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markliep
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Question for you archery formophiles: have been practicing with push vs pull release as a primary focus after aiming & find I do better with the push...but my point on target drops - see pic with lower center group a push release & higher Rt group a pull release.

I would expect a DL increase with bow arm push but my focus is on shoulder extension & I'm wondering if dropping the shoulder causes this...is this the case or is there another cause I need to consider?

Thx for any input - M

 

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I have tried both. Alistair Whittingham, who does the Performance Archery videos, says you should pull against your fixed arm and not push. I am learning KSL. My coach tells me to extend on draw like I am trying to grab a glass of water that is two inches beyond reach. But there is no push on release. You see FITA folks drop their wrist after the shot. I asked one of our top up and coming juniors whether that was a push or a relaxation. His response, it takes too much energy to push. The push helps keep you aligned by keeping you body, arm, wrist and hand, moving down the target line. I do not do it now, but, I have had success in the past, and, who knows about the future? If it works, I will use it. I think the idea is not to use the push to get your arm extension. You need to do that when you draw, and, if you are already fully extended, there should not be much left to push.
 

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Exactly what is moving when you push forward. Just the bow hand bending forward at the wrist or with your whole bow arm? Are you really pushing directly toward the target or is it possible you are also pushing down some?

Another possibility is that you may be inadvertently shifting the pressure point of your bow hand and grip higher. This would cause low impact.

Nice yard.

Rasyad
 
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I have tried both. Alistair Whittingham, who does the Performance Archery videos, says you should pull against your fixed arm and not push. I am learning KSL. My coach tells me to extend on draw like I am trying to grab a glass of water that is two inches beyond reach. But there is no push on release. You see FITA folks drop their wrist after the shot. I asked one of our top up and coming juniors whether that was a push or a relaxation. His response, it takes too much energy to push. The push helps keep you aligned by keeping you body, arm, wrist and hand, moving down the target line. I do not do it now, but, I have had success in the past, and, who knows about the future? If it works, I will use it. I think the idea is not to use the push to get your arm extension. You need to do that when you draw, and, if you are already fully extended, there should not be much left to push.
I seem to remember you giving a tug of war analogy not long ago (if it wasn't you, I apologize in advance). I personally have found the tug of war analogy very helpful. That's because I've noticed that if I don't maintain a strong force on my bow hand, my drawing hand will pull it backward and weaken the shot.

My current thinking is that there is a force balance to be maintained between the drawing arm and the bow arm, which is that the bow arm pushes just enough to keep the effort slightly "forward" until release is triggered by full expansion. However, at at the moment of release the balance is to be neutral.
 

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markliep
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Rasyad - IME push from elbow or wrist torques shots to the Lt for me whereas if it comes from the shoulder with inhaling, basically a inhalation-induced chest expansion that moves bow arm forward, then consistency is better - my hand is loose with the thumb pointing towards the target/grip contact on thumb web - so my guess was/is that somehow the shoulders dropping on extension - am trying to see if this is fixable or if I have to live with it & factor it in - not a big deal at 20yds but might be more so at 70m - M
 

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How is your stance? If it's open and your twist at the waist then the push should be slight left. If your stance is closed then it will be down slightly. Well that's what I remember. It's kind of auto for me now.
DDD
 

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I tried the push and it worked awesome for me. However the new found accuracy wore off. I seem to be able to try new methods and see improvement, but it's short lived. Only thing I can figure is my focus goes toward the new method, instead of on the target. It's one of the reasons I'm leaning towards the thought that form is overrated. I see comments that until you care more about shot execution then about score, you will not progress. This seems to be true, and I feel I'm very close to it, but so far away at the same time.
 

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I seem to remember you giving a tug of war analogy not long ago (if it wasn't you, I apologize in advance). I personally have found the tug of war analogy very helpful. That's because I've noticed that if I don't maintain a strong force on my bow hand, my drawing hand will pull it backward and weaken the shot.

My current thinking is that there is a force balance to be maintained between the drawing arm and the bow arm, which is that the bow arm pushes just enough to keep the effort slightly "forward" until release is triggered by full expansion. However, at at the moment of release the balance is to be neutral.
Yes, that was me with the tug-a-war analogy. A year ago I practiced releasing my wrist like the Olympic shooters. My form was starting to come together and I was suddenly having real trouble controlling distance. My normal practice was at 70 meters with my FITA barebow. I would be on the target and then suddenly I would launch an arrow over. My misses used to be short, and not long, which led me to believe the long shots were the good ones. I think it might have been about getting the correct extension. I started to experiment with a push and it helped. Unfortunately, that was right before I crashed last year and had to stop competing. On the up side, it got me to set up a light bow and clicker and spend time blank baling and focusing on form. It also led to me having to improve my health and fitness. Funny, how a negative can sometimes turn into a huge positive.

