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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I read an advertisement in the lastest issue of TBM for an all-traditional shoot. It said No Shooting Aids!.

What exactly does that mean?? I'm guessing it means no sights or releases... but what about arrow rests, finger/wrist slings, or stabilizers? Ya think those are not allowed as well?
 

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Wow that's really ambiguous. I would think it would mean no clickers, sights or riser marks to be used as sights but it would seem a "rule" like that could be morphed and turned to suit any situation they deem worthy.
 

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Geesh, what about a tab or glove? Or a shelf? Or a piece of leather on the shelf? Or feathers on the arrows? Or allowing them to be straight? What about armguards or nock points on the string?

I've found out the hard way at shoots that "unaided" can be pretty much whatever folks want it to be if they want to ban you from competing.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
oh and btw - it also says AWARDS ISSUED, so I guess they have their reasons for mentioning "no shooting aids". I guess it would have to be clarified if one was serious about competing. But if not competing for an AWARD, I wonder if one would not be allowed to shoot on the course?
 

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I think you and Scooter got it, Piney. Write a broad, ambiguous rule so you can disqualify any real competition for almost any reason. Hell, the technique's been used by political encumbants for a couple hundred years!
 

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Some (not all of course) of the off the shelf trad types think an elevated rest and plunger are shooting aids...along with slings, metal risers, vanes, etc. I ran into that mind set at one of the last 3D shoots I tried. Had a Warf at the time and they weren't going to let me shoot until I said I wouldn't turn in the card. One of the reasons 3D and I have parted ways.

Dave
 

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I would think it would mean no cliskers

Clisker? whats a clisker? A new draw check device made by Whisker Bisquit?

Hank :)
 

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No Shooting Aids

I've got a flyer here from a recent trad shoot and under the heading "Traditional Equipment Only" says "Safety First," then the usual laundry list of "no elevated rests, no string walking, no stabilizers, no mechanical releases, no sights." I wonder how such things fall under the caveat of safety, or if it was just poor editorial placement of a comment?

Here locally, as I was circulating my pretty explicit descriptions of equipment classes for comment to other members of our organizational board via the net. This was for our state and regional shoots. I got two comments that I didn't need to put all that info out, that when someone got to the registration tent and had a question about what was legal that an officer should be called to make the decision. Wouldn't you just love to drive from another state only to learn that a hassled officer decided you couldn't shoot with what you came with?
 

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The only way to overcome this stuff is to just keep showing up at shoots with the equipment you like to shoot.

I've been known to show up at shoots with several kinds of equipment, though. One club where I took first place by a wide margin passed rules preventing the use of elevated rests and carbon arrows by the time they held their next shoot a month later. They were, apparently crying like babies with messy diapers about me after the shoot. Fortunately, I had a recurve set up to shoot off the shelf with wooden arrows and I told the head of the Trad Klux Klan that ran to meet me at the door as soon as I entered that they won't save their coveted first place piece of plastic from the evil Papa Bull with those rules. I went to the jeep, switched bows and arrows and quivers and beat the field by a wide margin again with the wooden arrows. Not one guy with a stickbow said word to me the whole time I was at the club and instead of leaving after I was through like I often do, I waited for the trophy and drove off never to darken their doorstep again.

:cussing:
 

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Yea,
It's just a blanket excuse to keep out whoever doesn't pass their muster. As long as TBM supports this stuff, they aren't getting a penny of my money :2cents:
 

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Shooting Aids

Guys,

I think that all of you are misinterpreting the intent of the message.

Since I work just a stone's throw from Capital Hill, I understand these things. What they mean is that you can have one of your Aids hand you the arrow, hold an umbrella for you and answer your cell phone calls as well as string your bow and wipe your sweaty brow. But, your Aids cannot shoot for you!

Don
 

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Dan I think your right on there. A bow is a shooting aid and you should have to throw your arrow. He(( you shouldn't be able to use anything but your hands and teeth to be TRUELY TRADITIONAL!
 

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Good Grief!

