[Remote]

What amazing perfectionist on here.

If you are referring to me, thanks a lot, but I am far from perfect, lest of all amazing. Just doing my personal best to reduce, rather than increase, the chances of wounding animals.

Thankfully Hill wrote a book showing us how not to hunt, in that regard. Some level of moral disgust at pot shots on moving animals at huge distances, spraying "wood in the air", is a healthy response. Great to see some in this thread agree.

Hunting is ill served by cynical and reckless disregard for animals.

 

[Grantmac]

Hill started the accuracy by volume technique and set the sport back decades.

 

[Grizz67]

Hill started the accuracy by volume technique and set the sport back decades.

Really, thought accuracy by volume was European war tactic for centuries

 

[fooie]

definitely don't watch Hunt Primitive on youtube. He'll just stand over a wounded animal in pain talking about primitive while I'm yelling "use a knife already!" at my laptop.

 

[Grantmac]

Really, thought accuracy by volume was European war tactic for centuries

Sure but they weren't doing it against chained elephants while the camera was rolling.

 

[Tom M]

Might as well join in. WHO determined 20 yards was the max effective range for a trad bow? What was the criteria?

 

[Grizz67]

Might as well join in. WHO determined 20 yards was the max effective range for a trad bow? What was the criteria?

W

Might as well join in. WHO determined 20 yards was the max effective range for a trad bow? What was the criteria?

Well I always heard that half your draw weight was your effective Max range.

 

[Frednugent]

Might as well join in. WHO determined 20 yards was the max effective range for a trad bow? What was the criteria?

I don’t think I saw anybody mention 20 was the max effective range?? I’m sure he could shoot quite accurately out to 30,40,50 yards, but I’m also not naive enough to believe he was consistently putting groups down there at 80+ yards, a distance it seems he shot at many animals from.

 

[dragonheartII]

If you read further you will also find out that Howard Hill recognized in his younger days he was shooting too far at game. He limited to 40 yards. The days of Howard Hill, Fred Bear was a time of a "proving ground" in history that a bow and arrow was a effective sport hunting tool.

 

[DDD]

Might as well join in. WHO determined 20 yards was the max effective range for a trad bow? What was the criteria?

I will be testing my 35-40 lb bows and I can add joules to the speed test?
DDD

 

[Phil Magistro]

Not to stir the pot but I never understood why some folks will limit themselves to close distance like 15 yards. While I don’t shoot with sights or an aiming system, there is no difference to me shooting out to 25 yards. After 25 the trajectory of the arrow comes into play which means I’m not always assured the first shot will be the correct elevation. Most of the time it is but not all the time.

So my question is why do some folks limit themselves to close range -15 yards or so- and, if they are accurate at 15, why are they not accurate at 20?

 

[Grizz67]

Not to stir the pot but I never understood why some folks will limit themselves to close distance like 15 yards. While I don’t shoot with sights or an aiming system, there is no difference to me shooting out to 25 yards. After 25 the trajectory of the arrow comes into play which means I’m not always assured the first shot will be the correct elevation. Most of the time it is but not all the time.

So my question is why do some folks limit themselves to close range -15 yards or so- and, if they are accurate at 15, why are they not accurate at 20?

18 yards is my sweet spot..
I never miss with my set up.. But closer and longer than 18 my accuracy decreases

 

[GilV]

I just started reading this book after seeing multiple recommendations across different forums. I’m only around 40 pages in and I must say the story telling is very well done, but how many animals has this guy wounded? First few stories and he has shot a Buffalo from horse back on the run, a bear at over 120 yards, an antelope on the run hitting the wrong animal, another antelope on the run at 70 yards, and now an elk at 180 yards.

Post this on any website today and you’ll be the most hated man in the world for a few hours.

I mean don’t get me wrong, some of these shots are incredible for the equipment he is using, however extremely unethical and leads me to wonder how many more of these shots he tried without success.

I agree, but you have to put that in context of the time when it was done.

Back then there wasn't as much sentiment towards animals as there are today. They felt that God gave us dominion over the animals for food and work.

Probably most people had farm animals. Even in cities they probably had chickens. From young ages they would slaughter chickens, goats, sheep and cows for food. There were different sensibilities.

Harold Hill was born in 1899 in Alabama. The book was published in 1956.

When I was a kid (born in 1954) it was the same way. How many of you raise animals, feed them and care for them, then one day go out and kill them for food in your backyard? When you grow up doing that you think differently, so you can't condemn them back then, because it was an accepted way of life that is hard to understand these days.

There was also more machismo back then.

 

[longbowguy]

Well,,,there has been a lot of discussion on ethics 100 years ago versus now. Not very productive or useful.

Let me talk about accuracy. Now all of those early greats aimed mostly instinctively/intuitively, whatever you call it, or something close to it. I have taught it to many and won many championships, so I feel confident in offering a few opinions. I will discuss them as if they are absolutes, which they are not, but they are my experience and opinions.

