Trad Talk Forums banner
41 - 60 of 75 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,460 Posts
Hornseeker...DANG!!! I guess Rod and I missed out on fame and fortune by going public with this...lol...We should have kept our mouths shut and written the ultimate "hit what you aim at" book...or "don't become the arrow, aim off it"...warf
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,460 Posts
Legs getting better, still not ready for a hike in the woods let alone trying to get something out of the woods. The elk I get seem to always run down hill well below any old logging roads, never have got one on flat land or in a easy place to get out. Maybe in a week or so I will be healed up eneugh to hit the woods...warf
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,460 Posts
While on the subject of gap shooting here's a nice little ditty that also works well. For hunting if you use a wide two bladed broadhead mount them so one blade is straight up and all broadheads the exact same, you can check this by aligning them with the string and by twisting the nock a little to get them the same. Then paint the back edge of the top blade with a coat of Whiteout or a bright white paint. Presto!..A nice sight pin that you can use the top of for a yardage and if you anchor is fairly high or if you shoot three under it should be pretty close to your hunting yardage. Fun stuff this "instinctive" stuff...lol...warf
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,216 Posts
Hornseeker said:
Man, someone needs to print this and market it at 3R's!
Yes, what we have here is some fantastically tangible information for people looking to establish a new shooting system. And while sincere thanks go to Rod, Bob and other veterans for that, some must also go to Pete for starting it. What I especially like is the opportunity to study and understand the options before investing the time and effort needed to acquire one's own system.

Oh, btw. Bob, the idea of having more than one starting point on your bow is exceedingly nifty. I like that.

Best,

Martin
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,287 Posts
Bob Gordon said:
While on the subject of gap shooting here's a nice little ditty that also works well. For hunting if you use a wide two bladed broadhead mount them so one blade is straight up and all broadheads the exact same, you can check this by aligning them with the string and by twisting the nock a little to get them the same. Then paint the back edge of the top blade with a coat of Whiteout or a bright white paint. Presto!..A nice sight pin that you can use the top of for a yardage and if you anchor is fairly high or if you shoot three under it should be pretty close to your hunting yardage. Fun stuff this "instinctive" stuff...lol...warf
Bob...some of the luminous sight pin paint works pretty too...in fact you can charge it with your flashlight :p ...but with all the new fiber optic sights...its getting hard to find the stuff...lol

Martin...the great thing about threads like this one is... insight into options in tailoring a aiming system to suit your needs or a combination of different methods.. if a majority of your targets are 50+ yds a different method may be more effective than if most targets are 25 and under.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,216 Posts
ROD JENKINS said:
Martin...the great thing about threads like this one is... insight into options in tailoring a aiming system to suit your needs or a combination of different methods.. if a majority of your targets are 50+ yds a different method may be more effective than if most targets are 25 and under.
I had roughly the same idea, Rod, and venturing from garden to shooting range today (five minutes by bicycle), I tried out a hybrid system with some fairly natural transition points. After four days of experimenting with the options, I'm now actually satisfied with the framework I've chosen - and have decided to rest my research and get down to practice.

My idea was that gapping at the target end would be especially viable around spot-on range. But close up, I'm happy to use approximate bow-end gaps and let optics and intuition take care of the details. So for short ranges, I have just a few rough gaps. One unit is equal to the distance between the point and base of my bow-hand's top knuckle. The bull's-eye is visualised as if it were right at the end of the arrow:

5.4 yds. = -3 units
11 yds. = -3 units
16.4 yds. = -3 units
22 yds. = -2 units
27.5 yds. = -1.5 units

At 27.5 yards, I could also employ a 21-inch target-end gap. But I found it unnecessary and inconveniently large. For the time being, I appear to do better with my bow-end gaps at this range. However, just a few yards further out, the two methods seem equally manageable:

33 yds. = -1 unit bow end, or -10.5 inches target end

And hovering around spot on, target-end gaps do seem the natural way to go (note: all these crooked figures come from measuring in meters and centimetres, then converting to yards and inches):

37.2 yds. = spot on
38.3 yds. = +4.3 inches target end
44 yards (tentative) = +27 inches target end

But that gap at 44 yards is about as much as I can digest. The experiment ended there, today, and to be honest, my skills do not yet suffice to require a cure for longer ranges. But when they do, I'm probably going to adopt a third sub-system for long distances. Maybe that's just where Bob's sighting-in system could come in handy.

Once again, I'm really grateful to the people who've posted their methods here. By reading about them and augmenting that information with bits and pieces found elsewhere, then trying the options, I feel I've come up with a system that will suit me.

Best,

Martin
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
707 Posts
Martin,

I beleive in an earlier post you mentioned that you keep an upright head position. i have found that tilting the head over the arrow significantly reduces the gap therefore making the aiming process more precise.

I would be curious to find out what would happen to the gap numbers you posted if you tried that.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,216 Posts
Stagmitis said:
Martin,

I beleive in an earlier post you mentioned that you keep an upright head position. i have found that tilting the head over the arrow significantly reduces the gap therefore making the aiming process more precise.
I wonder if it's really more precise, though. Or just easier to handle?

Theoretically, a larger gap allows for finer aiming, doesn't it? It's harder to cope with, on the other hand.

