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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
It is hard for me to accept "bad days". Shooting instinctive is like shooting 3 pointers in a basketball game. Sometimes your hot, sometimes not. I have pondered giving up instinctive because it is hard to accept not being consistent. A gapper probably, for the most part, is consistent in their scores. Or should I say "more so". I have tried aiming methods. But decided that my personal preferrence is that I want to shoot "instinctive", LOL, per my definition. I tell myself that the 3d is simply a backstop for the spot I wish to hit. But I know that my mind is releasing "at the 3D", rather than the spot I try to focus on. Funny how it works. Example, probably true for most, if I shoot at a 5inch circle, my group will be 3 times the size if I had shot at a 1/2 inch circle. This is the issue. How can you train your mind? The saying aim small hit small, aim big, hit big, we all know that, but when my "mind sights" settle in the center of that 3D, it releases. This presents a problem for hunting as well. Because I don't wish to shoot centered up, or 10 ring on a deer, but rather, low heart, just in case of the drop/load. So, I tell my mind that it is just a backstop for the point I want to hit.... but how do I get my mind to forget the 3d???? Any drills, mind games, disciplines, etc....... Surely we all could benifit to some degree.
 

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Shooting instinctive for me was a mess of inconsistency. One day I was drilling apples, the next day I couldn't hit the side of a barn. What I didn't like about it was I could never pin point what I was doing wrongly. So one day I raised up my anchor and there the arrow was under my eye, and it was like a light went off in my head, I should have done this along time ago. So now I gap, and don't have aiming issues. I don't make every shot, but I know that it's a form issue and I can correct it and move on. The other benefit is I can figure out my gaps pretty quickly and don't have to shoot thousands of arrows to ingrain the instinctive aiming. Probably not what you want to hear, but an aiming method is the way to go. Once you get used to the gaps they kind of become automatic, almost instinctive.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
At home, in my backyard, I shoot rag boxes. 18 x 18 inch. They are large enough that I don't shoot at the center of the box. Arrows have no problem hitting their mark. Maybe I should practice shooting at spots marked on the corners of the box. A training exercise designed to stop shooting at the center of a 3d. ????? I do have 1 3d deer target. Maybe an exercise of putting target stickers on strange, out of center places. Like high hip. Or maybe.... no stickers, and pick a spot each shot at strange locations. An exercise designed to gain confidence of "out of center"
 

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You have to separate the aiming from the releasing. As soon as your release is dictated by your site picture your in trouble. Gapping or instinctive it doesn't matter you can't pull the trigger based on what you see.

Matt
 

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IMO the most useful drill for consistency is walk backs. You see instinctive shooter shoot arrow after arrow after arrow at fixed distance practice. NOT GOOD. Blank bales and walk backs.

You are trying to train your right brain to control a release. You got to give it the comparative views so as to not confuse it. Seriously :)
 

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I started low, it gave me huge gaps. Then I spent almost a year shooting really high, like finger draped over my cheekbone high. It forced me to cant the bow to get my eye over the arrow which instigated right/left errant shots and really worried my shoulder and neck muscles. Now I seem to have found the happy medium anchor. Now I can get the back muscles back into the shot again for a much stronger release but the shaft being right there still lets me gunbarrel to almost the same extent as with the high anchor.

I spent most of the day today doing walkbacks on a 3D target. The only conscious aiming I do now is to place the tip of the arrow directly under my intended target and once that's done, as Rod Jenkins says, I let the guy in the back do his job. My only focus from that point on is my shot sequence.

LOL....And I shoot better at home too!
 

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I like to shoot at small targets on a big block. I like to use soda bottle caps. If you can pick it out of the large block target, picking a spot on a 3D gets easier. I also like to throw tennis balls and shoot from where you are standing. Different distances and angles makes for great 3D practice.


