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Tecum-tha says something that's very true:

People who shoot without a system definitely don't want to be filmed or keep score.
Matter of fact it's best they don't shoot around other people who do have a system. They should also avoid hunting unless they are masters at tracking wounded game.
 

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Tecum-tha says something that's very true:

People who shoot without a system definitely don't want to be filmed or keep score.
Matter of fact it's best they don't shoot around other people who do have a system. They should also avoid hunting unless they are masters at tracking wounded game.
Your detestation of instinctive shooting precedes you. It's the same each time.

I note that I have not seen instinctive shooters here on TradTalk trolling on system shooting threads, telling them how crap their way of shooting is, time and again. Also note that many of us instinctive shooters know full well how to shoot conscious gap or string walk, but choose to shoot instinctive anyway, some or all the time, for all sorts of different reasons. You do you.
 

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IMO, shooting as soon as you hit anchor means that you are aiming while drawing the bow back and, to me, that is a definite recipe for target panic. I think it’s far better to pre-aim, draw, settle, and aim again at anchor (as lbg alluded to).

Personally speaking, I’ve gone to a more instinctive method over the past few years. Due to this dumb thing called the real world, I just don’t have the time to shoot and practice enough to keep my TP at bay. While the pinpoint accuracy isn’t there compared to a hard aiming system, at least I can shoot more relaxed and my bad shots aren’t total “yips”.
 

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@Grantmac: What a bunch of horsemanure. Film a bunch of random system shooters on a course and you will see most do not shoot much better. But they can always be spotted.
Most people don't want to be filmed due to privacy issues. A lot of people, myself included, generally don't score. I don't want to waste my spare time writing down numbers. I do that for a living during the week. Writing down scores takes a bunch of my enjoyment away. On most courses, the 10 ring may not be the best kill shot due to angles and my only interest is if my first arrow will kill.
Most target shooters always assume you come to a shoot shooting your best tuned equipment for shooting the best score. Wrong. For me it is often trying out something new: new arrows, new bow etc. due to lack of daylight during the week not working.
As an instinctive shooter I frequently shoot from the ASA "known 50 stakes" if the shooting corridor is good (high enough for my arch with my 650 grain arrows).
Generally, instinctive shooters should prefer the nordic 3 arrow scoring system, because it has a training effect. Single arrow scoring has no training effect for instinctive shooters.

@ lumis: In instinctive shooting there is no aiming at anchor required. Otherwise no horse archer would be able to hit anything from a galloping horse, but they do.
Your TP most likely comes from instinctive shooting using sight and system shooter training methods. How do you train?
Pinpoint accuracy is not required to kill game. Every animal and distance has its tolerable error circle. That is essentially the bunny targets purpose.
 

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Let's agree to disagree on whether aiming is required or not for any shooting style. And the accuracy I'm looking for, with all due respect to horse archers, is far better than what I've seen from them.
 

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Your detestation of instinctive shooting precedes you. It's the same each time.

I note that I have not seen instinctive shooters here on TradTalk trolling on system shooting threads, telling them how crap their way of shooting is, time and again. Also note that many of us instinctive shooters know full well how to shoot conscious gap or string walk, but choose to shoot instinctive anyway, some or all the time, for all sorts of different reasons. You do you.
It's clear that you are quite new to this. There is an entire history associated with instinctive shooters campaigning to have other methods banned. Mainly because the moment someone starts using even a simple method like gap shooting the instinctive shooters simply can't win.

I've not even come close to losing to an instinctive shooter in over a decade. Not on my absolutely worst day after months of not practicing.
 

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Also note that many of us instinctive shooters know full well how to shoot conscious gap or string walk, but choose to shoot instinctive anyway, some or all the time, for all sorts of different reasons. You do you.
I am not quite certain this is true in real world. Once your brain was educated to associate a reference with a good result, you can't erased this. Even if you might chose an instinctive method, in reality it's not totally true. You can chose to rely less on the taught reference and let the work to be done at the awareness level, or you can chose to rely more on the reference when needed. The "naturals" are the ones who never learnt an aiming method. My 2 c.

PS I include in the "naturals" the archers who tried for a day an aiming method and decided is not for them. The archer who actually learnt to use the method successfully will have a hard time to not use it, even if just for a blink of the eye time frame.
 

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It's clear that you are quite new to this. There is an entire history associated with instinctive shooters campaigning to have other methods banned. Mainly because the moment someone starts using even a simple method like gap shooting the instinctive shooters simply can't win.

I've not even come close to losing to an instinctive shooter in over a decade. Not on my absolutely worst day after months of not practicing.
Even if any of that were actually true, it doesn't make it OK to climb up on a high horse, mock and troll a perfectly innocent thread talking about instinctive shooting. You could do other things with your time, rather than pick bones. It's weird man.
 

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I am not quite certain this is true in real world. Once your brain was educated to associate a reference with a good result, you can't erased this. Even if you might chose an instinctive method, in reality it's not totally true. You can chose to rely less on the taught reference and let the work to be done at the awareness level, or you can chose to rely more on the reference when needed. The "naturals" are the ones who never learnt an aiming method. My 2 c.