And a smaller one would also reduce your point-on range.

Best,

Martin
 
G

·
Discussion Starter · #52 ·
Martin, theoretically I believe you're right...just like a longer arrow allows more precise aiming...in practice, I think tilting your head gives a better sight picture....however, and it's a biggie...your head angle has to be consistent!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,216 Posts
Atlantis said:
Martin, theoretically I believe you're right...just like a longer arrow allows more precise aiming...in practice, I think tilting your head gives a better sight picture....however, and it's a biggie...your head angle has to be consistent!
I was playing around with the idea of adjusting head angle to get conveniently sized gaps at various distances, Pete. Wouldn't it be nice if it worked? Doubt it can, though.

Best,

Martin
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,048 Posts
Martin, this is why some of us are face walkers. It's much more consistent to shift to higher and lower, but well practiced, anchor points to "control" the gap. This is pretty effective for me in the barebow 900 rounds (60, 50 and 40 yds), but the drawback shows at my 40 yd range where I can't find just the right and consistent anchor and so have to start estimating gap a little bit. I will typically score higher at 50 and 60 than at 40, even on windy days.:(
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
707 Posts
martin,

"Theoretically, a larger gap allows for finer aiming, doesn't it? It's harder to cope with, on the other hand."

I find that a smaller gap gives me more precise aiming. I can think in inches more precisely than I can in feet. Also, the larger the gap the further away the arrow is from your periferal vision which further reduces the clarity of using the arrow to aim with.

I agree with pete that the head angle has to be repeatable wether one chooses a high or low head position.
 

·
Barebow Recurve Shooter
Joined
·
4,540 Posts
Reading through the various posts, I can't decide if you guys are talking about gap shooting or point of aim shooting. For me, the difference is where you focus your attention (sight). Gap shooting you focus on the target and see the gap to the arrow in your peripheral vision. Point of aim you focus on the end of the arrow and hold it on "your point of aim" which often isn't the point you want to hit.

Oz is right about changing anchors. Face walking is the only way I can handle the range of distances on the NFAA Field course (20 feet to 80 yards).

Dave
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,216 Posts
Oz in OH said:
... but the drawback shows at my 40 yd range where I can't find just the right and consistent anchor and so have to start estimating gap a little bit. I will typically score higher at 50 and 60 than at 40, even on windy days.:(
'Hanking' with the arrow (rather than the bow arm) might work at 40, Oz. I played around with that variant last night for the first time. It's actually rather astounding, and I can't see why he prefers the arm-pointing style.

Best,

Martin
 
G

·
Discussion Starter · #58 ·
Desert Archer makes a good point that maybe Bob and Rod can clarify...do gappers focus their primary sight entirely on the target and take the gap from that (much biggger), or as Hank has pointed out, use the smaller gap at the riser?

Now, I gap off the shaft in my secondary vision, but am trying to transition to the point...but, when I first set my sight picture, my primary vision is on the shaft and I take my gap at that point then focus on the target...so the gap is in inches (or less)...not feet...

Guess that's kind of a combination DA...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,048 Posts
Atlantis, Dave is technically correct IMO on the distinction between "gap" and "point of aim". However, common usage now has mostly blurred it and few people mention "poa." I think that's the way Rod was using it, in the currently common vernacular.

Martin, "Hanking" with the arrow is the Rick McKinney system. It's a terrific system and IMO it's the one most so-called "instinctive" shooters use primarily because it is the most consistently workable system for the greatest number of shooters, except for those whose anchor points are so far away from their eyes that they don't have sufficient perspective on the arrow to use its shaft as a "pointer."
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,216 Posts
Oz in OH said:
"Hanking" with the arrow is the Rick McKinney system. It's a terrific system and IMO it's the one most so-called "instinctive" shooters use primarily because it is the most consistently workable system for the greatest number of shooters, except for those whose anchor points are so far away from their eyes that they don't have sufficient perspective on the arrow to use its shaft as a "pointer."
Oz, it's also very susceptible to sight fatigue, I think. Worked great today for the first half of a session, then went downhill in a way not attributable to physical form. I had slept little last night, but my muscles were still functioning okay.

I discovered that resting your eyes between shots, letting them run up and down the range during your draw and various other exercises help a bit. Even closing them briefly before aim can improve things. But looking at the arrow in the required way is obviously a strain. As your eyes get tired, they either want to gun-barrel from the back of the arrow or aim with the point alone. Both tendencies can ruin results totally, not just marginally.

What can also help on a per shot basis is consciously constructing that 'laser beam' between the front third of the arrow and the bull's-eye. When your sight is fresh, this is roughly what you do anyway (with the back of the shaft blurring a bit, though it still helps with windage adjustment). When your eyes are weary, it takes some effort and firm knowledge of what you're looking for. But the overall effect of the strain continues to accumulate.

Now, I'm guessing a hunter wouldn't experience this effect, but a target shooter will on some days. What's the cure? Perhaps it's important to go through resting routines from the very onset, well before your eyes tire. And not to focus on the target or any particular part of the arrow too much during your draw, as you will have to wrench your eyes away from it.

Best,

Martin
 
41 - 60 of 75 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top