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Inconsistant

6K views 69 replies 26 participants last post by  jerbearyukon 
#1 ·
It is hard for me to accept "bad days". Shooting instinctive is like shooting 3 pointers in a basketball game. Sometimes your hot, sometimes not. I have pondered giving up instinctive because it is hard to accept not being consistent. A gapper probably, for the most part, is consistent in their scores. Or should I say "more so". I have tried aiming methods. But decided that my personal preferrence is that I want to shoot "instinctive", LOL, per my definition. I tell myself that the 3d is simply a backstop for the spot I wish to hit. But I know that my mind is releasing "at the 3D", rather than the spot I try to focus on. Funny how it works. Example, probably true for most, if I shoot at a 5inch circle, my group will be 3 times the size if I had shot at a 1/2 inch circle. This is the issue. How can you train your mind? The saying aim small hit small, aim big, hit big, we all know that, but when my "mind sights" settle in the center of that 3D, it releases. This presents a problem for hunting as well. Because I don't wish to shoot centered up, or 10 ring on a deer, but rather, low heart, just in case of the drop/load. So, I tell my mind that it is just a backstop for the point I want to hit.... but how do I get my mind to forget the 3d???? Any drills, mind games, disciplines, etc....... Surely we all could benifit to some degree.
 
#2 ·
Shooting instinctive for me was a mess of inconsistency. One day I was drilling apples, the next day I couldn't hit the side of a barn. What I didn't like about it was I could never pin point what I was doing wrongly. So one day I raised up my anchor and there the arrow was under my eye, and it was like a light went off in my head, I should have done this along time ago. So now I gap, and don't have aiming issues. I don't make every shot, but I know that it's a form issue and I can correct it and move on. The other benefit is I can figure out my gaps pretty quickly and don't have to shoot thousands of arrows to ingrain the instinctive aiming. Probably not what you want to hear, but an aiming method is the way to go. Once you get used to the gaps they kind of become automatic, almost instinctive.
 
#3 ·
At home, in my backyard, I shoot rag boxes. 18 x 18 inch. They are large enough that I don't shoot at the center of the box. Arrows have no problem hitting their mark. Maybe I should practice shooting at spots marked on the corners of the box. A training exercise designed to stop shooting at the center of a 3d. ????? I do have 1 3d deer target. Maybe an exercise of putting target stickers on strange, out of center places. Like high hip. Or maybe.... no stickers, and pick a spot each shot at strange locations. An exercise designed to gain confidence of "out of center"
 
#5 ·
You have to separate the aiming from the releasing. As soon as your release is dictated by your site picture your in trouble. Gapping or instinctive it doesn't matter you can't pull the trigger based on what you see.

Matt
 
#7 ·
IMO the most useful drill for consistency is walk backs. You see instinctive shooter shoot arrow after arrow after arrow at fixed distance practice. NOT GOOD. Blank bales and walk backs.

You are trying to train your right brain to control a release. You got to give it the comparative views so as to not confuse it. Seriously :)
 
#8 ·
I started low, it gave me huge gaps. Then I spent almost a year shooting really high, like finger draped over my cheekbone high. It forced me to cant the bow to get my eye over the arrow which instigated right/left errant shots and really worried my shoulder and neck muscles. Now I seem to have found the happy medium anchor. Now I can get the back muscles back into the shot again for a much stronger release but the shaft being right there still lets me gunbarrel to almost the same extent as with the high anchor.

I spent most of the day today doing walkbacks on a 3D target. The only conscious aiming I do now is to place the tip of the arrow directly under my intended target and once that's done, as Rod Jenkins says, I let the guy in the back do his job. My only focus from that point on is my shot sequence.

LOL....And I shoot better at home too!
 
#9 ·
I like to shoot at small targets on a big block. I like to use soda bottle caps. If you can pick it out of the large block target, picking a spot on a 3D gets easier. I also like to throw tennis balls and shoot from where you are standing. Different distances and angles makes for great 3D practice.


Sent from my RM-915_nam_usa_228 using Tapatalk
 
#10 ·
You shoot well at home cause the shot never changes. Let me rephrase that to say that even if you move around and shoot your target from various distances and angles, your mind has already made that shot or several close enough to know where to place the bow. Also even with no conscious thought at all, I believe your subconcious counts the steps and knows the distance. This is why I used to throw my arrows out from the target, then purposely walk away and approach each from the side to mess with my mind. Even still standing anywhere from 30yds out my mind has a sight picture of my target and knows where my bow arm should be. I will tell you this, if you have any itch to try an aiming method, shooting a ton of instinctive will cause you TP. I'm fighting that now as my mind says the sight picture is right, let's send the arrow. My conscious says whoa, were not to that step in the shot sequence and the result is a fight within my brain. Instinctive is cool when your on, not so cool on those off days. If your not picking a spot on that 3d, your not focused or aiming. If you just look at the 3d as a back stop, of course you will center punch it. Joel explains why in MBB4.
 