My experience is that most adult men can quickly learn to shoot accurately, wiothout consicous aiming, at 5, 10, 15 yards. 20 comes fairly quickly after. This is akin to the finger pointing skill we learned by first or second grade. We can do a lot of sports with this without concscious thought. Now if we step back a bit, and pay attention, most of us can extend this skill back to 23-25 yards. Then it breaks down.

At that point I suggest my pupils change to a different aiming method. To skip 30 yards and step back to 45 or 50. At those distances your bowhand and arrow will need to rise enough to bring the point of your arrow to near your line of sight. Fred Bear said you would be a fool not to aim with it, right in front of your face. So switch to gap aiming.

My point-on range is 52 yards. At that distance I would be confident shooting at a target, a 3D figure, a living elk,caribou, zebra, milk cow or burro. I would not take that shot but I could.

OK, what about 30 or 35 yards? Well, they were hard in this traditional style. I started every day at my club range warming up at 30 yards, shooting the course, and cooling down at 30 yards. Eventually I learnt it, instinctively,intuitively/subconsciously/ whatever you call it. With a bit of practice I have been able to maintain that skill for years.

The main thing to understand is that instinctive archery is a short-range proposition. Quick, intuitive, uncannily accurate and easy, but only at short hunting range.

Use it appropriately. You would not use a hammer to do the job of a hatchet, nor a chainsaw. For its job, instinctive aiming is the best, sometimes uncannily accurate. - lbg

 

[pavan]

I quit early today, it got loud out there. However, I did let a dandy buck pass. He did not seem to notice me, while being distracted by an approaching combine. Due to a right hand injury I was shooting left handed. Close to 25 yards, that would have put the crown of ferrule just under his knees. Yes, I draw the point to my finger and secondary aim like Hill when shooting left handed over 20 yards. I drew, aimed, thought about it, let down. Drew again, and thought, 'dang combine and unpicked corn field', and I didn't want want anyone accusing me of recklessly spraying arrows around like Howard Hill. Just kidding, I have seen the anti Hill stuff for over 50 years, I ignore the 'holier than righteous' comments. Dealing with the farm country realities, I did not want to risk the buck going down in front of that combine.

 

[pavan]

If you read further you will also find out that Howard Hill recognized in his younger days he was shooting too far at game. He limited to 40 yards. The days of Howard Hill, Fred Bear was a time of a "proving ground" in history that a bow and arrow was a effective sport hunting tool.

Today's experts would like to think that they are superior to all things Hill. When they refer to Hill's shooting they are only repeating crap that someone else typed. When dog barks, they all bark. They all claim they know because they saw someone shoot bad with a longbow, so no accurate shots can be made with a longbow. It is the cynical , 'crows are black, so all black is crow,' logic. Unfounded prejudice is common in archery, it is easier to do than reading a book.

 

[DDD]

I'd reather spend my better time reading Larry Hatfield hunting stories.
DDD

 

[BenMaher]

It is a very well written book. Not just skilled as an archer but as an author two.
Granted, some of the practices seem flippant by todays standards. So do lots of things in life . And yes the filming stuff leaves a bad taste in your mouth .
Judging his shooting technique as spray and pray or similar seems unfair IMHO . There are way too many first hand accounts often from people still living of his incredible shooting ability that to infer otherwise seems a bit off .
I have killed a lot of animals with a longbow past 30 - 40 yards. Not shots I would take these days , even if i am a better archer than yesterday.

Intention is everything. I dont think Hill, nor Bear , nor Swinhart intended to do anything but take game as cleanly as possible and yes their methods often don't sit as well today as they likely did way back when - But referring as "sicko" seems a bit rough.

Maybe I have a soft spot for Hill and those old timers who paved the way.

 

[BenMaher]

My kind of 'adventure' is not spraying arrows at animals, pot shots. Again, that is sicko stuff. Animals feel pain. They fear death, just as we do. How do I know? I have killed a lot of animals, and quite often with a knife. I have looked into their eyes and heard them. Be accurate, be swift, or not at all. Do it because you intend to eat them or rid the land of them, not to make sport of their suffering. Get it over and done with.

Id suggest the people bow hunt because they enjoy the whole process , and hunting with trad gear even more so given the restrictions with the tackle we use - going on the premise above its head shots from a centerfire rifle at close range only from now on then

 

[Remote]

Id suggest the people bow hunt because they enjoy the whole process , and hunting with trad gear even more so given the restrictions with the tackle we use - going on the premise above its head shots from a centerfire rifle at close range only from now on then

I would not be so absolutist. There is a big difference between a carefully placed shot to the best of your ability, and putting "wood in the air" in the hope of hitting something on the run.

And yes, I also think filming and shooting chained animals is morally bankrupt. It is good we see it that way today.

I read that book as a kid - I was a Hill devotee. He is a good writer.