Trad Talk Forums banner
1 - 20 of 31 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,516 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
My mantra for good shooting is. "You can't trigger your shot based on sight picture " yet it occurred to me today that subconsciously we are doing this to the Nth degree.

My shot runs like this I aim and once I'm happy with it I start expanding while floating the spot.

I'm pretty steady but I still have a float yet I can hit a quarter at 20 yards (no not every time) so as I am expanding my little lizard brain is timing the float and releases at the perfect time. That has to be what's happening but it still boggles the mind.

Same thing has to be going on with the compound guys shooting back tension releases - you can't hold the x at 20 yards something has to be timing that float.

Matt


---------------------------------------------------

Team Montana - we are coming for your quarters ;-)
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
2,773 Posts
Matt:
Do you shoot buffalo guns? Sounds like it. I have done that, iron sights at half a mile.

I believe that for finest accuracy what you describe is the best way. Float the sight picture while increasing the pressure, until the shot goes off. Surprise, surprise! Unless the lizard brain decides otherwise.

And you are right that the back tension release boys can still punch one off. Actually I use the image of a back tension release sometimes in practicing my release. Trying for a surprise.

But there have been times when the shot occurred while I was clearly aimed off target, with bow, rifle and pistol. But when I got to the target I found old lizard brain had pulled it in at the last microsecond. That is not how I try to do it, but I will take it if it happens. - lbg
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,389 Posts
Matt this is how I'm aiming now, but I'm letting my subconcious set the gap, where as I believe your SW point on? Either way I call it riding the float and until it happens to you, you don't know what your missing. :D Glad it's working for you!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,828 Posts
Matt, all this talk about blank bale has me working more on aiming as I am expanding. Well not really expanding per say. What I have been doing lately is: once I get inside the bow I try to relax a bit as I start aiming. I bring the tip of the arrow in from right to left. I am right handed. Focusing looking thru the tip to the spot. Just as I get to the spot, it's now just to the left of the spot. I transfer my focus to the spot. I expand to release.

I got this from a pro using back tension release.

I am not trying to time it. Either. I read somewhere that it was un-natural to hold still. So why try?
Dan
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
53 Posts
OK DDD you say "I transfer my focus to the spot" I believe that its impossible to focus on more that one thing..so we go thru our shot sequence... anchor good...gap set...now I focus only on the spot nothing else..just the spot..then its keep pulling...keep pulling..works for me most of the time..ie..when I do everything correctly..this what the great compound shots do..the only difference between us and them is equipment...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
720 Posts
I can buy it...ever reach the "point of no return" in your release and you know the shot picture is ever so slightly off but it's like the brain sends a subtle in-shot adjustment to the bow arm/hand tension and you get a good result anyway? Sort of like the GPS in my car (aka the "b***h in the box"). When I purposely ignore her instructions, she just immediately recalculates and politely redirects my course....unlike my wife who would scream "why can't your dumb a** do what I tell ya"? I think the archery center of the brain is like that on a sunconscious level, lol!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,516 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Matt, all this talk about blank bale has me working more on aiming as I am expanding. Well not really expanding per say. What I have been doing lately is: once I get inside the bow I try to relax a bit as I start aiming. I bring the tip of the arrow in from right to left. I am right handed. Focusing looking thru the tip to the spot. Just as I get to the spot, it's now just to the left of the spot. I transfer my focus to the spot. I expand to release.

I got this from a pro using back tension release.

I am not trying to time it. Either. I read somewhere that it was un-natural to hold still. So why try?
Dan
Dan

I agree I'm just striving for relaxed balance at anchor not a ridged hold. It seems the more relaxed I am the smaller the float.

Matt

---------------------------------------------------

Team Montana - we are coming for your quarters ;-)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
996 Posts
I am noticing at the blank bale, that I need to be somewhat on target once I start to expand towards release. Being dead on target is not as important as having a relaxed posture and focusing on maintaining back extension and pulling through the shot. If I don't feel it once I am at that point in the shot sequence I am training myself to let down. But it's SO hard to let down once I am at that point.

