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Discussion Starter #1
Gentlefolk...though I'm making some good progress as far as control?...I've run into a dilemma here that's kind of confounding me and tonight?...I shot some vid of myself trying to see what's going on and maybe find a cure....well that was the wrong thing to do as my form looks a mess from the backside...got a freaking "S" in my neck and certain I'm doing about 1/2 dozen other things wrong but most of it?...is stemming from this...which is creating a huge bug in my head and my sequence.

"The Problem:"

I get to full draw/hard anchor...using the thumb/forefinger V'ing my jaw method...but then as I expand?...my freaking hand leaves hard contact with my jaw and then floats...which is why I developed this back and forth crap with the string arm...as each time I feel like it's floating but haven't released yet?...I creep back forward to "re-register" (so to speak)...here ya go...take a looksee but brace yourselves cause it's uuuugggGGGGaaaaaallleeeee...


any advice/suggestion would be appreciated and will be tried in the morning.

T.I.A. Bill.
 

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Hard to tell from the angle Jinks, but you might be leaning your head to the right to meet where your hand is, when your hand should be meeting your head. I lean in slightly to get my desired string blur, but ideally you want a straight line up through your body. Get the camera directly facing you and check your head alignment. Next I think this "expansion" term your chasing is not suppose to be more then about 1/8". Your draw arm appears to be moving much more then that. Are you using a "Joel" trigger, cause you should be if your not. Lastly your snatching the bow just prior to the shot. Don't open your hand like you do, then cheat the sling of its job. Curl 3 or 4 of your fingers under and relax that hand.
 
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Have you tried using your cheek bone as a reference? It does require a slight head-tilt to get the string-blur lined up correctly.
Advantage is that you can draw the string right into the front of the cheek bone which give a good front to back anchor, and the index under the cheek takes care of the vertical.
For me the C-mandible anchor puts a lot of tension in my hand unless I use a very low anchor, like Olympic low.

-Grant
 
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Hey Bill, it doesn't look that bad. I do see where you are pulling the elbow back and removing your hand from your anchor. The expansion should be more like your hand staying on anchor and your shoulder blade should pull in toward your spine causing your elbow to roll back. I'm wondering if it's just you getting used to the softer feel on the back end with the lighter draw weight, where as a heavier bow will kind of pull itself from your fingers.

As far as head movement goes I have the same problem. I try to hit anchor first, then tilt my head in the proper position to see down the arrow shaft. If I do the opposite, and pull my head to the string as I draw it throws me out of alignment.

Looking good, keep it up!
 

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I don't know about the form issues Jinks...but I like that white wrist strap....kinda Pat Boone-ish! :D
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Have you tried using your cheek bone as a reference? It does require a slight head-tilt to get the string-blur lined up correctly.
Advantage is that you can draw the string right into the front of the cheek bone which give a good front to back anchor, and the index under the cheek takes care of the vertical.
For me the C-mandible anchor puts a lot of tension in my hand unless I use a very low anchor, like Olympic low.

-Grant
Thanks Grant and I have to agree regarding the hand tension and it's been mentioned elsewhere before...where I'm actually torqueing the string over it as my string-hand just doesn't seem to want to get both "vertical & relaxed" with hooking the jaw...I've visited the cheekbone anchor before but it seemed it caused me to lose BT and not get nearly as stretched out as hooking the jaw...maybe I need to revisit that cheekbone and try harder...I'll give it another shot today.

Hey Bill, it doesn't look that bad. I do see where you are pulling the elbow back and removing your hand from your anchor. The expansion should be more like your hand staying on anchor and your shoulder blade should pull in toward your spine causing your elbow to roll back. I'm wondering if it's just you getting used to the softer feel on the back end with the lighter draw weight, where as a heavier bow will kind of pull itself from your fingers.

As far as head movement goes I have the same problem. I try to hit anchor first, then tilt my head in the proper position to see down the arrow shaft. If I do the opposite, and pull my head to the string as I draw it throws me out of alignment.

Looking good, keep it up!
Thanks UDS and yes...it seems the real culprit here is I'm losing BT and "rotational movement" which used to have my string-hand sweeping across the side of my face at release with my fingertips landing at the back of the base of my neck...I think I need to try an get back to that as well.

I don't know about the form issues Jinks...but I like that white wrist strap....kinda Pat Boone-ish! :D
Thanks but I don't...that white wrist sling is the only thing I dislike about this bow...makes me feel like a freaking fa...whoops...that isn't socially acceptable anymore is it...so lets just say I'm more of a Daniel Boone fan than a Pat Boone fan! :lol:
 

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LMBO! Believe me when I tell you Jinkster, I was trying to be politely sarcastic....
 

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Discussion Starter #8
LMBO! Believe me when I tell you Jinkster, I was trying to be politely sarcastic....
That's IT!...That DOES IT!

