Trad Talk Forums banner

How do I start gap shooting?

34K views 74 replies 27 participants last post by  DylanH 
G
#1 ·
Okay, I throw in the towel...I want to learn a basic gap shooting system...

I'm definitely "paper plate" accurate out to 40 yards and most of my groups under 30 are covered with the palm of my hand, but I feel like my progress has hit a wall.

When Rod Jenkins mentioned he's gone 17 seasons without a miss or a wound it just reminded me of what's possible barebow and I'd like to take my shooting to a different level...

How do I begin gap shooting? I think my form, release are consistent enough now to start working out some solid reference points...

Now, I tune my bows to shoot slightly above (inch or two at 20 yards) where I look and make "Hanky Panky" adjustments that get me out to 40...
 
G
#52 ·
Martin, theoretically I believe you're right...just like a longer arrow allows more precise aiming...in practice, I think tilting your head gives a better sight picture....however, and it's a biggie...your head angle has to be consistent!
 
#53 ·
Atlantis said:
Martin, theoretically I believe you're right...just like a longer arrow allows more precise aiming...in practice, I think tilting your head gives a better sight picture....however, and it's a biggie...your head angle has to be consistent!
I was playing around with the idea of adjusting head angle to get conveniently sized gaps at various distances, Pete. Wouldn't it be nice if it worked? Doubt it can, though.

Best,

Martin
 
#54 ·
Martin, this is why some of us are face walkers. It's much more consistent to shift to higher and lower, but well practiced, anchor points to "control" the gap. This is pretty effective for me in the barebow 900 rounds (60, 50 and 40 yds), but the drawback shows at my 40 yd range where I can't find just the right and consistent anchor and so have to start estimating gap a little bit. I will typically score higher at 50 and 60 than at 40, even on windy days.:(
 
#55 ·
martin,

"Theoretically, a larger gap allows for finer aiming, doesn't it? It's harder to cope with, on the other hand."

I find that a smaller gap gives me more precise aiming. I can think in inches more precisely than I can in feet. Also, the larger the gap the further away the arrow is from your periferal vision which further reduces the clarity of using the arrow to aim with.

I agree with pete that the head angle has to be repeatable wether one chooses a high or low head position.
 
#56 ·
Reading through the various posts, I can't decide if you guys are talking about gap shooting or point of aim shooting. For me, the difference is where you focus your attention (sight). Gap shooting you focus on the target and see the gap to the arrow in your peripheral vision. Point of aim you focus on the end of the arrow and hold it on "your point of aim" which often isn't the point you want to hit.

Oz is right about changing anchors. Face walking is the only way I can handle the range of distances on the NFAA Field course (20 feet to 80 yards).

Dave
 
#57 ·
Oz in OH said:
... but the drawback shows at my 40 yd range where I can't find just the right and consistent anchor and so have to start estimating gap a little bit. I will typically score higher at 50 and 60 than at 40, even on windy days.:(
'Hanking' with the arrow (rather than the bow arm) might work at 40, Oz. I played around with that variant last night for the first time. It's actually rather astounding, and I can't see why he prefers the arm-pointing style.

Best,

Martin
 
G
#58 ·
Desert Archer makes a good point that maybe Bob and Rod can clarify...do gappers focus their primary sight entirely on the target and take the gap from that (much biggger), or as Hank has pointed out, use the smaller gap at the riser?

Now, I gap off the shaft in my secondary vision, but am trying to transition to the point...but, when I first set my sight picture, my primary vision is on the shaft and I take my gap at that point then focus on the target...so the gap is in inches (or less)...not feet...

Guess that's kind of a combination DA...
 
#59 ·
Atlantis, Dave is technically correct IMO on the distinction between "gap" and "point of aim". However, common usage now has mostly blurred it and few people mention "poa." I think that's the way Rod was using it, in the currently common vernacular.

Martin, "Hanking" with the arrow is the Rick McKinney system. It's a terrific system and IMO it's the one most so-called "instinctive" shooters use primarily because it is the most consistently workable system for the greatest number of shooters, except for those whose anchor points are so far away from their eyes that they don't have sufficient perspective on the arrow to use its shaft as a "pointer."
 