Anyway, I think it's more important to have everything in the shot feeling just right at this point and just let the subconscious fine tune the aim while the conscious mind is focusing on back tension, a clean release, and conclusion of the shot. It seems to always result in a better shot result.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,099 Posts
The subconscious part of your aim does not have any doubt its doesn't know how. The conscious part of your aiming system however totally knows how to doubt. The trouble I have is when I let the conscious part take over.
Gary
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,366 Posts
Matt, if that's your "mantra" you surly don't have a lizard brain. I suspect you don't know what a "mantra' is.

A mantra according to Webster is "a hymn or portion of text...chanted or intoned as an incantation or prayer." If you can chant, "You can't trigger your shot based on sight picture " while you're going through your sequence, your a genius not a lizard brain.

My mantra is "kill" which I repeat or chant as I go through my shot sequence. Read the book "Free Throws" by Dr. Tom Amberry, I guarantee you will change your sequence and shoot with a mantra. He sank 2750 free throws in a row with out a miss. Took him 8 hours and the only reason he quit was the gym was closing. He had 8 scorers to verify the world record. He was 72 years old at the time.

Bowmania

PS. Sorry, this is kinda off topic.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,399 Posts
I think think the idea of your subconscious triggering your shot at the right moment is part of it.

I also think that part of it is simply statistics. If you could analyze your float you could break down the percentage of time spent in each region of the float. I've read that for most people the float is somewhat in the shape of a figure eight or oval. It's probably safe to assume that for most people the float is larger than we would like and travels outside the boundary of a "good shot". Being human and having doubt like Gary said we worry about, and notice more, the time periods when the shot looks "off", even though in reality it's "on" a lot more than it's off.

The smaller the float relative to your desired target the easier it is to relax and let the shot happen.

That's the way it was explained to me as I was learning to shoot small-bore rifles, float the x in your sight or scope, slow even trigger squeeze, and let the shot go where it may. Odds are it will go where you want because that's actually where you are aiming the most. It became increasingly more difficult to do as the position varied and the area covered by the float increased.

I'm assuming a lot of similarities between rifle and archery but it's not a perfect analogy since a rifle does have a wonderful mechanical trigger as opposed to having to hold the string. I think the basics are the same though, it comes to accepting the float and commitment to letting the shot happen. Avoid the conscious trigger you originally mentioned and work to reduce the range of the float. At the top of any shooting game there are some whose float is probably close to contained if not completely inside their desired target...wish it were me...lol.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,828 Posts
Dan

I agree I'm just striving for relaxed balance at anchor not a ridged hold. It seems the more relaxed I am the smaller the float.

Matt

---------------------------------------------------

Team Montana - we are coming for your quarters ;-)
That's what I am now working on now.

If I let the tip float I pull the shot right slightly as I expand to release. I think the 2mm explain why I was on at 20 yards and off 3-4" at 30 yards.

I was watching a video of coach Brown, think, of GB. In two different segments he said to get in side the bow, with good bone alignment, you can relax. I had forgotten this from my compound days. He then said to not focus on the sight but only the target. That part made me realize. That I was doing it wrong and on top of that I had instructed the 6 grade kids at science camp to do it his way, sort of.

Some of the right handed kids, when viewed from behind aimed left and shot left. At first I thought it was the bow setup that was on loan. But some of the other kids shot center only high. After 100 kids I came to think about this more. So the other parent and myself shot the kids bow. Lol. Sure enough we both hit left. Why. We and the kids followed the instruction given,"point the tip of the arrow at the center of the target".

After Five shots I moved the tip just right and looked at the gold. Arrow landed bullseye. The next arrow I didn't shoot I just, well I have to say it's pretty easy to relax with a kids bow, which by the way was the point coach Brown brought out in the video, and expanded which naturally pulled the shot over.

Well now what to tell the kid. To much information, right. Wrong. The one's that did all the setup right but hit left, I instructed to first point their left hand index finger at the center of the target and then simply replace that finger point with the arrow tip. It worked.