I mentioned the extension of the bow arm in my post. I think the push compensate for a bow arm that is not fully extended. Also, there is a difference between what you can get away with at shorter distances compared to longer. You have to be able to reproduce the extension to get the same draw length. Who knows, you may find it easier using a push, or harder.
 

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I prefer a high wrist grip because it feels like I'm pushing without needing to think about it.
Where as the lower grip feels more like a slight collapse.
The two groups shown are pretty much the result I will see in my own shooting with the two different methods.
I see that if I over heel my grip I will always shoot high due to the torque induced.
My current bow has a medium grip that I have to think about to keep even pressure on, but the moment I don't think about it I have a tendency to put more pressure on the heel of the hand/grip and will usually shoot high as a result.
To me is seems like the high grip forces the push and the low grip forces a semi collapse.
I used to shoot longbow with a high grip and when asked about that as I often was I would reply that it simply felt more linear to me.
It's sort of like a pull against a push, but not having to think about the push because the tension of holding the high wrist does that for me.
Sometimes being self taught can be awful confusing.

John.
 

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markliep
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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Thx guys - DDD the stance might be something as I've used slightly closed to seat the bow arm shoulder on draw & that does shorten DL a bit - kenn we have the same pain...I'm progressing slowly to working on reproducing shot feel - unfortunately tho while feel & results on target of close up blank bale may be great once I take out the distance the form weakness in regard to ease of setting up the shot become obvious ... but if I wanted easier I'd be playing with my wheelie more - M
 

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I've just learned something (finally) that's been driving me crazy.

When I shoot at 20 yards or less, I can get pretty good groupings. But when I shoot at 30 yards or more, a couple of arrows (out of 6) always fly off in someway by a foot or two. On bad days all all 6 will be spread out around the target. It's been frustrating enough that I thought about selling my stuff a couple of days ago since no form adjustment or bow tuning I tried helped.

Anyway, last night and this morning I decided to lock my bow arm. No more pushing—bow arm has no role at all in drawing, expansion, or anything whatsoever to do with reaching the point of release other than to be rock steady. And wala, all flyers stopped instantly. I've shot a couple dozen sets without a single flyer and much tighter groups, so I know it was something unstable in my bow arm that was causing the problem.
 

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markliep
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
We all have our evil form demons so am glad that you've made progress on that front - IME a truly side on stance helps to solidify my bow arm & if I extend it to the tsrget arrows don't drop vs if I allow the bow to compress my shoulder they do ... form is a tough task master but I'm still willing - M
 

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IME a truly side on stance helps to solidify my bow arm
I would prefer a "truly side on stance" because I seem to pull easier/stronger, but I can't get around two problems. One is constantly hitting my nose and chin with the string. The other is that I can't aim straight on the target as well as when I face forward slightly and anchor high on my cheek bone so I can look down the arrow. If I could solve those problems I'd definitely choose the side stance.
 

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Les,

I shoot classic parallel stance and solved the problem by going to a lower anchor with the string on the tip of my nose. My DL grew 3/4" in the process. The low (Olympic style) anchor works great for sights and stringwalking. However, high anchors are needed for gapping and longbows.

Rasyad
 
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Les,

I shoot classic parallel stance and solved the problem by going to a lower anchor with the string on the tip of my nose. My DL grew 3/4" in the process. The low (Olympic style) anchor works great for sights and stringwalking. However, high anchors are needed for gapping and longbows.

Rasyad
For my BB style, I am trying to learn to "see" the shot rather than calculate through string walking, but I wonder if one can't learn to see from a lower anchor/side stance/string to the nose aim. I'm off to experiment!

Post experiment:

Nope, gap is too big to handle. I did manage to get a little more sideways though.
 

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First thought is that your grip is changing slightly and the changing pressure point on the grip is causing the high's and lows. You could exaggerate your grip and pressure point locations and see what it does in the field.
 

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markliep
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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Thx - think I've got it figured out - pushing the bow arm to target maintains vertical placement on target - if I keep the arm static (shoulder joint compressed) then the arrows drop - think its a function of DL - M.
 
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