PS I include in the "naturals" the archers who tried for a day an aiming method and decided is not for them. The archer who actually learnt to use the method successfully will have a hard time to not use it, even if just for a blink of the eye time frame.
Some of what you say makes sense to me there. At the range I have found it most efficient to gap to a reference point on the target or butt itself depending on where my point on is. Rather than thinking in units, it's 'a bit above that line' sort of thing. String walking (once tiller issues are sorted out, eeek) is incredible, the precision you can attain. Just kick back, know your crawl and rely on the tools. After that point grouping all comes down to execution.

That's fun for a while, but not long, even on a good day and a great group. Scoring well using the most advanced calculated/assisted aiming method of the day is not what drew me to pure stick and string archery, slingshotting, throwing an axe, as a kid. I also work in a highly technical field and so the least archery has to do with conscious thought, the better.

Took me years to realise that the allure was the game of estimation. But not conscious distance estimation. It is no different than with sports like golf, and it's for this reason system shooting doesn't have my interest. Great to know the skills are sort of there, though, and can be used later!

When roving or on an unmarked 3D course with no high tech rangefinder, gapping in units or to reference points, a crawl, have no use to me. I don't walk around and say 'that little stump is about 37m away'. I know no one who can accurately guesstimate to 1, even 3, meter error margin in forest, down hill or up, past about 20m. If I do so and attempt to gap based on that conscious measured range estimation I'll surely miss, not only because my estimations are often quite off. Rather, I look at that spot for a time, draw, focus only on it and then quite often hit it, or close. Instinctive shooting is ideal for such settings, by far the best tool for the job, if you are good at it.

The instinctive archer's skill is in the execution, but the art is in their unconscious estimation. That's ancient and defines a true master of archery, in my book.
 

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Some of you are doing a big disservice to a lot of developing archers with your rants against instinctive aiming. Surveys have regularly shown that a majority of general sport archers and hunting archers prefer to aim that way. Note that it is a way to aim, not a way to shoot. I have taught dozens of newcomers to aim that way and with proper instruction most learn it easily, especially women and youths. Men with a background in riflery and pistolry sometimes cannot avoid mechanical aiming, but others have learnt hunting accuracy in a single session.

Understand that it is a short range proposition, where with a normal low anchor the arrow must be held well below the line of sight. As you move back the arrow must be raised to achieve a higher trajectory, and when it has risen near enough to the line of sight it would be foolish not to make use of it. Fred Bear once pointed out that then 'it is right in front of your face'.

For some men and older boys that may be at a considerable distance: 45 or 50 yards and from there back we use the sight gap to aim. Accurate? I won the California Indoor Championship at 20 yards, longbow classification, 9 or 10 years in a row, and various other championships. Larry Yien, 4 time world longbow champion his method as 'instinctive'. So I believe did the other 4 time world longbow champion, the late Steve Morley. We and many others have won a great many 3D events aiming instinctively at the common hunting ranges and a bit longer and gap aiming further out.

Archers have been defending and feeding their families with instinctive archery for 60,000 years. To claim that it cannot be accurate is ignorant and absurd. - lbg
 

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Anyone who thinks instinctive shooting is accurate enough to win in the modern era is welcome to try. Many do, very few succeed beyond the local level.
It may have been the most common method, before the internet allowed archers to see what was actually possible and recognize the shortcomings of the methods they had pursued.

FYI: Steve Morley's posts are easily found on this forum, in competition he gapped. He did it so well they tried to ban him which has been my experience as well. People really hate when you come along and make burgers out of their sacred cows.
 

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Anyone who thinks instinctive shooting is accurate enough to win in the modern era is welcome to try. Many do, very few succeed beyond the local level.
It may have been the most common method, before the internet allowed archers to see what was actually possible and recognize the shortcomings of the methods they had pursued.

FYI: Steve Morley's posts are easily found on this forum, in competition he gapped. He did it so well they tried to ban him which has been my experience as well. People really hate when you come along and make burgers out of their sacred cows.
Sucks to hear about the banning. I didn't know about that.

I don't think there's too much doubt that assisted aiming techniques like string-walking and conscious gapping will, most of the time, be superior in competitions at known distances. Put a sight on a bow and it's even more accurate. But most of us don't shoot instinctive to number-climb and win trophies, we choose to do it because it is an extremely fun and fascinating challenge requiring unique mental discipline and internal work to get results. Golfers, darts people, basketballers, pitchers, shotgunners and instinctive archers all have that in common.

That said, time and again I've seen string walkers and gappers completely fall apart on unmarked 3D courses, where distances are unknown and rangefinders are not allowed. They don't have the information they need to calculate and build their shot and so miss wildly high or low on their first shots. They have to fall back to instinctive gap, if they can (and some exp gappers sure can). Few can estimate distances on uneven & occluded terrain to sufficient accuracy to work a meaningful crawl, especially as distances increase. They have to send test shots and work it on the serving.

