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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
First associated the letter "J" with a "Rotational Draw"....cause you see a "J" is just fine right up until I get to the little hook on the end there where my string hand movement creeps slightly forward against the back of my jaw...which in turn causes me to lose ALL Back Tension...which again in turn?...causes me to start fishing for it to get the Back Tension...uhem..."back".....again....which in turns begats my "sawing wood" motion...which in turn...more often times than not?....results in what might best be described as a...."Mini-Snap-Shot" :(

So last night I was chuckling to myself as I tried to come up with a smoother, stronger, cleaner draw that didn't result in any hooking forward motion thereby yielding in my loss of Back Tension...which came to me in the form of what might best be described as a..."Reverse L Draw"...which I rapidly saw "AND FELT" the benefits of.

and oddly enough?...this evening I recieved a PM from a forum member who's desperately been trying to bust open my thick head in the past and in a short volley of PM's did something we rarely do....we TOTALLY agreed! LOL!

Now I'm not even close to having mastered this entirely yet (let alone ingraining it)...and this is just a real off-the-cuff (or should I say "Ceiling Fan" LOL!) vid of me attempting to explain, show and demonstrate which it is I speak of...so feel free to speak or critic freely...I'm all ears at the moment but can readily feel where this could easily become a game changer for me and maybe others might benefit from this minor alphabetical change of mindset.....hope you enjoy and L8R, Bill.

 

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Hello All
Jinks. if you have some spare time try this draw be it release or tab.

1.Hook the tab up to the bow string.

2. Turned your tab hand fingers knuckles to point at 10:O-clock

3. Draw back and slightly down

4.Now bring your tab hand up and split your jaw bone with your thumb and index finger. And raise your elbow.
The web of the tab hand is behind the jaw bone. Release hand slightly can be turned up. [ Later
 

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I am going to reinterate the clicker. If you are not performing the J draw properly, you will pull through the clicker before you get to anchor. This is an overdraw. Once you get to anchor, if you are not in the right position you will struggle to pull through. I was practicing with my clicker earlier tonight and am about to go out a practice some more. After a couple of sessions, I am starting to consistently draw onto the point, which makes expansion and release very easy. This is after investing a couple of months into clicker work last summer, and returning to it about a week ago. There is still no guarantee that you are getting into your back. You need to work on making sure you are getting the back tension. I had my son put his finger on my scapula and tell me how much I was moving his finger while I practiced approaches for engaging my back. I am using a Kisik Lee stretch band that allows you to set your draw length (point where the band quits stretching). I start with the band and then try to duplicate it with a light bow. Eventually, I will bridge back to my competition bow. The main thing is that you need to commit to whatever you are going to try. There a no quick fixes unless you are extraordinarily talented.
 

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I need to add that if you pull through the clicker on the way to full draw, you will be relaxing the back muscles as you complete your path to anchor (result of overdraw). That means your back muscles are going in the wrong direction and will need to be re-engaged in order to expand to release.
 
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With a clicked I get a bad taste.
One day you walk to the line. You have had your Wheaties and felt like you can lick the world.
Next shoot you walk to the line. And maybe the night before you ate to many pieces of pizza. Or was out with the boys.

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The clicker on first shoot went off like clock work. On second shoot you now are fighting it to go off.

First 6 targets your groups ae nice and tight. 2nd 6 spread out like hen
feathers.

Saw this at are range. He was a out town pro. I aproached him at break..
Said got something you might try after the shoot. He said lets here it.
now. I suggested to him to move his clicker back about 1/8 inch. And will tighten up the groups. ha went on to win the shoot.

For me I copied Vic Burger way. I used a mirror. And by doing so.Never become a rhythm shooter. [ Later

Ps.a click from a lighter will bring on a false release from a tense archer. [ Smile Try it U will see. [ Later
 

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I am referring to using a clicker as a feedback device for form training. That is different than using it in competition. The clicker tells you things that you cannot see, even on video.

This is the setup I am practicing with.