When I got home I had to figure out why was this possible? I simply instructed them to point just right of the spot.

Or, It clearly show that POA can be off if you suffer from near sighteness.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocular_dominance
Ocular dominance, sometimes called eye dominance or eyedness,[1] is the tendency to prefer visual input from one eye to the other.[2] It is somewhat analogous to the laterality of right or left handedness; however, the side of the dominant eye and the dominant hand do not always match.[3] This is because both hemispheres control both eyes, but each one takes charge of a different half of the field of vision, and therefore a different half of both retinas. There is thus no direct analogy between "handedness" and "eyedness" as lateral phenomena.

Approximately two-thirds of the population is right-eye dominant and one-third left-eye dominant;[1][4][5][6] however in a small portion of the population neither eye is dominant. Dominance does appear to change depending upon direction of gaze[2][7] due to image size changes on the retinas.[8] There also appears to be a higher prevalence of left-eye dominance in those with Williams-Beuren syndrome,[9] and possibly in migraine sufferers as well.[10] Eye dominance has been categorized as "weak" or "strong";[11] highly profound cases are sometimes caused by amblyopia or strabismus.

In those with anisometropic myopia (i.e. different amounts of nearsightedness between the two eyes), the dominant eye has typically been found to be the one with more myopia.[12][13]

Contents [hide]
1 Importance
2 Determination
3 Treatment
4 See also
5 References

Importance[edit]In normal binocular vision there is an effect of parallax, and therefore the dominant eye is the one that is primarily relied on for precise positional information. This may be especially important in sports which require aim, such as archery, darts or shooting sports.It has been asserted that cross-dominance (in which the dominant eye is on one side and the dominant hand is on the other) is advantageous in sports requiring side-on stances (e.g. baseball, cricket, golf);[14] however, studies within the last 20 years have shown this not to be the case. In a 1998 study of professional baseball players, hand-ocular dominance patterns did not show an effect on batting average or ERA.[15] Similarly, in 2005, a South African study found that "cricketers were not more likely to have crossed dominance" than the normal population.[16]

Ocular dominance is an important consideration in predicting patient satisfaction with monovision correction in cataract surgery,[17] refractive surgery, also laser eye surgery, and contact lens wear.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallax
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pa...nter_error.PNG

Well now I'm confused or maybe not. Maybe the coach is right.

So I began to make adjustments. Point on the spot and peek with my head slightly out to get a clear focus on the target then back in with the point blurred.
Ok shooting was the results.

How to teach the subconscious to aim is were I'm at.
The problem with traditional is we cannot sight thru the point of the arrow. Now if you gap your ok until point on. That's my problem. I pick a spot, aim shoot. With the tip just right I don't have to peek and as I said expanding put it on.
Dan
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,828 Posts
I am noticing at the blank bale, that I need to be somewhat on target once I start to expand towards release. Being dead on target is not as important as having a relaxed posture and focusing on maintaining back extension and pulling through the shot. If I don't feel it once I am at that point in the shot sequence I am training myself to let down. But it's SO hard to let down once I am at that point.

Anyway, I think it's more important to have everything in the shot feeling just right at this point and just let the subconscious fine tune the aim while the conscious mind is focusing on back tension, a clean release, and conclusion of the shot. It seems to always result in a better shot result.
Urban, I am not a coach. However, I know Joe and your self or in training. And good for you.

When I shot back tension release you had to take care to not tip the release back as it triggered the release. Popping you in the face as you draw. Once you were at full draw and if the release was set properly. All It took to set off the release properly was expand. Now you could pop it off by pulling straight back and down with the elbow. But that's not properly.

After watching the videos several time. The coach tells you in the execution section, if you have proper back tension your draw hand will slide along your neck, in our case your face, and end up around by the ear area. Mine is either on my face or around back as described. Also, he said, which struck me odd, was not to relax your fingers. If you have a deep hook the back of you hand and wrist will be straight. The expansion will pull the release open just enough to let go of the string. It was, to him, good indication that the archer was not using expansion if the archer's hand ended straight back and the hand was open.