#11 · (Edited)
Instinctive shooting is not really the issue.
I've had the same 3D target/real animal thing happen.
When I started 3D I always shot for the kill.
Which is not where most 20 rings are.
So I had to learn where all those 20 rings were and learn to shoot at them instead of where you should shoot..
I took photos of all the 20 rings on all the 3D targets used locally and once I started shooting at them and no other part of the target, my scores went up a lot.
With animals I shoot for the heart and nothing else.
I learnt how to focus on my real target, not all the stuff surrounding it.
On my home targets I have a single black 2" dot on a white back ground that I visually transfer to everything I shoot at when I need to.
I'm telling ya' man, this whole thing is a mind game like no other.

John.
 
#12 ·
some great comments, like John from NZ says. its a mind game, I believe that everyone is describing forms of TP. In the past I have spent two days with Rod and a day with Joel. You have to train your self to use the shot sequence. go thru each step and then when your at your anchor pick a SPOT and as Rod says pull to conclusion or as Joel says "KEEP PULLING KEEP PULLING.
I also think a clicker helps in some cases
 
#13 ·
Instinctive shooting (by defination) means that in your shooting you're not using anything for a reference… That is, you "see" the intended target only and make no use of anything else to successfully engage it.

With no desire or inclination to change your shooting style, I'd say that there are a number of things to consider… Keeping it short n sweet, consider keeping consistent the coordination of consistent form held at a solid anchor with the focusing to a point. (you mentioned the "aim small hit small" in the first post)

I mention this as, IMO, it is possible to be a consistent form instinctive shooter… But (again just my opinion) most instinctive archers over accentuate the "seeing only the target" and way underestimate the consistency in shooting form… often not even reaching a consistent anchor. Good Luck! and consider working the bale.

Tom
 
#14 ·
This is so typical. We see it over and over, ad infinitum.
Persistent will power, to do anything and everything to avoid finally learning how to shoot the bow.
Note: This includes aiming.
The other alternative is to return to the wheel bow.
Let us know if you ever become willing to let go of old ideas and become ready to accept and implement correct advice and direction.
Your choice...
 
#17 ·
I don't wish to be argumentative, but you say this as if a right way and wrong way exists. Probably so in what I call "olympic style". I agree in one sense , "your choice". Your statement "learning how to shoot the bow" does have merit in the fact that learning all styles of archery is interesting, fun and informative. Something I would like for my sons to do. But... you seem to imply that everyone whom shoots without an aiming method is wrong. Why not go ahead and install a sight on your bow? Sure you guys have much to offer in way of advice. Starting with what has worked for you, apparently an aiming method. Which I realize is much more, proper draw, stance, aim, anchor, release, follow through, etc, under the umbrella of "archery". When I think of the word "archery" these things come to mind. But, I don't wish to shoot this way. Several debatable reasons. One, I want to hunt with as high a poundage as I can shoot comfortable, passed the weight of "aim comfortable". This, trying for a passthrough. Traditional shots, mine anyway, are mostly downward. Not having an exit causes them to bleed into the chest cavity rather than the ground. Dead is dead, but I prefer easy tracking. The ability to shoot out of form would seem like a shot not to be taken by an "olympic style" shooter, but is almost always the case from a tree stand. I could go on and on, but no need. I just wish to point out that some of us choose this style for reasons, and mostly, I have shot both, I just much more enjoy my style better. I will try to perfect my style.... and I suspect that there are some very good instinctive shooters on the tournament trail , shooting great scores. How do you tell them they are doing it wrong? Anyway, I am rambling, typical of me when I get rained out of work. You might be thinking, LOL, I did not ask for all this. But I enjoy discussion. I ponder the responses. And just in case it is taken as argumentative, rather than in the spirit of which I use, I'll not respond to this topic again [instinctive vs olympic style], giving anybody who wants, the last word. I may ask some questions, as usual regarding release methods, etc. This is why I come here, to learn from olympic shooters and to adapt some of their methods to my own.
 
#15 ·
Delta McKensie makes an inexpensive midsection 3D target that mounts with a peg in a hole inside the front leg section. Almost every shot causes it to pivot/rotate, forcing you to walk to a new spot for the next shot. I won't recommend it for the durability, I've had to re-foam the 10 ring twice since Christmas, but that rotation takes me all over the place on the range and gives me a new look every time.

