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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
This was brought on another sight, was advised to bring it over here to get input from you guys, and gals here. The thread started about giving thanks to, and apologizing to the animals we kill, like the Native Americans did. Someone said something like, the Indians were pagans and he didn’t believe in that kind of stuff. Well I asked the question, how does someone that has never been introduced to Christ go about getting into heaven, and what makes our religion better then theirs. I was raised in the Pentecostal Church but kind of drifted away from the Church in my adult life, but still consider myself a Christen. I’m sure someone here can direct me in the right direction to find the answer.
 

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Free Range,

Like with all things there can only be one absolute truth. If there is any deviation from that truth, it is no longer truth, but a lie based on partial truth.

Does that make sense to you?

That is why we see so many different religions, yet so many simularities.

We have all seen God's glory within the heaven's and the earth, which is a perfect representation of who He is. We are all without excuse.

Just because a person is a Christian doesn't mean that they know everything there is to know about Jesus. It's a personal relationship. I still don't know my best friend completely or my daughter. It's an adventure. It's a learning and growing experience.

That being said, if a primitive person has never been exposed to the Word of Jesus because he lives in a remote part of the world, I don't necessarily believe he will be excluded from spending an eternity with God based on that alone. That will be between him and God...but if he hears the Word of Jesus and rejects it, I don't believe he will spending an eternity by God's side.

Ray ;)
 

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Free Range,

being the contentious SOB that I am, I like to put my response to questions like this as follows: if God does indeed have the characteristics that certain people attribute to Him, then I am probably smarter than God and certainly more loving!

Of course, the implication is that since I am obviously not smarter nor more loving than God, God must not have those attributes.

Look believing in God cannot possibly be necessary for making it to Heaven, not even if you have heard the word of Christ and still don't believe (sorry to disagree BW). Here is why: it is inconsistent with God's nature to be a deciever. And yet, God has made the world in such a way that otherwise perfectly good, perfectly reasonable and sincere people can fail to believe in Him. But if God required belief for admission to Heaven, then He would be a deciever. Hence, God cannot possibly require belief, as claimed.

I want to add that I am not simply trying to be contentious here. I have been struggling with a bunch of different issues for the last year or so and these are points which I have come to regard as really very important. So I am quite sincere and also apologize if I offend anyone for making them.
 

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greenghost,

No offense taken here. I generally don't take a person's opinion personally even if its directed personally towards me.

I hope you have a higher opinion of yourself than just an SOB ;) I know I do of you.

Who defines who is perfectly good, perfectly reasonable and perfectly sincere?

By what standards makes a person perfect?

Are you perfect?

Do you know anyone who is?

Who is better to judge a person...the Creator or the created?

If not one person you know of is perfect than that means there is an imperfection and that imperfection is sin.

God has made it very simple for all people. All we have to do is believe in Him, but some people have made it harder than what it needs to be. There is no favoritism concerning that issue. Everyone will be treated just and fairly.

If a person chooses to not believe in God, than why in the world would they want to spend an eternity with a being they don't believe exists?

God isn't decieving anyone by requiring us to make a choice.

True Love isn't forced it is chosen.

How can you love something you don't believe in?

Ray ;)
 

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Ray, I don't want to hijack Free Range's thread, so I am going to start another.
 

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Free Range glad you brought it over here. This will be a whole lot easier to discuss here than through the PM system on the LW.

Right now I have to finish a job to meet a deadline tomorrow but I will be back probably very late tonight to give my thoughts on this.

GG, As soon as I get back from my trip this weekend I will get back to the evolution thread.

Ray
 

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I have a strong opinion on this, and it tends not to be very popular. I don't think you even have to know who Christ was to be accepted by him when you die. My reasoning is simple. God is all things that are good. A person who lives a good life already knows Christ even if he doesn’t know his name, if you follow me. An evil person can profess to know Christ and even claim to be saved by him, but if his fruit is contrary to God, then God does not know him.