Sent from my RM-915_nam_usa_228 using Tapatalk
 

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You shoot well at home cause the shot never changes. Let me rephrase that to say that even if you move around and shoot your target from various distances and angles, your mind has already made that shot or several close enough to know where to place the bow. Also even with no conscious thought at all, I believe your subconcious counts the steps and knows the distance. This is why I used to throw my arrows out from the target, then purposely walk away and approach each from the side to mess with my mind. Even still standing anywhere from 30yds out my mind has a sight picture of my target and knows where my bow arm should be. I will tell you this, if you have any itch to try an aiming method, shooting a ton of instinctive will cause you TP. I'm fighting that now as my mind says the sight picture is right, let's send the arrow. My conscious says whoa, were not to that step in the shot sequence and the result is a fight within my brain. Instinctive is cool when your on, not so cool on those off days. If your not picking a spot on that 3d, your not focused or aiming. If you just look at the 3d as a back stop, of course you will center punch it. Joel explains why in MBB4.
 

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Instinctive shooting is not really the issue.
I've had the same 3D target/real animal thing happen.
When I started 3D I always shot for the kill.
Which is not where most 20 rings are.
So I had to learn where all those 20 rings were and learn to shoot at them instead of where you should shoot..
I took photos of all the 20 rings on all the 3D targets used locally and once I started shooting at them and no other part of the target, my scores went up a lot.
With animals I shoot for the heart and nothing else.
I learnt how to focus on my real target, not all the stuff surrounding it.
On my home targets I have a single black 2" dot on a white back ground that I visually transfer to everything I shoot at when I need to.
I'm telling ya' man, this whole thing is a mind game like no other.

John.
 

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some great comments, like John from NZ says. its a mind game, I believe that everyone is describing forms of TP. In the past I have spent two days with Rod and a day with Joel. You have to train your self to use the shot sequence. go thru each step and then when your at your anchor pick a SPOT and as Rod says pull to conclusion or as Joel says "KEEP PULLING KEEP PULLING.
I also think a clicker helps in some cases
 

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Instinctive shooting (by defination) means that in your shooting you're not using anything for a reference… That is, you "see" the intended target only and make no use of anything else to successfully engage it.

With no desire or inclination to change your shooting style, I'd say that there are a number of things to consider… Keeping it short n sweet, consider keeping consistent the coordination of consistent form held at a solid anchor with the focusing to a point. (you mentioned the "aim small hit small" in the first post)

I mention this as, IMO, it is possible to be a consistent form instinctive shooter… But (again just my opinion) most instinctive archers over accentuate the "seeing only the target" and way underestimate the consistency in shooting form… often not even reaching a consistent anchor. Good Luck! and consider working the bale.

Tom
 

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It is hard for me to accept "bad days". Shooting instinctive is like shooting 3 pointers in a basketball game. Sometimes your hot, sometimes not. I have pondered giving up instinctive because it is hard to accept not being consistent. A gapper probably, for the most part, is consistent in their scores. Or should I say "more so". I have tried aiming methods. But decided that my personal preferrence is that I want to shoot "instinctive", LOL, per my definition. I tell myself that the 3d is simply a backstop for the spot I wish to hit. But I know that my mind is releasing "at the 3D", rather than the spot I try to focus on. Funny how it works. Example, probably true for most, if I shoot at a 5inch circle, my group will be 3 times the size if I had shot at a 1/2 inch circle. This is the issue. How can you train your mind? The saying aim small hit small, aim big, hit big, we all know that, but when my "mind sights" settle in the center of that 3D, it releases. This presents a problem for hunting as well. Because I don't wish to shoot centered up, or 10 ring on a deer, but rather, low heart, just in case of the drop/load. So, I tell my mind that it is just a backstop for the point I want to hit.... but how do I get my mind to forget the 3d???? Any drills, mind games, disciplines, etc....... Surely we all could benifit to some degree.
This is so typical. We see it over and over, ad infinitum.
Persistent will power, to do anything and everything to avoid finally learning how to shoot the bow.
Note: This includes aiming.
The other alternative is to return to the wheel bow.
Let us know if you ever become willing to let go of old ideas and become ready to accept and implement correct advice and direction.
Your choice...
 

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Delta McKensie makes an inexpensive midsection 3D target that mounts with a peg in a hole inside the front leg section. Almost every shot causes it to pivot/rotate, forcing you to walk to a new spot for the next shot. I won't recommend it for the durability, I've had to re-foam the 10 ring twice since Christmas, but that rotation takes me all over the place on the range and gives me a new look every time.

As to instinctive, I don't like opening that can of worms but I that's how I started shooting or should I say, trying to shoot. My accuracy improved exponentially when I started mapping my gaps with each rig to see exactly why I was hitting where I was hitting.