As to instinctive, I don't like opening that can of worms but I that's how I started shooting or should I say, trying to shoot. My accuracy improved exponentially when I started mapping my gaps with each rig to see exactly why I was hitting where I was hitting.

There may be some great instinctive shooters and if you're one I'm happy for you but few come to mind. I had a guy at the last tournament ask me if I was shooting instinctive or gapping. When I replied "Yes" he got a funny look. I told I use whatever makes the point hit where I want it to hit and that anything done several thousand times becomes instinctive. He got a little huffy and said he was a totally instinctive shooter. I said "I know" but I left out the "that's why your scores are 30-40 points off the pace every weekend...."
 
#16 ·
The reason Rod, Joel, or for that matter coach Lee teach pulling/expanding to conclusion is it mentally separates the aiming from the releasing.

These are two separate acts - where we get messed up is when we combine the two.

Here is how I run a shot

1 - assemble the shot and come to anchor - I am not aiming in any more than a general sense now - none of that burn a hole stuff from the get go. If you burn a hole from the get go your brain thinks the site pic is right before you even get to anchor.

2 - Aim - doesn't really matter how you aim but slow down and enjoy it. You have time - if you don't have time you are over bowed. If the aim ain't right LET DOWN if a purple bird flies over your left shoulder LET DOWN.

3 - CONSCIOUSLY think "ok let's finish this thing" and bring your shot to conclusion.

YOU need to decide to bring the shot to conclusion on your terms - anything else is target panic or the road to it.

This doesn't need to be a slow process once you learn to shoot but in the beginning it needs to be very slow and deliberate.
 
#68 ·
The reason Rod, Joel, or for that matter coach Lee teach pulling/expanding to conclusion is it mentally separates the aiming from the releasing.

These are two separate acts - where we get messed up is when we combine the two.

Here is how I run a shot

1 - assemble the shot and come to anchor - I am not aiming in any more than a general sense now - none of that burn a hole stuff from the get go. If you burn a hole from the get go your brain thinks the site pic is right before you even get to anchor.

2 - Aim - doesn't really matter how you aim but slow down and enjoy it. You have time - if you don't have time you are over bowed. If the aim ain't right LET DOWN if a purple bird flies over your left shoulder LET DOWN.

3 - CONSCIOUSLY think "ok let's finish this thing" and bring your shot to conclusion.

YOU need to decide to bring the shot to conclusion on your terms - anything else is target panic or the road to it.

This doesn't need to be a slow process once you learn to shoot but in the beginning it needs to be very slow and deliberate.
Old post but I like how Matt puts it.
 
#18 ·
You asked how to deal with your inconsistencies and you were given the answer. If you continue down the road you are on you will continue to deal with it.

Having a shot sequence doesn't preclude instinctive aim, or for that matter canting the bow and crouching like G Fred, it just puts you in control of your shot. Until you are I control of your shot you will be inconsistent at best.

You are a hunter you owe it to the game you hunt to be the best shot you possibly can be.
 
#19 ·
"and I suspect that there are some very good instinctive shooters on the tournament trail"

I doubt this, especially on a National level in IBO 3D. Most of those who have the buckles use an aiming method and and do not Hunch over and snap shoot.
 
#20 ·
If it's help with your form you need could you post a video clip of several shots so we can check for differences between them?
 
#22 ·
Everyone is inconsistent to a degree, otherwise no one would have any nocks left. My "inconsistant" is in my mind. Probably not to the degree that you guys assume. I should state that I am trying to perfect my shot, not correct it. I want the discipline of shooting at 12 rings. I can shoot this good at home. But on 3d's, during a tournament, my release "goes" "at the center of the 10". Not where I wish to shoot. Not to say that it always hits the ten, that is not the intention of the thread. The intention is to overcome releasing at the "safe" larger spot of the ten, and shoot at my focus point of the 12. It is a form, mildly of target panic.
 
#26 ·
There has been a lot of excellent advise given thus far, so I don’t want to rehash it. If what you really want is a way to train yourself to pick a spot and stay focused on it throughout the shot, stop shooting targets with obvious spots. You have to train yourself to find a spot and stay focused on it, and you can’t do that when all your targets already have spots picked out.

Forget the bullseye targets and 3D animals. Get a bag, bale or block and pin a flat piece of blank tan cardboard to it. Do not shoot for the center, but at “spots” you pick out elsewhere. It may stink at first, and your eyes may wander all over the place during the shot. But eventually your focus should fall into place. One does not learn to walk by not walking.