So in a nutshell, a Buddhist living in the Mountains of China could be known and accepted by God. A church going Christian preacher could be a stranger to God. It depends on you. God would not be a just God if he didn't accept somebody just because a Christian Missionary never made it up his mountain to tell him that there was a man named Christ who died for him.

Again, I know this is not a popular idea to some people. But life has taught me that good is good and evil is evil no matter how you label it. Anybody can say "I believe in Christ and I accept him as my savior". LIVING what Christ taught is what I think tells Jesus Christ "You are my Savior".

A Native American growing up a thousand years ago still had the ability to choose right from wrong. Sure they had pagan beliefs, but they were taught them generation after generation. I don't believe God, being a just God, would hold them accountable for something they couldn't have any clue was wrong. I believe God will judge them on their capacity for accountability, as he will Judge us all.
 

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There are many roads that lead to many places and there are also may roads that lead to only one place. The road that leads to God by Muhammad is not the same road that leads to God through Jesus. Just as the road described by Buddah leads a person in a different direction. There are descrepency in the different paths to cause someone to get lost.

Any deviation from the truth is no longer the truth.

Muslims and Buddists do not believe Jesus is the Son of God, therefore they reject Biblical teachings.

I partially agree with you Matt. Just because a person confesses he believes in Jesus doesn't necessarily mean he truly believes it. Only God truly knows a man's heart. There are many people who claim to be Christian who really aren't.

God didn't leave us here completely helpless and defenseless in reguards to who He is. I know as a parent I wouldn't do that with my kids and that is one of the reasons why we have the Bible.

Ray ;)
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Thanks guys for taking the time to respond. I’m sure someone has a scripture or two that might shed some light on this subject. This is my uneducated opinion on this, I believe that Christ walked this earth in many forms. I believe he did this to help the peoples he was reaching out to, to understand him and his message better. How could a Native American possibly comprehend the Christ from Bethlehem? Wouldn’t it make much more sense for him to come to them through a believe system that they already had? Anyhow that is my opinion, backed up by what little I know about religion from other cultures.
 

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Jesus can be seen here on earth in many forms, but there was only one form he took physically here on earth and that was in the form of one man and that one man was Jesus.

We can see Jesus working within people and we can sometimes see His image reflected within people.

There isn't anything scripturally that I could find to say otherwise.

Do you have anything scripturally to support your belief that Jesus walked the earth in many different forms?

In the beginning there was only one belief in only one God. There wasn't the diversity you see today. It wasn't until sin entered the world did the different variations begin to appear and it wasn't until God let us mature as human beings, as a child becomes an adult, did we create so many different views on who He is.

Jesus can come into our lives at any point and at anytime. He can come to us during good times and in our lowest times. He can come to us through a discussion or he can come to us through an experience. Jesus wants a relationship with us all. He is knocking at our door.

How can we have a relationship with a person we don't believe or realize truly exists?

Romans 1:20 - "For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."

Ray ;)
 

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BLACK WOLF said:
There are many roads that lead to many places and there are also may roads that lead to only one place. The road that leads to God by Muhammad is not the same road that leads to God through Jesus. Just as the road described by Buddah leads a person in a different direction. There are descrepency in the different paths to cause someone to get lost.

Any deviation from the truth is no longer the truth.

Muslims and Buddists do not believe Jesus is the Son of God, therefore they reject Biblical teachings.

Ray ;)
I agree, but I'm talking about God's fairness. Whether they beleive Jesus to be the Savior or not is not the point. Because he is. My point is that God, being just and fair, would not cast somebody from his presence because they never had the opportunity to know him. I'm not talking about the guys killing Christians, because they hate Christians. I'm talking about the guy who doesn't know what a Christian is because he's never had the opportunity to be taught by one.