#60 ·
Oz in OH said:
"Hanking" with the arrow is the Rick McKinney system. It's a terrific system and IMO it's the one most so-called "instinctive" shooters use primarily because it is the most consistently workable system for the greatest number of shooters, except for those whose anchor points are so far away from their eyes that they don't have sufficient perspective on the arrow to use its shaft as a "pointer."
Oz, it's also very susceptible to sight fatigue, I think. Worked great today for the first half of a session, then went downhill in a way not attributable to physical form. I had slept little last night, but my muscles were still functioning okay.

I discovered that resting your eyes between shots, letting them run up and down the range during your draw and various other exercises help a bit. Even closing them briefly before aim can improve things. But looking at the arrow in the required way is obviously a strain. As your eyes get tired, they either want to gun-barrel from the back of the arrow or aim with the point alone. Both tendencies can ruin results totally, not just marginally.

What can also help on a per shot basis is consciously constructing that 'laser beam' between the front third of the arrow and the bull's-eye. When your sight is fresh, this is roughly what you do anyway (with the back of the shaft blurring a bit, though it still helps with windage adjustment). When your eyes are weary, it takes some effort and firm knowledge of what you're looking for. But the overall effect of the strain continues to accumulate.

Now, I'm guessing a hunter wouldn't experience this effect, but a target shooter will on some days. What's the cure? Perhaps it's important to go through resting routines from the very onset, well before your eyes tire. And not to focus on the target or any particular part of the arrow too much during your draw, as you will have to wrench your eyes away from it.

Best,

Martin
 
#61 ·
Martin Farrent said:
Now, I'm guessing a hunter wouldn't experience this effect, but a target shooter will on some days. What's the cure?
If the target shooting you are referring to is 3D (often the case on "trad" boards) the situation is much the same as with hunting. Shots are spaced far enough apart that I don't think the fatigue problem will be that great.

If you are thinking of NAA/FITA as target shooting, I don't think you will find any or very, very few competitors shooting "gap" or with Hank's mystery sistem (no offense Hank, I just never understood what it is you do or are advocating).

The one form of "target" shooting I know of where some form of gap or "instinctive" shooting is commonly practiced is IFAA Longbow Class. There it has been refined to a high level of effectiveness.

Dave
 
#62 · (Edited)
Desert Archer said:
If you are thinking of NAA/FITA as target shooting, I don't think you will find any or very, very few competitors shooting "gap" or with Hank's mystery sistem (no offense Hank, I just never understood what it is you do or are advocating).
Dave, I've only tried the arrow variant of Hank's system twice, but it seems to be very accurate at short to intermediate ranges. With a bit of luck, I can get a 3" group of six arrows at 30 yards - even though I've only been shooting a few months. At 35 yards, I'm still often getting 4" groups. I can't test longer shots without going to the shooting range.

It's not reported to work well at long ranges, though, and that sight fatigue problem is very real. Perhaps it will dissolve somewhat with practice, perhaps not. But I can't imagine shooting 90 arrows in a row that way, right now. And when the system lets you down, it appears to let you down very badly. Not just a little bit.

Provided you could eventually get the necessary mileage out of it, I'm guessing you could most easily combine it with point-of-aim (for longer shots). A problem could be interference between the various aiming methods - the arrow-pointing system really requires you to look at the arrow in an entirely different way. The focus of concentration is on getting the right perspective, upon which elevation and windage take care of themselves. To keep the two methods very separate mentally, it would probably be a good idea to keep one eye closed during point-of-aim shots.

As to how it works on the practical level, you can compare it with aiming a billiard cue at a ball. Arrow and bull's-eye are on a plane of their own, so to speak. Your eye is on another and you are completely conscious of that. There you go, yet another attempt of putting it into words... ;)

Regarding the underlying physics, I outlined a possible explanation in another thread today - or rather some of the explanation.

Best,

Martin
 
#70 ·
I remember reading this thread some time ago. The post by Bob Gordon on his method was a monumental help to me. My peripheral vision is horrid. I loose the arrow in it on close range shots. Add to that I am more comfortable split than three under and my gap is huge until about 50 yards.

