on that like so many other things. Does know how to give people target panic though. Greatest writer archery has.

Bowmania

 

Bowman7. I wish you welcome and hope the desire to shoot the bow remains with you always.

If you haven't realized it yet those of us that shoot instinctive do not have many friends on this site. This site is full of great people, great shots, and huge helpers. If you want to shoot instinctive, as I proudly do, take in all that is offered and sift out the sighting information. If at some point you decided you want to aim then this site is ready made for you. Really glad to see a new member and wish you a joyous ride.

 

big welcome to the forum

 

It's been mentioned, but without a repeatable form and consistent execution, it doesn't matter if you aim or "instinctive" - you're going to miss, especially as the range gets beyond 15 yards and the mental pressure is on.

And welcome to the forum!

 

Thanks everyone for the welcomes and info 😉

 

Here's a good place to start. This video is packed full of good explanations. There's no bias towards any specific method. A good place to gain an understanding of the pros and cons of different methods. The Push also has a podcast with literally hundreds of hours worth of discussion on traditional archery topics.

 

Nice, thanks, did not know of this channel yet, looks promising 🙂

 

Blue Ridge, you are correct. Unfortunately so is everyone else. We just answer questions the way we see fit, because we want 'the askers to get better'. I just happen to be writing a piece on instinctive archery. I'd be happy if you gave your opinion. And that's what mine is - opinion.

My Problem With Instinctive Shooting

To start, I don't like the idea of when you get good you can't hit anything at any distance. To add to that it takes too long to get good.

If you took two identical twins and taught one instinctive and the other gapping, we might be able to answer this question. In my opinion the gapper takes one shot and he knows what he did wrong. If he was high the gap was too big and low too small. The instinctive guy I'm not sure what he knows when he misses. I don't think he knows what he's doing wrong until he hits the target. Then can he hit the target on the next shot? He's been practicing missing without knowing what he did wrong. I don't think he can ever catch up to the gapper.

My biggest problem with instinctive shooting is, I believe, it lays down the seeds for target panic. I will admit it might not be the problem. The problem could be the swing draw, but they go hand and hand. I rarely run into anyone who gaps and has tp, it's probably 10 to 1. I have never run into a gapper taught by a coach that has tp. I can explain why the swing draw gives you TP, but we're discussing instinctive.

Here are my main points against instinctive shooting.

1.) Have you read Fred Asbel's book “Instinctive Shooting”? I have more than once. And then tried to spot read on what exactly it is. It's described in 3 or 4 spots and it's so convoluted that I can't figure why anyone would even try it. I think it's a tribute to what a great author he is. I can read a chapter, like chapter 3 “Why instinctive Shooting” and disagree with almost every sentence he wrote. I don't know why he would think that instinctive is the only way to shoot without knowing the distance.
2.) Let's go back to the twins. Both shooting the same arrow, bow, distance, only difference is instinctively and gapping. The gapper is thinking about trejectory and what he needs for a gap. The instinctive guy is thinking concentration/focus on the spot – draw and shoot. Does he think he has a laser? There has to be a little more to the equation. If they both have to hold in the same spot to hit the target did the instinctive guy learn that gap subconsciously? After thousands of arrows? So he took his brain out of the equation, so he could learn subconsciously what the gap guy knew after his first shot. I don't think they invented the wheel or the bow instinctively – THEY USED THEIR BRAIN. They may have built the Leaning Tower of Pisa instinctively. Maybe if they gapped it, it wouldn't be cockeyed.
3.) Sooooo, if they both have to hold the bow in the same place, did the instinctive guy get there subconsciously? I don't know how he could have got there any other way. For me that's a major problem, I mentioned with the instinctive shot and swing draw TP. Your subconscious can think of a hundred things at the same time. You conscious can only thing of one thing – the thing I want it to think of, simply because it's what I'm thinking of. Letting your subconscious have the run of the asylum, it just takes a time and a few misses to tell the self-image that not being able to get on target is what you want. This can happen for some in a year or 10 or in the case of the greatest shot I ever saw in person 30.
4.) I think it's pretty standard knowledge that it's tough to shoot distance instinctively. Think about gapper twin shooting at 50 yards. He has something to wrap his brain around. He misses on shot and just change the gap according to the direction missed. Simple statement. I can't make a simple statement for the instinctive guy – concentrate more? LOL. That's going to work. IF there's that glaring difference at 50 yards, who's to say that the same difference is there at 20 yards. If it took thousands of arrows for instinctive twin to learn 15 yards and gapper twin can do it in two – one miss and the next compensated for, how much better is the gapper going to be after a thousand arrows at 15? After all he's using his brain.