There may be some great instinctive shooters and if you're one I'm happy for you but few come to mind. I had a guy at the last tournament ask me if I was shooting instinctive or gapping. When I replied "Yes" he got a funny look. I told I use whatever makes the point hit where I want it to hit and that anything done several thousand times becomes instinctive. He got a little huffy and said he was a totally instinctive shooter. I said "I know" but I left out the "that's why your scores are 30-40 points off the pace every weekend...."
 

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The reason Rod, Joel, or for that matter coach Lee teach pulling/expanding to conclusion is it mentally separates the aiming from the releasing.

These are two separate acts - where we get messed up is when we combine the two.

Here is how I run a shot

1 - assemble the shot and come to anchor - I am not aiming in any more than a general sense now - none of that burn a hole stuff from the get go. If you burn a hole from the get go your brain thinks the site pic is right before you even get to anchor.

2 - Aim - doesn't really matter how you aim but slow down and enjoy it. You have time - if you don't have time you are over bowed. If the aim ain't right LET DOWN if a purple bird flies over your left shoulder LET DOWN.

3 - CONSCIOUSLY think "ok let's finish this thing" and bring your shot to conclusion.

YOU need to decide to bring the shot to conclusion on your terms - anything else is target panic or the road to it.

This doesn't need to be a slow process once you learn to shoot but in the beginning it needs to be very slow and deliberate.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
This is so typical. We see it over and over, ad infinitum.
Persistent will power, to do anything and everything to avoid finally learning how to shoot the bow.
Note: This includes aiming.
The other alternative is to return to the wheel bow.
Let us know if you ever become willing to let go of old ideas and become ready to accept and implement correct advice and direction.
Your choice...
I don't wish to be argumentative, but you say this as if a right way and wrong way exists. Probably so in what I call "olympic style". I agree in one sense , "your choice". Your statement "learning how to shoot the bow" does have merit in the fact that learning all styles of archery is interesting, fun and informative. Something I would like for my sons to do. But... you seem to imply that everyone whom shoots without an aiming method is wrong. Why not go ahead and install a sight on your bow? Sure you guys have much to offer in way of advice. Starting with what has worked for you, apparently an aiming method. Which I realize is much more, proper draw, stance, aim, anchor, release, follow through, etc, under the umbrella of "archery". When I think of the word "archery" these things come to mind. But, I don't wish to shoot this way. Several debatable reasons. One, I want to hunt with as high a poundage as I can shoot comfortable, passed the weight of "aim comfortable". This, trying for a passthrough. Traditional shots, mine anyway, are mostly downward. Not having an exit causes them to bleed into the chest cavity rather than the ground. Dead is dead, but I prefer easy tracking. The ability to shoot out of form would seem like a shot not to be taken by an "olympic style" shooter, but is almost always the case from a tree stand. I could go on and on, but no need. I just wish to point out that some of us choose this style for reasons, and mostly, I have shot both, I just much more enjoy my style better. I will try to perfect my style.... and I suspect that there are some very good instinctive shooters on the tournament trail , shooting great scores. How do you tell them they are doing it wrong? Anyway, I am rambling, typical of me when I get rained out of work. You might be thinking, LOL, I did not ask for all this. But I enjoy discussion. I ponder the responses. And just in case it is taken as argumentative, rather than in the spirit of which I use, I'll not respond to this topic again [instinctive vs olympic style], giving anybody who wants, the last word. I may ask some questions, as usual regarding release methods, etc. This is why I come here, to learn from olympic shooters and to adapt some of their methods to my own.
 

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You asked how to deal with your inconsistencies and you were given the answer. If you continue down the road you are on you will continue to deal with it.

Having a shot sequence doesn't preclude instinctive aim, or for that matter canting the bow and crouching like G Fred, it just puts you in control of your shot. Until you are I control of your shot you will be inconsistent at best.

You are a hunter you owe it to the game you hunt to be the best shot you possibly can be.
 

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"and I suspect that there are some very good instinctive shooters on the tournament trail"

I doubt this, especially on a National level in IBO 3D. Most of those who have the buckles use an aiming method and and do not Hunch over and snap shoot.
 

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If it's help with your form you need could you post a video clip of several shots so we can check for differences between them?
 
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