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Discussion Starter #1
there are two aspects to ILF that poeple enjoy.

Interoperability
and
adjustability.

As many of you have read, there comes a point where a design concept wont run down a universal path, where you need to step away from the norms.

We think we have met the fork in the road. but its not all bad.

the Hex7 limb doesnt like inline risers where the riser has little to no riser deflex.
so there are some risers with high deflex values, and one such riser is the DAS 17".

What do you think of this idea:

We make a ILF style fitting. except we make the fittings and limb slot an odd size to clash with standard ILF risers...
We make a ILF style riser to fit the new size limb hardware.
What we then could do is make DAS fittings and say a limb bolt for the DAS riser to accept the Hex7 limb? (meaning compatability with a adjustment kit)

The complication is the 25" risers which we think will be more accomodating to the hex7 design, Mixing compatability issues for some risers and not others gets complicated...
What works for one, causes a headache for another.

just a thought, putting it out there for discussion. (we dont have all the answers, so maybe there are some thoughts out there that are better than ours that will add to the mixing pot, to come up with a better idea)

Adjustability or interoperability?

or do we complicate the fit to make it "informed" users only?


Whats your thoughts!
 

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Whats your thoughts!
My thought is that either a design lends itself to universal application or it doesn't. You can't serve two masters.

Just as you like to push the envelope in terms of design, many archers like to push the envelope in terms of application.

If the limb butt geometry is the same as an ILF limb butt, the fitting the limbs are shipped with won't matter a lick. They'll be swapped out faster than you can shake a riser at them.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
i think you have missed my point Sylvan.
I can change drill bits. from a 3/8 drill to a 9.8mm or a 9.1mm
makes no odds to me. We make our own metalwork, so making it non standard is just as easy with a CNC lathe.

Try fitting a limb with a 10mm slot in the end of the limb to a 9.5 or 3/8" limb bolt.

or i can make some limb bolts that fit certain compatable risers?

So i can serve 2 masters. its just i can choose which master i wish to work for

having all your manufacturing inhouse, gives you total flexability.

we already supply oversize dovetails to accomodate oversize or worn risers
 

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Didn't miss your point at all, I think you missed mine. If the geometry is the same (or even close) as ILF with a different fitting, it will be used on a variety of ILF risers. If anyone knows that to be true, it's the folks here.

If you don't want the limbs used on a variety of riser shapes, lengths, and degrees of deflex or reflex, you might better make them proprietary, or at least different enough to prevent it.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
If you don't want the limbs used on a variety of riser shapes, lengths, and degrees of deflex or reflex, you might better make them proprietary, or at least different enough to prevent it.
thats my question.
 

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Hoyt tried that recently, a lot of people complained. Good luck though, some here will understand your reasoning, but some won't.
 

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I think I know what you were getting at, and that was my point.

"Try fitting a limb with a 10mm slot in the end of the limb to a 9.5 or 3/8" limb bolt."

How hard is a limb bolt with standard threads and a larger or smaller shank?
 

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Discussion Starter #8
quite easy on a HAAS SL10 lathe.
12 tool turret. wobblebroach for the hex heads and bar puller can spit out the threaded limb bolt with ease once programmed.

20hp spindle makes easy work of stainless steel.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Hoyt tried that recently, a lot of people complained. Good luck though, some here will understand your reasoning, but some won't.
i think people struggle when you dont get a difference in bow performance.
but when you get a set if limbs that pull 1 pound per inch back at anchor on a bow up to 50lbs in draw weight.
opposed to the 2lbs per inch rule. some might accept the differences.
where as the 990 ilf vs f4 formula. where was the benefit there?

and what was the real rational behind the lock in.

we are saying the bow wont shoot as well. actually in a real world situation. not sure folks would complain then?

(possibly)
 

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You can't really get around the fact that speed (trajectory) rules 3D. MOST of the 3D shooters shot bows (compound) that have no compatibility and a lot of adjustability.

These bows are also by far the largest block of hunting bows.

I would give up compatibility but not adjustability. I was shooting Sky and Groves risers before ILF.

In the end I want a pair of limbs I can put on a wooden riser and a metal riser. Wooden riser for fast moving hunting (rabbit, squirrel and pigs). Metal riser for 3D and field. I want to have the preload adjustment on both risers
 

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quite easy on a HAAS SL10 lathe.
12 tool turret. wobblebroach for the hex heads and bar puller can spit out the threaded limb bolt with ease once programmed.

20hp spindle makes easy work of stainless steel.
So even if you made the slot in the limb butt a different size, how hard would it be to use it on an ILF limb? If the slot is larger, just use a collar over the limb bolt. If the slot is smaller, reduce the shank diameter. If you change the position of the fitting hole, now it's proprietary.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
You can't really get around the fact that speed (trajectory) rules 3D. MOST of the 3D shooters shot bows (compound) that have no compatibility and a lot of adjustability.

