[Phil]

In the beautiful English village of Weare Giffard in the county of Devon there's a church with a rather interesting wall painting. The early 15th century painting shows the martyrdom os St Edmond tied to a tree shot by two archers. The archer on the right seems to be string walking .....

 

[c_m_shooter]

Can't be, stringwalking isn't traditional....

 

[SagarG]

Possibly a fixed crawl. I can't imagine the tillers of such bows handling the variances of string walking well.
Earliest examples of fixed crawls / string walking I can think of is Mongolian archers when shooting off the index knuckle side of the bow with a thumb draw. They crawl their thumb down a bit on the string. Likely to avoid hand pressure on the arrow shaft. They've been shooting off the index knuckle for at least 100 years (based off photographic evidence) so the technique is possibly fairly old.

edit: I forgot, but my profile picture is actually an example of this technique from Tibet.

 

[Hank D Thoreau]

I don't think the picture is an accurate depiction. For example, the draw arm positions are unrealistic. Much of what is classified as ancient art, was stylized. This is just my guess. My art history days are long behind me.

 

[Remote]

I don't think the picture is an accurate depiction. For example, the draw arm positions are unrealistic. Much of what is classified as ancient art, was stylized. This is just my guess. My art history days are long behind me.

My thoughts the same. I can't remember where but I saw an old painting with the string hand above the arrow. How many with fist grips and arrow to the chest elbow down. More so an execution does seem an odd context for such a method.

But you never know. Surely for a human activity so ancient and widespread someone must have experimented with the method, even if it would require shaving back the tiller for one particular crawl. Any mentions in old texts of double nock sets? Sagar's example is evidence of it in use with thumb. Whether it made any practical sense with fingers on the battlefield is another thing. After all, nock fit was probably not factory grade back then.

 

[gsurko]

Or the painter messed up.

 

[Draven O]

There is another option: the painter had no idea about archery and he just painted what he thought “it looked good”. Or the models were “late starters”. That low elbow and fingers nowhere near the nock is typical way of drawing the bow for the children who just started archery.

 

[SagarG]

There is another option: the painter had no idea about archery and he just painted what he thought “it looked good”. Or the models were “late starters”. That low elbow and fingers nowhere near the nock is typical way of drawing the bow for the children who just started archery.

That is likely the answer. The low elbow is a kind of proper technique as exhibited by Ishi

but it looks very different than what's depicted in the painting

My thoughts the same. I can't remember where but I saw an old painting with the string hand above the arrow. How many with fist grips and arrow to the chest elbow down. More so an execution does seem an odd context for such a method.

I see this too on Assyrian art.

With the draw hand being above the line of the arrow. There's a lot of mystery around Assyrian draw techniques.

Probably a little off topic from Phil's original post, but I don't think he minds.

 

[Carboniac]

Some ancient art at least shows stances that make sense - nothing about those pictures remind me of any sort of reality.

 

[SagarG]

Some ancient art at least shows stances that make sense - nothing about those pictures remind me of any sort of reality.

Since you used the plural pictures I assume you are also referring to the photos I posted. I can't vouch for OP's painting, but the postures and stances I posted are very much reflective of reality. Both the Tibetan and Californian archers are using documented techniques still practiced by some today. The subtleties of form in the Assyrian wall reliefs would be well placed in a textbook on Ming and Qing Chinese archery over a thousand of years later. The artists who crafted those were either experienced archers themselves or working under the supervision of experienced archers who were very particular about depicting war bow form.

 

[Phil]

Here's the supporting text

"
Two archers flank him, both wearing fashionable very short doublets and taking aim with their longbows. What look like large and prominent purses slung from their belts might possibly be quivers for arrows, but it is very hard to be sure about this.

Still more puzzling are the colours used here. The strong blue-green of the doublets, the purses and, rather incongruously, Edmund’s halo, is very unusual, and the painting might have been retouched in post-medieval times. But the blue pigment could equally well suggest that although this is not a particularly accomplished painting, its size and the elaborate diapering, along with the use of costly pigments, made it an expensive commision, more impressive perhaps in its original state than it appears now."

 

[Carboniac]

Since you used the plural pictures I assume you are also referring to the photos I posted. I can't vouch for OP's painting, but the postures and stances I posted are very much reflective of reality. Both the Tibetan and Californian archers are using documented techniques still practiced by some today. The subtleties of form in the Assyrian wall reliefs would be well placed in a textbook on Ming and Qing Chinese archery over a thousand of years later. The artists who crafted those were either experienced archers themselves or working under the supervision of experienced archers who were very particular about depicting war bow form.

I was referencing the art in the original post.

 

[pavan]

Possibly a fixed crawl. I can't imagine the tillers of such bows handling the variances of string walking well.
Earliest examples of fixed crawls / string walking I can think of is Mongolian archers when shooting off the index knuckle side of the bow with a thumb draw. They crawl their thumb down a bit on the string. Likely to avoid hand pressure on the arrow shaft. They've been shooting off the index knuckle for at least 100 years (based off photographic evidence) so the technique is possibly fairly old.

edit: I forgot, but my profile picture is actually an example of this technique from Tibet.

Interesting picture, not aiming with the arrow, the eyes see what the eyes see, he obviously can see the arrow. What is amazing is how the bow string is locked behind the thumb ring and how he strengthens his thumb with the index finger.

 

[SagarG]

Interesting picture, not aiming with the arrow, the eyes see what the eyes see, he obviously can see the arrow. What is amazing is how the bow string is locked behind the thumb ring and how he strengthens his thumb with the index finger.

Locking the thumb with the index finger and sometimes even the middle finger is almost universal.

The only exception I can think of is Ishi technique where the middle finger is used for the lock while the index is curled above the arrow nock. As far as I can tell this thumb draw technique coevolved independently in the Americas greatly separated from the Manchu technique pictured in the 1938 photograph.
I believe the archer is a woman. She may be shooting without a conscious visual reference, but often modern thumb archers (particularly korean traditional archers) use the bottom of their hand as visual references for long distance shots.

 

[stevelong]

Pavan, thanks for pointing out the thumb & index finger in the picture, I also figger he's shooting at distance, which might explain the arrow being tilted up, if I see the picture correctly.

 

[SagarG]

I was able to find this other picture of the original artwork. I don't think the high arrow on the right hand archer is a mistake. It looks too deliberate, perhaps it was a visual cue to something in the painting that has since worn away?

 

[Remote]

Historical references to double nock sets and fit from the Welsh and English traditions may tell us something.

 

[Phil]

Thanks for the clearer picture .... it looks like the archer on the right is looking right down the arrow.

 

[Creature]

I think the painter was working from what they thought an archer did not what they actually did. The earliest written instruction I have seen references keeping the eye fixed on the target. I do not think one picture can be taken as a bit of evidence as to string walking existing in a period of history. If other pictures existed then perhaps so.

 

[MihajloSimsic]

This wont stop the trad purists lol. Thumb draws are as old as time and they still consider them to be nontraditional.