What does the ad in TBM mean by "no shooting aids"? Why doesn't someone ask them??? Then people can, at least, complain about specifics rather than pointlessly ranting! I agree that trad shoot rules can be quirky. I usually have to shoot my longbow in recurve class because I'm using aluminum arrows. I have to shoot my ELB in modern longbow class (instead of "Selfbow") next to people shooting ACS-CX's because my ELB isn't made from a single stave. The rules are somewhat arbitrary, but I don't mind too much since I use scores to compare how I shoot against other people and I can just look at my ELB score against the "Selfbow" scores.

Shooting for score means rules. Period. Otherwise the score is meaningless. Don't like the distance you have to shoot? The number of arrows? The way the target is drawn? How much time you have to shoot? What kind of equipment you can use? Why not just ignore the rules????? You don't because you know, deep down in your brain, that you have to have rules. People just get all prissy when the rules don't favor themselves. I'm no different, but hopefully I'm honest about it.

Do people really think that equipment rules are silly? If they were, then we'd only have one unlimited class where anything goes. Scopes, shoulderstocks, bi-pods, gyroscopes, Hooter-shooter bench rests, crossbows... You get the picture... Everyone who complains about the rules does so for one reason: self interest.

We can disagree and argue over what the rules for a scored shoot should be but we can't reasonably argue that there shouldn't be rules and we should be least acknowledge that when we want rules that favor our own style they will also, as a consequence, put others at a disadvantage. Of course, that doesn't mean that I won't argue for rules I like :)
 

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So,, what is concidered the base line in which all bows are to be judged, to be concidered unaided? Go ahead and seperate different bows into classes. By the end of the day the scores from all of the different classes will tell the real story. While everyone is at it we need to take a picture of the style everyone shoots and put them in the same class as well. You know like if you don't cant you are in one class and if do cant you are in another depending on the equipment.....Blah, blah, blah.. :p :p :p
 

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Warbow, it's not that there are equipment rules. I see no problem whatsoever with equipment classes. But for cryin' out loud, they should at least do as well as the IBO does and SPELL OUT THE EQUIPMENT RULES. The only reason I've ever seen generic and amiguous rules like "no shooting aids" was so that they could be selectively applied. I consider sights to be shooting aids. Other guys consider something as trivial as an arrow rest to be a "shooting aid".

If there are equipment rules, then the equipment rules need to be spelled out specifically. If the intent is to hold a fair competition, then it's fair to be specific about what's being restricted and what's being permitted.

Mabe it was an honest oversight because the PBS doesn't know anything about how to hold and run a shoot. Who knows?
 

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PapaBull said:
But for cryin' out loud, they should at least do as well as the IBO does and SPELL OUT THE EQUIPMENT RULES.
Naturally, I agree with you. At the very least, a link to a website that spells out the rules in advance is necessary. I'm a big fan of clarity, simplicity and proper advance notice. "No shooting aids" is far more vague than, say, "no release aids" (which is still open to interpretation, especially since flight shooters can't use "mechanical release aids" but can use "flippers"!!)

I've run into problems at club shoots fairly often where only vague rules separate the division--and those at the whim of whomever happens to be at the registration desk.
 

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So, what is your point?

tuffshot said:
So,, what is concidered the base line in which all bows are to be judged, to be concidered unaided? Go ahead and seperate different bows into classes. By the end of the day the scores from all of the different classes will tell the real story. While everyone is at it we need to take a picture of the style everyone shoots and put them in the same class as well. You know like if you don't cant you are in one class and if do cant you are in another depending on the equipment.....Blah, blah, blah.. :p :p :p
I can't tell if you are for or against equipment classes? If you don't separate people into equipment classes, overall scores do not fairly represent the relative ability of the individual archers. Putting primitive class archers against unlimited class compound archers is like putting showroom stock cars against nitro burning drag racers. The results of the contest are simply not comparable.
 

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warbow said:
I've run into problems at club shoots fairly often where only vague rules separate the division--and those at the whim of whomever happens to be at the registration desk.
Exactly! And man, does that pi$$ me off. Especially when the rules get suddenly interpreted differently in order to keep you from shooting. "No Shooting Aids" is so ambiguous and vague as to virtually guarantee a big ugly mess for everyone with competitors fighting with each other and whoever the administrators of the shoot might be. And, as you mentioned, you have no idea what you can bring or if you should even bother going.
 
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