As indicated above. Relax then expand should set off the release.

I have seen some very, very good snap shooter do this also.

P.s. someone here posted Joe and Steve picture's as a example.
Dan
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
2,773 Posts
This has become a great thread.

Matt is from Montana, and some fellows shoot buffalo guns up there. Some manufacture them. Hence my bad guess about where he learnt to aim. Similar notions have been explored by shooters of target rifles and target pistols, Olympic and otherwise. And by Olympic archers and coaches. We can learn from them and from each other.

We all have a lizard brain down in the back of the rest of the brain. It cannot do everything, but what it can do it does very well. Lizards ruled the world long before we did, and probably will when we are gone. They are all predators, single minded and supremely focused. Just what we need to hit a target or kill something to eat. - lbg
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,516 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
This has become a great thread.

Matt is from Montana, and some fellows shoot buffalo guns up there. Some manufacture them. Hence my bad guess about where he learnt to aim. Similar notions have been explored by shooters of target rifles and target pistols, Olympic and otherwise. And by Olympic archers and coaches. We can learn from them and from each other.

We all have a lizard brain down in the back of the rest of the brain. It cannot do everything, but what it can do it does very well. Lizards ruled the world long before we did, and probably will when we are gone. They are all predators, single minded and supremely focused. Just what we need to hit a target or kill something to eat. - lbg
Solid guess though one of my good friends competes at a national level with them. I've talked the mental game with him a bunch and they are very similar.

Matt

---------------------------------------------------

Team Montana - we are coming for your quarters ;-)
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
2,773 Posts
Well maybe the two of you ought to plan a trip to NorCal next spring. Lots of wonderful archery events before the ice goes out in Montana. Dry camping on the ranges and hundreds of cheap national forest campsights all over the state. Live cheap except for gas money. And we shoot buffalo guns on metallic silhouettes to 500 meters in Sacramento. Surplus silhouttes too; vintage battle rifles. Great people outside of the coastal cities.

Come on down. - lbg
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,065 Posts
If I have or see any float,the shot will be poor.
At full draw I settle into a calm that doesn't include any movement of my bow or bow arm.
This is not trying to hold still,it is settling into a stillness prior to release.

I've always released based on my sight picture and I think anybody saying other wise is kidding themselves because something has to trigger the decission to release either conciously or subconciously.
That little feather touching the nose thing is good and it works,but the decission to pull through to it has been made when we were at the right part of our shot cycle which I would bet was a satisfaction with the sight picture.

I use a Mantra,but it's between shots not during them and it's for two reasons.
#1 is to prevent me thinking outside of what I'm doing and #2 is for it's calming effect.
The only thing I'm thinking when I'm actually shooting is "Nothing" other than my shooting sequence and my expectations of feel during each part.
And often not even that much because I do most of it at the same type of subconcious level I drive a car or ride a bike at.
Once I'm settled at full draw and happy with my sight picture,I release and follow through.
Having the sight picture correct is a big part of my sequence and without it I would be shooting at nothing.
Needless to say,I don't get not using the sight picture as your trigger to begin your release guardless of how you break the release it's self down.

John.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,516 Posts
Discussion Starter · #19 ·
John

I am absolutely using my sight picture to start my expansion which triggers my release. But I'm not consciously letting go of the string based on sight picture anymore than a clicker shooter is.

I miss used the word mantra badly in my original post - if I'm shooting well I don't thing about anything as I shoot.


---------------------------------------------------

Team Montana - we are coming for your quarters ;-)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,828 Posts
John, the way I think about it is this: taking a breath of air expanding your chest or push your back bone forward. Most release shooter say a good back tension is a surprise.

Like changing gears on a stick shift while your seeing the road.

Yes, sight picture has to trigger expansion and expansion triggers release.

Matt, I think Rod's clinics paid off for you.
Dan
 
1 - 20 of 31 Posts
Top