These bows are also by far the largest block of hunting bows.

I would give up compatibility but not adjustability. I was shooting Sky and Groves risers before ILF.

In the end I want a pair of limbs I can put on a wooden riser and a metal riser. Wooden riser for fast moving hunting (rabbit, squirrel and pigs). Metal riser for 3D and field. I want to have the preload adjustment on both risers
trying to work out what compromises and solutions to put in place.
to make the dovetail slot 0.75mm bigger is do'able. and make a limb bolt a fraction smaller would ensure the risers we dont make these parts for dont get used.
the down side are hoyt risers where deflex changes but use the same dowel system.
 

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trying to work out what compromises and solutions to put in place.
to make the dovetail slot 0.75mm bigger is do'able. and make a limb bolt a fraction smaller would ensure the risers we dont make these parts for dont get used.
the down side are hoyt risers where deflex changes but use the same dowel system.
How does this stop anyone from swapping out dovetail fittings and limb bolts? People do that every day.
 

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I agree with rusty. Maybe a HEX 6.5 that is ILF compatible, and the HEX7s only fit your own risers. That is if your metal risers are close enough to being ready.
 

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If it's not ILF compatible then make it truly not compatible - your own METAL riser with a DAS connection but make sure it's not compatible with other DAS risers.

That being said as much as I love the hex limbs I'm not sure I would personally spend 1500-2000 on a proprietary riser and limbs.

Matt
 

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Does this mean that you have made a set of ILF limbs and found that they don't work on other risers or are you still in the computer program stage? If you have made them and put them on the DAS did you get similar results to the Covert Hunter?
Chris.
 

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I'm the opposite to Rusty. I'd want to be able to use my existing risers. I'd trade adjust-ability for fit.

If that wasn't a runner I'd be looking for a cheap riser to be available to use the limbs. By all means have a fancier one also.

How similar are tiller bolts across manufacturers/models? Because if there are enough that are similar (to say 3 size variations) then could extra-long tiller bolts provide the necessary deflex by swapping them out?

Alternatively, could a coupling be devised. One end, obviously ILF, the other end could be a bolt hole. That would stop a lot of messing trying to make the limbs fit.
Maybe a coupling that would join Black Douglas limbs to ILF and cut down the number of types of limb butts to be made.

That being said as much as I love the hex limbs I'm not sure I would personally spend 1500-2000 on a proprietary riser and limbs.

Matt
Agree. If you could just buy a Covert Hunter, in 25".
 

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Discussion Starter #18
let me see if i can explain the constraints.

the concept sits with a lower and lower BH.

Long risers accept lower BH because they have high BH to start with.

So yeah, they are quite flexable in that sense.

short risers on the other hand cant accomodate the lower BH, and this in turn means that the limbs want to wound right in.

winding them in, means that the deflex is reduced, as in everything has moved towards the grip.
but this gives problems in that they have too short a BH, and you will slap your hand.
so the way to avoid this is to move the grip position forward from the limb pads giving you a bit of room to breath again.
this room is also one of the best forms of deflex.
in that the limb pads are on the stable side of the grip.

so we need short risers with more deflex, to allow the design to work.

longer risers we think are safe, its just the inline little ones that are troublesome

The next advantage with the grip being forward is that it means the bow is simples to string.

how does that sound?
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Does this mean that you have made a set of ILF limbs and found that they don't work on other risers or are you still in the computer program stage? If you have made them and put them on the DAS did you get similar results to the Covert Hunter?
Chris.


(here is how far we are with risers, filling in the red and yellow bits)

but untill then, will still be learning the skills involved in making CNC Ali risers.

If your know your CNC milling, CAD and FEA, its ALOT of skills to develope.
and we are working on it.
 

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Is the point of making them compatible with the DAS to keep the cost down?
Ie I don't have to buy an 800+ dollar proprietary riser?

Can you guys make an inexpensive "hunter" riser that meets the price point of the das if the above is the case?

How about some kind of gigantic limb butt to establish the geometry needed? What happens when limb buts get really heavy?

Include a warning with the limbs, on the website and on a hidden part of the limb butt. ..WARNING compatibility issues. Check riser compatibility list and setup instructions at www.borderbows.com/hex7compatibility ;)

If people want to make a frankenbow out of them then I say its on them not on you. Limb bolts binding in the dovetail on a standard ILF isn't the fault of the manufacturer, it's the fault of the uneducated.

Also, I wouldn't worry too much about pleasing people who have no intention of buying from you in the first place.

Things don't need to be idiot proof ; they need to be well defined. It's possible to insert a standard Ilf limb and have the bushing riding on top of the pocket.. That's not a design flaw; it's the user doing something wrong.
 
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