I was worried about the finish coming off of this 1/2 century old bow and there's not a doubt in my mind that that queer azz white wrist sling has been glued on there for every year of it...Bowjack bought two of these polars from a man and wife couple over 4 decades ago...Centershot got the husbands 32#er and guess who's I got? :lol:

So yes...that white wrist sling makes me feel like a biotch everytime I lash it on...so that dose it...and I don't give a damn if I wind up having to refinish the whole damn bow...that thing is coming off TODAY!....RIGHT NOW!

There...now I feel better...now where's my old ladies hair drier?
 

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Discussion Starter #9
longrifle...see what you made me do to this 1965 collector grade bear polar?...



happy now?.....



good...



cause so am I! :lol:



I feel like I just dropped a tab of Viagra! LOL!

Heated it slightly with a blow dryer...gently peeled it off....then used Goof-Off sparingly and carefully (especially around the factory ser#/# markings) on a new microfiber towel...then lemon pledge...I can still see a mark (or I should say "unmark") when I hold it in the light just right of where it was...but all it is is the area that's never seen any micro-scratches and glossier than the surrounding area's...dang...there goes my manhood again...now it's got a glossy spot! LOL!

Now I gotta figure out how to screw that glossy area up a little to match the rest...now...where'd I put my scotchbrite pads? LOL!
 

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Yes, ditch the wrist sling. Try a finger sling and then also make your best effort to use it. I think its possible that you are inducing all sorts of unwanted tensions during anchor and expansion by your brain anticipating the death grip, post release. You must try to allow the bow to fall from your hand and let the finger sling catch for you.

Have a contest with yourself at pointblank range. Make the entire goal just be not death gripping the bow. It will probably be difficult at first but removing the aiming element (or at least the desire to hit center) will help you work on your problem.

Try to familiarize yourself with the " barrel of the gun" concept as espoused in the nts system.

Slow everything down. You can still be fluid; just slow it down.

You're making a lot of improvements and being this critical is just going to help you advance more. Thanks for sharing.
 
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Gorgeous bow Jinks! I like it minus the white strap!
Just from observation, my first thought was your elbow seems high and I wonder if you are really using more shoulder than back. A couple of the releases are almost jerked off the string and your string arm comes back and down. Seems like an over exaggerated pull through release.
Might try a few shots with lower elbow, and really feel the hold coming from between the shoulder blades. And I agree with kenn that your expansion should actually be a smaller movement from the back and certainly not enough to pull your hand away from your face. I've Been watching some youtube videos of the fita shooters. It doesn't look like they move at all but they do ever so slightly as they expand through the clicker.
Don't know if that's is right or not but was just an observation. Most of all have fun and enjoy that bow!
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Yes, ditch the wrist sling. Try a finger sling and then also make your best effort to use it. I think its possible that you are inducing all sorts of unwanted tensions during anchor and expansion by your brain anticipating the death grip, post release. You must try to allow the bow to fall from your hand and let the finger sling catch for you.

Have a contest with yourself at pointblank range. Make the entire goal just be not death gripping the bow. It will probably be difficult at first but removing the aiming element (or at least the desire to hit center) will help you work on your problem.

Try to familiarize yourself with the " barrel of the gun" concept as espoused in the nts system.

Slow everything down. You can still be fluid; just slow it down.

You're making a lot of improvements and being this critical is just going to help you advance more. Thanks for sharing.
Gorgeous bow Jinks! I like it minus the white strap!
Just from observation, my first thought was your elbow seems high and I wonder if you are really using more shoulder than back. A couple of the releases are almost jerked off the string and your string arm comes back and down. Seems like an over exaggerated pull through release.
Might try a few shots with lower elbow, and really feel the hold coming from between the shoulder blades. And I agree with kenn that your expansion should actually be a smaller movement from the back and certainly not enough to pull your hand away from your face. I've Been watching some youtube videos of the fita shooters. It doesn't look like they move at all but they do ever so slightly as they expand through the clicker.
Don't know if that's is right or not but was just an observation. Most of all have fun and enjoy that bow!
Thanks everyone...especially Kenn who took time out to send me some vids of how he does it and everyone's commentary is falling in line with the fact that I need to make some serious changes or suffer ongoing form gremlins...and I need to do it now as I'm hoping to attend the TBOF event in Ocala the end of this month and don't want to shame myself to badly holding everyone up looking for arrows! LOL!...but still have some fun and meet some folks.

Even with 200gr points these 28 1/4" long .650 cheetah arrows are still on the stiff side so I ordered up some .800 spine VAP V6's last night that are 30 3/4" long w/ 120gr glue-in target points and 3" parabolic LW feathers for this bow...an since finger slings kind of urk me?...I just got off the phone with John Dill at Kanati...and ordered up a two tone osage leather strap/clamp wrist sling...should be a sweet rig when I'm done...and now I need to go screw the thumb rest on my AAE Cavalier tab and go try what Kenn showed me in his vids...along with much of what's been advised here.