I'm really not done yet.

 

Blue Ridge, you are correct. Unfortunately so is everyone else. We just answer questions the way we see fit, because we want 'the askers to get better'. I just happen to be writing a piece on instinctive archery. I'd be happy if you gave your opinion. And that's what mine is - opinion.

My Problem With Instinctive Shooting

To start, I don't like the idea of when you get good you can't hit anything at any distance. To add to that it takes too long to get good.

If you took two identical twins and taught one instinctive and the other gapping, we might be able to answer this question. In my opinion the gapper takes one shot and he knows what he did wrong. If he was high the gap was too big and low too small. The instinctive guy I'm not sure what he knows when he misses. I don't think he knows what he's doing wrong until he hits the target. Then can he hit the target on the next shot? He's been practicing missing without knowing what he did wrong. I don't think he can ever catch up to the gapper.

My biggest problem with instinctive shooting is, I believe, it lays down the seeds for target panic. I will admit it might not be the problem. The problem could be the swing draw, but they go hand and hand. I rarely run into anyone who gaps and has tp, it's probably 10 to 1. I have never run into a gapper taught by a coach that has tp. I can explain why the swing draw gives you TP, but we're discussing instinctive.

Here are my main points against instinctive shooting.

1.) Have you read Fred Asbel's book "Instinctive Shooting"? I have more than once. And then tried to spot read on what exactly it is. It's described in 3 or 4 spots and it's so convoluted that I can't figure why anyone would even try it. I think it's a tribute to what a great author he is. I can read a chapter, like chapter 3 "Why instinctive Shooting" and disagree with almost every sentence he wrote. I don't know why he would think that instinctive is the only way to shoot without knowing the distance.
2.) Let's go back to the twins. Both shooting the same arrow, bow, distance, only difference is instinctively and gapping. The gapper is thinking about trejectory and what he needs for a gap. The instinctive guy is thinking concentration/focus on the spot - draw and shoot. Does he think he has a laser? There has to be a little more to the equation. If they both have to hold in the same spot to hit the target did the instinctive guy learn that gap subconsciously? After thousands of arrows? So he took his brain out of the equation, so he could learn subconsciously what the gap guy knew after his first shot. I don't think they invented the wheel or the bow instinctively - THEY USED THEIR BRAIN. They may have built the Leaning Tower of Pisa instinctively. Maybe if they gapped it, it wouldn't be cockeyed.
3.) Sooooo, if they both have to hold the bow in the same place, did the instinctive guy get there subconsciously? I don't know how he could have got there any other way. For me that's a major problem, I mentioned with the instinctive shot and swing draw TP. Your subconscious can think of a hundred things at the same time. You conscious can only thing of one thing - the thing I want it to think of, simply because it's what I'm thinking of. Letting your subconscious have the run of the asylum, it just takes a time and a few misses to tell the self-image that not being able to get on target is what you want. This can happen for some in a year or 10 or in the case of the greatest shot I ever saw in person 30.
4.) I think it's pretty standard knowledge that it's tough to shoot distance instinctively. Think about gapper twin shooting at 50 yards. He has something to wrap his brain around. He misses on shot and just change the gap according to the direction missed. Simple statement. I can't make a simple statement for the instinctive guy - concentrate more? LOL. That's going to work. IF there's that glaring difference at 50 yards, who's to say that the same difference is there at 20 yards. If it took thousands of arrows for instinctive twin to learn 15 yards and gapper twin can do it in two - one miss and the next compensated for, how much better is the gapper going to be after a thousand arrows at 15? After all he's using his brain.

I'm really not done yet.

If your twins ever get into a wing shooting competition(or any other non stationary target shooting competition) my money is on the dummy instinctive one 😉

 

Bowmania, an instinctive shooter learns a trajectory of the arrow through those repetitions. His brain learns where to position the bow hand in relation with the target to send the arrow on the correct path EVEN IF HE DOESN'T LOOK AT IT. A gapper learns where to put his bow hand in relation with the target based on the arrow path he studied earlier. In reality both are teaching the archer the same thing ( to send the arrow where he wants ) using different methods based on same common denominator (arrow path) and are valid systems just when you have a solid form/shooting sequence.
I agree with you that this "bore a hole" and miracle will happen is the most deceiving thing for a new shooter because there are no "instinctive" shooting coaches. "Instinctively I draw the bow and shoot" wrote by a guy in a newspaper became "instinctive shooting" without telling the full story: the guy who took the shot had archery training which is not just about an aiming system.