 

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Hank, I use a playing card with a hole in the middle and tape on the arrow shaft with the bare bow.
Dan
Cool, I would like to see a picture. Are you able to shoot the arrow, or are you just drawing to the playing card?

That sounds like a good solution if you are concerned about damaging the bow by mounting a clickety click or cricket clicker. This might work for Jinx.

P.S. for longbow practice I took my old Samick SLB and put a clickety click on it. I use it as a form bow. It is the same draw weight as my Falco Trophy Carbon (see Avatar) that I use for competition when shooting the longbow class.
 

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I am left to assume you are referring to me since I have the video where I talk about the J draw. Folks above have clearly stated what you are doing wrong. You are over drawing and then coming back. Instead of trying to redefine the procedure, try to perfect the procedure. As they said the clicking will keep you from pulling through...or rather tell you when you've pulled past where you should, but if you pull to the clicker then go straight into your face again you're circumnavigating the correct procedure. You need to teach your body to draw to anchor. The J just helps you to engage your back front he start of the draw and keep the tension on on the back the entire time.
 

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Hello
With a clicked I get a bad taste.
One day you walk to the line. You have had your Wheaties and felt like you can lick the world.
Next shoot you walk to the line. And maybe the night before you ate to many pieces of pizza. Or was out with the boys.

========================
The clicker on first shoot went off like clock work. On second shoot you now are fighting it to go off.

First 6 targets your groups ae nice and tight. 2nd 6 spread out like hen
feathers.

Saw this at are range. He was a out town pro. I reproached him at break..
Said got something you might try after the shoot. He said lets here it.
now. I suggested to him to move his clicker back about 1/8 inch. And will tighten up the groups. ha went on to win the shoot.

For me I copied Vic Burger way. I used a mirror. And by doing so.Never become a rhythm shooter. [ Later

Ps.a click from a lighter will bring on a false release from a tense archer. [ Smile Try it U will see. [ Later
A clicker is certainly not "easy" to shoot. It takes time and practice, BUT if you learn to shoot it then you will certainly have an advantage. Tim Strickland once told me that a clicker gives you more of an advantage than string walking and being able to shoot point on. It's not easy to master but it's powerful once you do.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I am left to assume you are referring to me since I have the video where I talk about the J draw. Folks above have clearly stated what you are doing wrong. You are over drawing and then coming back. Instead of trying to redefine the procedure, try to perfect the procedure. As they said the clicking will keep you from pulling through...or rather tell you when you've pulled past where you should, but if you pull to the clicker then go straight into your face again you're circumnavigating the correct procedure. You need to teach your body to draw to anchor. The J just helps you to engage your back front he start of the draw and keep the tension on on the back the entire time.
Jimmy...first things first?...Thank you for your service...welcome back...nice to see you posting again and please know that you, your skill set and your video's have always served as an inspiration to me...now that said?....

Your assumption is wrong as while I've heard droves of folks speak of the "J-Rotational Draw"...(and here's a link that popped up first on a casual search of many examples where it's being openly discussed)...

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1831536

and while I full well knew you did in fact produce a video of the proper execution and explanation of the J-Rotational Draw?...I had no clue that you were the inventor...but if you are staking claim to such?....then yes...I guess I am.

Because I'm of the opinion that while the "J-Rotational" deal might be a great tool for coaching coaches?...it didn't meld well at all with my body/mind and I found that a straight back drawing motion seems to work best for me.

Sorry you took offense...welcome back and Happy Shooting, Bill.
 

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Bill - I'm not back - still in Afghanistan, just checking it. I certainly don't stake claim to "inventing the idea" I don't recall every hearing it anywhere, so maybe several people arrived at the same conclusion.

I'll leave it alone. I think where you and I diverge is that I figure if thousands of archers over decades and decades have narrowed down what makes for the most consistent way of shooting then it's up to me to find a way to capitalizing on the wisdom of their work. Thus I have tried to master those techniques - never have but continue to try. You seem to be more nonconventional in your approach to archery. Hope you don't take offense to that. Just an observation.