Wish me luck and thanks again to all who've shared, L8R, Bill. :)
 

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This is the highest anchor I can comfortably use:


Notice the slight head tilt that has to happen in order to get behind the arrow. At first it felt less than comfortable but now I'm very happy with the facial references and how relaxed my hand is. Getting the front shoulder down is a bit of an issue but since then I've reduced the mass on the bow and that is helping.

Something to note: having the draw hand completely vertical can create a lot of tension. It's much more natural to have the bottom of your hand a little further out then the index.
Observe this guy who seems to know what he's doing:


-Grant
 
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Something to note: having the draw hand completely vertical can create a lot of tension. It's much more natural to have the bottom of your hand a little further out then the index.
Observe this guy who seems to know what he's doing:


-Grant
His string hand appears to be almost 45 deg's, ever seen that before Jinks? :D
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Well?...I tried Kenns method with my AAE tab using the chin rest as a thumb rest and getting the thumb buried in the front jawbone/cheekbone intersection and discovered what I discovered 1,000 x's before....

"What works for 1 archer might work for a million but it doesn't work for me."

Cause it seemed like my necks too short, my heads too round and my cheekbones stick out a mile from my eye but it was a definite no go...as the only way I could get my eye over the arrow was with a very heavy cant and by the time I got there?...it felt like the anchor was solid but everything else was lost in space....string blur looked like it belonged to another shooter standing next to me. LOL!

That said?...not all was lost either as I was able to use certain bits and pieces but I had to lose the AAE...go back to my Jenkins 3under tab...then drop down and bury the index knuckle there...but the biggest benefits came by way of lowering my string arm elbow/forearm back down to shoulder level and staying focused on a rotational motion follow through.

I dunno...still sorting things out...starting to feel like a glove works best for me. :(
 

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Well ya gave it a shot. Remember though your eye doesn't have to be over the arrow to hit its mark. All it takes is a consistent anchor, strong bow arm, and a repeatable loose of the string. My string blur is on the riser, not winking the tip as you described in another post. Were you shooting 3 under? Give that glove to your wife for gardening so your not tempted to use it again. Lol

Ps bow looks good without the white sling, but looked good with it as well. You put your arrow in the 10ring every time and let those guys tease all they want!
 
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Discussion Starter #17
Well ya gave it a shot. Remember though your eye doesn't have to be over the arrow to hit its mark. All it takes is a consistent anchor, strong bow arm, and a repeatable loose of the string. My string blur is on the riser, not winking the tip as you described in another post. Were you shooting 3 under? Give that glove to your wife for gardening so your not tempted to use it again. Lol

Ps bow looks good without the white sling, but looked good with it as well. You put your arrow in the 10ring every time and let those guys tease all they want!
Like I said Kenn...not all was lost as what your vid method did was to get me concentrating on that very nook/cranny where the jawline meets cheekbone...and that in and of itself actually resolved my primary problem...because what that did was moved my anchor from a place where anchoring on the back of that joint and expanding was causing me to lose contact where now instead of cupping the back of the jaw hinge with my web?...I've got my index finger knuckle "BURIED IN FRONT" of that very joint so instead of losing contact on expansion?...it's getting that knuckle driven into even harder and tighter...major issue resolved...thanks to you sir! :)

And I've got two vids now for you all to review...the 2nd one is uploading now...but it's the one where I was like...yep...that's why...as I can clearly see exactly what I was feeling...where my cheekbone sticks out so far that if I get any portion of my hand above it?...my string blur heads to the far east! LOL!

Here's the first one...oh and thanks again!

 

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You look more in control of your shot jinks, think you arm looks fine "before" you lower it. I think lowering it engages lat muscles and those are not the back muscles you want to use for rotation. I'm looking out my window at about 12" of snow, jealous of your situation there. :D
 
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You look more in control of your shot jinks, think you arm looks fine "before" you lower it. I think lowering it engages lat muscles and those are not the back muscles you want to use for rotation. I'm looking out my window at about 12" of snow, jealous of your situation there. :D
Hmmm....I thought it was getting me more into the back but maybe you're right...I could've been getting my lats in the mix...I try again and see...meanwhile?...here's that "Frontal Vid"....where you can more clearly see why I have to stay under my cheekbone...I think. :lol:

 

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Keep that elbow up. Ideally the line of force runs from the point of the elbow into the center of pressure in your bow-arm. That also encourages the expansion to be a rotational movement rather than linear.
I've got the same wide cheeks and narrow eyes. Medium anchors referencing the bottom of the cheek work great. Really high and side of face ones don't.

I use a Cav Elite but any metal backed tab works for this:
I let the thumb stay relaxed rather than forcing onto anything.
I place the thumb knuckle on the side of the bottom jaw with the thumb along it.
The index knuckle just under the cheek bone.
And the tab face goes under the cheek further inward.
The string is on the front of my cheek bone.

My head tilt is set by the relationship between my index and thumb knuckles. This makes for a very consistent angle which is fast to find and doesn't encourage creeping forward into the anchor.
I don't use teeth for a reference.

-Grant
 
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