Say I invite you over to my house. You, being the generous person you are, bring as a gift of nuts and cheese. Let's say I'm Lactose intolerant and allergic to nuts. Instead of telling you "Ray, I'm lactose intolerant and allergic. I can't eat them." I yell at you "Get the heck out of my house! What are you trying to do, kill me?!" Would that be fair, since you had no idea? I wouldn't do that to you, and I'm a sinner. Are you saying that God, being perfect, would?
 

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Matt,

According to Rom 1:20 there is no excuse for anyone to not know God to some level for who He truly is.

We all have the opportunity to know Him through His creation.

In other words and I will use part of your words to help make it clearer...God, being just and fair, will cast anybody from his presence because everyone has been given the opportunity to know him through His creation.

The part we agree with each other on is when a person never hears or is told about Jesus, and can only base his belief on God's creation.

The problem is when that person IS exposed to who Jesus is and they reject it and NEVER accept it, is when God will cast them from His presence.

The sad thing is...is that person chose it and God followed through with His promise.

Ray ;)
 

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Matt,

It would be like being told that you are lactose intolerant and not believing it and I still brought the cheese.

God knows our hearts and He knows everything that we have been exposed to. He's not going to reject someone, for not knowing every little detail about Him but He will reject those that choose not to believe in who He truly is.

Ray ;)
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Ray, no I don’t have any scripture from the bible to support my theory. I base it on the fact that many religions, including those of many Indian tribes are very similar to Christianity, without ever having been introduced to Jesus of Nazareth. I believe he was one person, just coming to different people in ways they would understand. I read somewhere that the Native Americans experienced a Messiah among them around the same time that Jesus arose from the dead. Again I like to take a common sense approach to what I believe, and it only makes sense that He would talk to different people in ways they would understand. It would be foolish to try to convince and an Indian that Jesus was killed on the cross by a bunch of Romans for their sins. I would imagine they would say something like, Jesus? Romans? What you talking about Willis? :eek:)
 

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Ray, I read the scripture. But I read it as, everybody has a sence of basic good and evil (which I agree), and we are accountable for those things.

However, I just read one of you posts I missed. You said: God knows our hearts and He knows everything that we have been exposed to. He's not going to reject someone, for not knowing every little detail about Him but He will reject those that choose not to believe in who He truly is.

I agree with that. What I'm saying is that somebody who is living a good life will know Christ when they finally meet him, and not reject him (no matter of the religion they were taught). And he will know them.

I don' t want to hijack this thread anymore. I see your point though.
 

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It's not my job to convince anyone of anything. One of my responsibilities is to spread the Word and it's up to the person I share it with to believe it or not.

Ray ;)
 

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Free Range said:
Ray, no I don't have any scripture from the bible to support my theory. I base it on the fact that many religions, including those of many Indian tribes are very similar to Christianity, without ever having been introduced to Jesus of Nazareth. I believe he was one person, just coming to different people in ways they would understand. I read somewhere that the Native Americans experienced a Messiah among them around the same time that Jesus arose from the dead.
Free Range,
Do you remember where you read that the Native Americans expierenced a Messiah? Was it from Mormons or an archelogical/ historical record? I'm Mormon, and what you posted there is the basses of our relgion. If you remember, I'd like to know where you got the info.
 

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Free Range,

You said - "I base it on the fact that many religions, including those of many Indian tribes are very similar to Christianity."

I agree and do you know why that is?

It's because there was onlu one belief in the begining and for a religion to even sound half way plausable there has to be some truth mixed in with it.

I love you guys and would like nothing more than to be able to convince you of what I believe to be true, but even if you disagree...I still love ya! ;)

Ray ;)
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Matt, I’m sorry but I don’t remember. I’m sure it wasn’t from any Mormon teachings, or books about Mormons, because I have never read anything from or about them. More then likely it was from some kind of Native American history book, I have read a bunch of books dealing with Native Americans and their religious beliefs.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Black Wolf, no need to convince me I already believe, just looking for answers to things that I have no answers for yet. Maybe I’m starting down the path back to my roots in the church.
 
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