I don't buy into the idea that, "everyone just has to find what works for them." You can get away with varying some things, but optimal success comes from consistency and optimal consistency comes from proven shooting form.

I certainly didn't take offense to your post. I was just owning up to the video I produced that uses the J rotational draw.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Thanks Jimmy...as usual you're a very "stand-up" kind of guy and we've come to expect nothing less.

And while our approach may be different?...doesn't mean we have to have differences...you certainly have far more time, work and effort logged into what you've accomplished...but I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel here as there's always more ways than one to skin a cat...that said?...there are also some very well known and extremely respected coaches who champion the "Straight Back Draw" with a preset and locked bow arm...(as opposed to the J-Rotational Draw)...citing such things as...

1. It's the shortest distance from point "A" too anchor.

2. Results in far less overall bow movement (a desirable feature when live game is your target)

but most importantly for me?...

3. Seems to be the most effective drawing motion when it comes to...

Maintaining "MY" Back Tension.

and I personally find that last one to be extremely true...for me...then again?...maybe the reason the J-Rotational doesn't seem to work out very well for me at all while it works well for many others?...is because my right shoulder was crushed in a sport bike accident about 15 years ago...totalled a Kawi ZRX into the side of a minivan that pulled out in front of me...no broken bones but enough soft tissue damage to warrant several months of pain meds and the shoulder hasn't been the same since...the good news?...tomorrow?..I'll have 4 years Clean & Sober again! LOL!

Now...Lay low, keep your head down and focus on what you're doing there so we can see you back here again and hopefully soon! L8R, Bill.
 

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The rotational draw can vary, depending on how much pretension you put on the string, or dont put on the string. If you note, a lot of guys using it do a short predraw, then pause. This all gets engrained and your body will learn to hit anchor over time without drawing to far back, then creeping forward to anchor. I agree a clicker will show this, you cannot trick it. Also keep in mind that regardless of your physical condition, going to a rotational draw is using different muscles then you likely were using and for that reason your not conditioned to doing it right. You will induce drawing with your arm and that adds to over drawing. This is another reason so many drop weight to "get it right". Another thing to consider is your likely overthinking the movement of the "J" Jinks.
Now where many will agree or disagree, I dont buy into maintaning or loosing back tension. Let me clarify that. At full draw and on target, if you "think" about pulling through the shot and get that arrow to come back, even if slightly, you are engaging your back muscles to do that. Doing that you will improve your accuracy, release, and focus on the right things.
Good to see you posting again Jinks.
 
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Also wasnt able to see your video, but can now. Your using LOTS of arm to finish your draw, watch your shoulder movement, or lack of when you do your L draw Jinks. Let me give you some advice, forget about shapes of draws, just work on shooting the bow and keeping it fun. I think the proper draw will just come to you. Ive been down this road, its frustrating and gets you thinking about the wrong things during your shot.
 
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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Kenn...I just took a several month break from form work and just played with instinctive/snap...but I'm feeling stronger and more relaxed now so I feel like I'm ready to get back to business again...but up front here?...I feel I'm going to need a strong focus placed upon the process...at least until I get the new me up and running. LOL!

So...step by step...aspect by aspect...sifting through the bazillion opinions that work well for others and finding what exactly works best for me...both physically and mentally...and sticking with it.
 

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If you're gonna make these types of sweeping overhauls then a much lighter bow will serve you better. It looks like you're fighting yourself. How's the release feel?
 

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there are also some very well known and extremely respected coaches who champion the "Straight Back Draw" with a preset and locked bow arm..
Who precisely?

-Grant
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Who precisely?

-Grant
Precisely?...how about just a good clue? LOL!

Viper1 out.

To wit?...

"The straight line draw from a preset bow arm, while out of vogue this week, is still the most efficient and second safest way to get to anchor. It keeps the shoulder joint snug and should require the least effort. (It's the shortest distance between twp points thing...) It's also to most difficult for a targeted animal to spot in the field, since all the movement is way from the "target". "
 
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