I have been doing some string walking to get around the peripheral thing but I have revisited this method since the thread came up again and found it to be my best fit for a field type competition.

Thanks Bob!!! Hope you are well.

Rich
 
#71 ·
Rich,

I briefly flirted with Bob Gordon's method because it sounded great but I never quite got to grips with it.

So are you using the "invisible sight pin" method now then to good effect?

Are you imaginging a sight pin (say 1" above arrow shaft on riser), picturing it clearly in your mind and placing it on the KZ for say a 20/25yd shot?

I am going to try to transition to split vision but must admit Bob's method was logically very appealing. It seems more definite to me and logical than split vision but in practice maybe the reverse is true. I need to commit to a new method for sure.

Have been a poa shooter and that was fine 3under with fast carbons but for longbow split finger and woodies it has limitations, especially the bit where one finds oneself aiming at a point on the ground 3 feet in front of a target!


Dylan
 
#72 ·
Dylan, I've been fooling around with (basically) gapping off the riser, and have found that taking thin slices of masking tape and placing them accross the riser (horizontally) is of great aid to me. I'm working on this for extended distance, basically 50-80yds... not needing it for those yardages less than PO distance. As Bob noted and which seems to apply to myself, with a standard "measurement", and knowing where that "is" on the riser, applying it to other yardages becomes a bit easier.

All that said... I'm still enjoying playing with it at 50-60yds and beyond. :)

Tom
 
#73 ·
Tom,

I can see how that would help for extended yardages. My difference is/was getting it to work for my maximum gap distance where I am aiming considerably under targets.

Whenever (and it was only briefly) I tried the masking tape method to ingrain the sight picture it always seemed to throw off my alignment/windage as I couldnt help myself lining up the tape with the centre/kz so the shot was off. I could never quite bring myself to "aim off" to the side to compensate. I know some people are kind of looking through the riser to target.

Sometimes it would work well, others not. Always for me it was issues with alignment and arrow going left, the distance/elevation part of it was very good.

I probably need to work on my imagination to picture the sight pin centred over the arrow shaft (like a real sight pin). I think that also brings us close to seeign the sight picture almost like a camera shot based on the target and how it looks within the riser sight window - I know several very good archers who refer to this more than a specific or definite "gap".

I think until something becomes ingrained you naturally revert to your comfort zone so I would find myself switching back to old ways in shoots. I would then get my alignment back but lose the benefit of accurate elevation! I shall have to return to it again though as it definitely has merit. Sometimes you just have to try a method a few times, try it, leave it, come back to it a few times before it clicks and sticks. Well seems that way for me!

This is definitely a good place to pick up ideas though and tips so I am appreciating that.

I have a feeling I will end up with a melding of several methods into my own system, and possibly using different methods throughout a shoot depending what the shot calls for.

I reckon I will crack it about the time I can no longer draw my bow! The fun, yet sometimes frustrating, thing with archery is there is always stuff to learn.




Dylan
 
#74 ·
Dylan,

I have gotten it to work from 5 yards to 60 on a single anchor. I find it easier if the sight window has features you can get hold of. I mentally cut the window into halves, quarters, eights. I also do like Tom and use tape until I get use to the picture. As far as windage goes I use a mental mark half way across the top of the riser window at short ranges. For longer ranges (after 35 yards or so) I just use the arrow but I line the string up with the riser on pre-draw so the angle always is in the same place.

 
#75 · (Edited)
Thanks for that Rich - I need to experiment.

I have gotten the gap at riser method to work at times by using what I would call the "tick-tick" method. I got this from a very good barebow compounder I know. He puts his point on the centre of target and then "tick-tick's" down in small increments until he gets his correct gap. He is using measurements at the riser based on his arrow shaft and has got it down to 1/4 shaft thickness units. And he is very accurate. Obviously a lot easier holding 15lb at full draw rather than 45 - 50! But it can be done with recurves. Its the only way I got to keep alignment and not shoot left.

I never considered using the string aligned against riser, or even string blur for that matter, need to consider that.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top