It's there that instinctive shines, and really what it's all about. No measurement, no calculation, no numbers, no thinking. Just stick, string, arrow, self-trust and focus - AKA traditional archery for almost all human cultures.

Like @tecum-tha I've seen stringwalkers and instinctive shooters on equal footing even indoors quite often. Folk with sights or a crawl generally do score higher, yes. Of course it's going to be harder for instinctive shooters to compete against assisted/system archers when distances are known. But that's why it's so much more impressive when they do hold their own.

(Edited for crap Eng grammar)
 

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Mr. Morley did gap at longer ranges, so do I and most instinctive archers. Larry Yien has written how he gaps at the riser. Again, instinctive is for shorter situations where gappig is impractical with an anchor around mouth height. I begin to gap out around 45 yards with my longish draw. Many begin a bit closer, some farther.

Now, for onlookers to this kerfuffle: this site has long attracted many great string walkers, and advocates of other aiming systems. I pipe up about the more natural, intuitive, perhaps more 'traditional', methods that most archers, especially newcomers favor. I have no problem with the other aiming methods, including bowsights, I just don't want the site to make them think that they must use one of the more calculated methods to shoot well at normal modest distances. It is not so.

We can all shoot as we please and hope to get good at it. As long as it has a single string and no wheels it is traditional and there are various ways to aim it. I have tried several. Most of the time I prefer instinctive, intuitive, whatever you wish to call it. Most archers do. - lbg
 

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I'm talking specifically about unmarked 3D.
Field and Target it's not even worth the discussion.
A decent stringwalker will score +9pts/target all day long.

I'm not sure where you shoot but it sounds as though you simply haven't seen what good archers can do. I was in the same situation until I moved into an area of talent. I thought I was a decent archer using the instinctive technique, and I was with that technique. But I wasn't by any means a good archer compared to someone with a decent system.
 

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Mr. Morley did gap at longer ranges, so do I and most instinctive archers. Larry Yien has written how he gaps at the riser. Again, instinctive is for shorter situations where gappig is impractical with an anchor around mouth height. I begin to gap out around 45 yards with my longish draw. Many begin a bit closer, some farther.

Now, for onlookers to this kerfuffle: this site has long attracted many great string walkers, and advocates of other aiming systems. I pipe up about the more natural, intuitive, perhaps more 'traditional', methods that most archers, especially newcomers favor. I have no problem with the other aiming methods, including bowsights, I just don't want the site to make them think that they must use one of the more calculated methods to shoot well at normal modest distances. It is not so.

We can all shoot as we please and hope to get good at it. As long as it has a single string and no wheels it is traditional and there are various ways to aim it. I have tried several. Most of the time I prefer instinctive, intuitive, whatever you wish to call it. Most archers do. - lbg
Good post. I also gap but instinctively on any shots past about 15m with heavy arrows, lighter it is further. The point's in my view peripherally, more so on approaching point on. Can't ignore it!

Bcause I know how arrows fly from that given bow I let my bow arm drift it to the right place and let fly. Only looking at the thing I want to hit. At long shots I'm sometimes at anchor for 5 or more seconds until it's ready. Don't need to know the distance, don't need to think in Metric or Imperial.

Is that a "system"? No. Is it gapping? Sure. Is it instinctive? Yes.

It's great we can mix and match methods to suit how we want to shoot. There is no one best way to shoot stick and string bows.

Great - if not impassioned - thread, tapping out.
 

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I wouldn't complicate it if I were you, but If you have a DVD player I can send you a DVD from Bob Wesley. His method of shooting a longbow is Hoard Hill's style. He was a protege of Howard Hill. I went to his house for a 3 day private seminar a long time ago.

If you are just shooting 20 yards I do not think you need it, but if you want to be able to shoot different longer distances it could help you.

PM me to let me know if you want it and if you do give me your address.

Gil
I would really appreciate that DVD. After carpal tunnel surgery on both wrists and shoulder surgery, I have been shooting a crossbow for a few years. I bought a 45# longbow but I am having a lot of problems shooting shorter distances. At longer distances, I put the point below or slightly below and can get pretty close. I definitely need some help.
 

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Sorry it is on loan to someone. If you want to get one you can order it here.

 

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I believe it was alluded to above but I’ll revist it.
Shooting instinctive and shooting without holding are two separate things.

Shooting instinctive can be done by holding for as long as you need to until it “feels” right or with no hold time.

And an archer can also shoot using a continuous motion AND aim while doing it.

If you read Rick McKinney’s (Olympic archer) book he describes using continuous motion ( which can be quite slow at anchor) while aiming and getting through the clicker as opposed to holding and then trying to start pulling again.

The way I see it there are 2 potential problems with holding. One is physical, the moment you come to anchor your muscles start fatiguing and lose strength and your form starts collapsing. The longer you hold the worst it gets and limits how strong a bow you can handle. The other issue is mental, having stopped at anchor and found your aim however you do that, you now have to decide when to release which is when we blow the shot with a pluck or second guess if you really are ready to release and do a “double clutch”. Where as a choreographed and practiced fluid continuous shot can be done without conscious thought which can work well under pressure conditions.
 
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