With respect to what others are saying about shot routines and aiming methods, don’t dismiss them so easily. Even John’s reply, which may have sounded harsh, made a good point. I’ve always contended that the most important thing about improving one’s accuracy is having an open mind.
 
#28 ·
There has been a lot of excellent advise given thus far, so I don't want to rehash it. If what you really want is a way to train yourself to pick a spot and stay focused on it throughout the shot, stop shooting targets with obvious spots. You have to train yourself to find a spot and stay focused on it, and you can't do that when all your targets already have spots picked out.

Forget the bullseye targets and 3D animals. Get a bag, bale or block and pin a flat piece of blank tan cardboard to it. Do not shoot for the center, but at "spots" you pick out elsewhere. It may stink at first, and your eyes may wander all over the place during the shot. But eventually your focus should fall into place. One does not learn to walk by not walking.

With respect to what others are saying about shot routines and aiming methods, don't dismiss them so easily. Even John's reply, which may have sounded harsh, made a good point. I've always contended that the most important thing about improving one's accuracy is having an open mind.
Yes, and I appreciate the advice. I understand the motive in trying to get me to listen to what has worked well for others. Really, I do appreciate it
 
#30 ·
I will say that I have learned that the shot sequence is king. Aiming is secondary and not very important in the large scheme of things. I will sit in front of a target, any target, at 10-15 yards, and run my shot sequence to an exact science. From grip, to draw, to anchor to conclusion. I have found that doing this exactly the same way every time makes me a more accurate shooter regardless of aim. Am I perfect? No. Does this allow me to pinpoint the errors in my shooting and correct them? Yes. Without a controlled shot sequence of any kind, aiming is irrelevant. Consistency is a result of an exact and repeatable shot sequence.
 
#32 ·
1gr8bldr as a hunter I can appreciate your thoughts so I'll leave you with this: Proper form...while optimal... is not always possible and as hunters we know that. We know that there are very few shots in the woods where we're standing straight up and down at 15 yards with an animal standing broadside with nothing between us and it. But until I had some frame of reference...until I began measuring and recording gaps to show me exactly where my arrows hit at different yardages and why I centerpunched that branch but cleared this one and why the arrow moves left or right when I had to cant the bow to lean out or kneel to clear some obstruction... until I started taking notes and was able to see in black and white how the differences encountered in hunting positions caused my draw length to change and my impact to go left when I was looking right or not bending at the waist caused my shots to go high....until then I was just flinging lots of arrows and wondering why I was so inconsistent.

I hesitated to even post this, I'm sure not a pro and I don't have near the experience as those offering advice here. I've only been at this a couple of years myself. Simply measuring and understanding gaps took me from a 7+ average last 3D season to a 9+ so far this year. I've used them so much that I don't even have to think about them anymore but I still don't consider myself a gapper and I'm not a bit slower at the stake or in the woods than I was before. I just hit closer to the spot I was looking at more often....
 
#35 ·
I appreciate the response. I did work out a trajectory. Have never measured the results of canting, etc. As far as gapping goes, I feel I have an optimal situation. I hear others talk about aiming at the ground, etc. That sounds like a crued way of shooting, but my point on, point of impact was 22 yards. I figured this was good?
 
#38 ·
I always take the first shot as the most important shot since I am always thinking about the hunting situation. I had to retrain myself a few times due to surgeries and found that it is the form that causes the problem. I went back to shooting in the dark with a small light on the target and went from there. Shooting 3under cleaned the release up and tighten my groups up considerable when I switched over 20 yrs ago. Most important reminder is that we are not machines and will have a bad day and that is when to walk away for another time and that is where it keeps it interesting.
 
#39 ·
the OP started this thread with Inconsistency...


This is the whole reason I knew I had to change from shooting instinctive to a designated method....when I wanted to make the shot the worst is when I couldn't...I lost the biggest tournament I had ever shot at that time by 4 points and totally missed two targets.

I didn't have a method at that time but within a week I made the change.

Rod Jenkins in MBB said if you can engrain the shot sequence into your mind by shooting it 1000X then when it counts the subconscience will take over and execute the shot...however you have to do it right in practice,if youre cheating the sequence in practice then it doesn't work.


Dewayne Martin
 
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#45 ·
You don't need to pull anywhere near as much weight when you are getting into full expansion every time and hitting exactly where you want.
A bow shot inconsistently will not be in the best of tunes and just won't have the penetration.

I'd rather give up 10# of draw weight in return for 1" of consistent draw length.

Also it sounds like you have an extremely high anchor if you are getting those kinds of gap shooting split fingered. You may find that you are more about to use your back muscles with a lower anchor.

-Grant
 
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