 

. . . ahem . . .

the "gap" between "instinctive" archery is a well travelled rut . . .

I here my take on subject :

Intuitive Aim -

1.) It's impossible to focus more than a single subject or Target . . .

2.) Switching from a multiple point of focus loses the entirely aiming point . . .

3.) That why I look "through to limbs of the bow" and also "through to shaft of the arrow & also the arrowhead " . . .

4.) I focus solely on the aiming point . . .

5.) All the rest is taken care of by the peripheral and situational awareness . . .


regards,

John

 

Hey guys, I'm new to this forum so first of all hi everyone, hope everyone's well and shooting straight 🙂. I'd like to ask if anyone could recommend some good reading material on instinctive archery? Ive been doing it for around 3 years just, but I think i've seen just about every video on YT on instinctive archery and have learned a boatload from it. However, I'm sure there are more great ideas in the books written, maybe you've read something great on the topic and would like to share? Thanks in advance ☺

I've shot instinctive, gap, string walked and Fixed crawl. THEY ALL WORK! (Gasp).

Unfortunately, many archers only believe their way works. Or at least, until they come across a better way (for them) and then they'll exclaim "my old way is BS!" (And you think, didn't you tell everyone that Way was the ONLY way for about 10 years?). Sad really.

Look dude, bottom line is, shooting a bow is like deciding how to fish, or hunt or deciding which woman is most beautiful. Completely subjective and based on your personality. Instinctive is fun, natural, but maybe limited in distance because your eyesight can't pick a small spot at 40 yards. (Of course most archers don't shoot at game at 40 yards either). Gap is a good all around method, blending some of the fun of instinctive with some of the cerebral distance calculation for consistency. String walking is like shooting with a sight, but the arrow point is the sight. Very accurate but you have to really tune your setup. Fixed crawl is abbreviated string walking which lends itself more to hunting. They all work.

P.S. - in some cases, instinctive and gap become the same thing! How cool is that!

 

Totally agree Blue Ridge. Dont know why you quoted me, but I totally agree 😄

 

Totally agree Blue Ridge. Dont know why you quoted me, but I totally agree 😄

I quoted you because you are the OP. I'd like to add, G Fred Asbell and B Ferguson's books are still good reads. Combine what they say with the guidance of Joel Turner, Tom Clum Sr. and "The Push" and you'll be ahead of where I was after 15 years of archery. A Thousand Campfires is good book also, but just hunting stories. Modern Traditional and Masters of the Barebow DVD's (Vol 1-5) are all good.

 

Ok, here it is:

All Archery is ' gap shooting '... Learn what gap is required for your bow and arrow combination to hit the mark at the known range. Once range and gap is known and practiced, you can automatically recognize the range and recall the gap thus, hitting the mark. You need to program your onboard computer to be able to recall the stored data.

 

Its actually impossible. You subconsciously see the arrow and use it as reference without trying unless you close your eyes.
If you simply dont consciously focus on it thats a different and much more reasonable approach.

But beyond that particular problem that I have with Asbel. My issue with you is that you said I ranted about "instinctive shooting." Many people can shoot fairly well without actually aiming and a few very well. I think most would do best to start with a some basic aiming, but I have no isse with 'instictive" shooting.

I just have a problem with Asbels quack neurology and resulting techniques.
The degree to which he helps an archer is the degree to which the archer is able to take some confidence from his writing while actually just being truly instinctive and ignoring his explanations.

 

Hey, why did the chicken cross the road? To get away from this dumb argument about instinctive archers seeing the arrow. Sheesh! Rather than start this old topic of semantics again, do us all a favor and search for the thousand previous discussions and shouting matches about this. Start on Leather Wall, the migrate over to here. It’ll take you 2 months to read them all.

 

Hey, why did the chicken cross the road? To get away from this dumb argument about instinctive archers seeing the arrow. Sheesh! Rather than start this old topic of semantics again, do us all a favor and search for the thousand previous discussions and shouting matches about this. Start on Leather Wall, the migrate over to here. It'll take you 2 months to read them all.

1 The thread is about books - I said why a particular writers books were bad. I think its relevant. If you dont like my opinion you can either disagree or shut up.
Whining that I have an opinion on a book in a thread about books - is stupid and inappropriate.

2 At least you stopped accusing me of ranting against instinctive shooters.