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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
" The DAS take-down system was designed from the clean-paper get-go for bow hunting. The ILF was designed for target archery. While Those two segments of traditional archery have a LOT in common, there are some significant differences. Target archers place minimal priority on the noise a bow generates. For a bow hunter stalking game with auditory senses FAR superior to that of humans, sound reduction is critical, especially the mechanical noises a take down bow can generate.
David A Sosa the creator of the DAS Kinetic bows designed the TD system was a bowhunter and stealth was a MAJOR priority in his development process.
While ILF system bows can certainly be tweaked tuned and adjusted to reduce system noise, the DAS system as designed, is dead quiet out of the box. You basically have to screw it up to make it noisy
Bear in mind that loose attachments, poorly matched and fitted limbs, overstressed limbs, improper brace height are guaranteed noise generators, as is a sloppy release. None of those noise sources are related to the limb attachment." DWS
 

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Has anyone made a wood DAS compatible riser? Now that would be the ideal hunting bow. I think wood risers would attract more of the traditional crowd. I don't like metal risers so would buy one in a heartbeat.
 

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I have one DAS bow Sam. It is actually a 21" Dalaa.

The bow has made me sad……

I doubt that any of my wood bows, that perform exceedingly well, will see much, if any, hunting time again.

Anybody have a LH DAS Kinetic they wish to part with? I would be happy with another 21" Dalaa as well. :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Actually, the DAS takedown system was designed by Earl Hoyt Jr, for target bows and worked very well for the shorter hunting versions as well :)
Agreed but with no adjustment slot in the old TD series Bows. The DAS system allows for ILF limbs and tiller adjustment in a wider range.
 

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In my opinion, the DAS is a great design, but the problems it intended to correct didn't exist to any meaningful extent in the first place.

I've heard ILF setups that were as quiet as a hill style longbow and DAS setups that were as noisy as a kitchen band...and just the opposite.
 

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I think you might be right, but even that was a problem that didn't exist. I think it was said that ILF and short risers were incompatible. That ended up not being the case either.
I was not there at the time, I got here later, but my understanding (? right or wrong) is that in 1995-2003 there just were not any short-metal-hunting risers, to speak of, ILF or not.
You might probably be right, regarding the incompatible thought process back then.
 

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I don't know about that Steve, could be.

From what I've read, the whole reason for the design of the connection was to make it possible to safely use ILF limbs on a short riser. That seems to be a problem that didn't exist. That's what I was getting at.
 

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I've never shot one but I know a man 5 hours north of here who likes them a lot. He knows his onions so I guess they are a good riser. They seem expensive to buy but I guess it's supply and demand. Not really sure if the DAS system offered any advantage over other attachments but I guess the same could be said about Formula now.


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s. When the DAS was designed there were no "short" metal risers that were ILF compatible. Most of the risers Bob was warfing were in the 20" range.
AND there were very very few "hunting weight" ILf limbs. Most were in the low 40's on the 23/24 inch risers. {Hoyt had made some super shorts for a short lived camoed hunting version of the gold medalist---The Talon. but they were basic maple/glass limbs. PSE imported a few heavy weight "hunting" limbs (50-65# that I have seen) for their camoed ILF bow called the Jackal, it was a 23/34 inch riser camoed version of their ILF target bow. Occasionally you could find an "off spec" set of hoyt or W&W OLY/FITA limbs marked 50#@28 but they were few and far between }
So for WARF purposes we were stuck with bows that would pretty much max out at maybe 50# @ 28"

David saw a need for a shorter HUNTING bow that could use modern FITA tech limbs and reliably give 50#+ draw weights. Initially he was designing for ILF fittings and a shorter riser with a number of improvements, Alloy strength, precision machined, adjustable weight/balance etc etc.
He worked with half a dozen of so guys who were all archers and bowhunters--they were all also early members on the site here in its original incarnation. They consulted with him on features design etc etc and also tested the initial protoypes. One of them (I have forgotten which one) suggested that he take a look at the thumb-screw locator screw used in the earlier generation Hoyt TD's (before Earl created the "ILF" for his target bows) The early 16" Hoyt PM/TD Hunter might have served as an inspiration however David did not acquire one untill well after the DAS Kinetic was in production. David looked at that system and re-worked it and its pocket to enable it to serve as more than just locator screw.
As Sam mentioned, that is one of the key differences between the simple Hoyt TD locator thumb screw and the the DAS "capture" (or "caption") screw.
In addition David spent a lot of time and money to make a bow as silent as possible. He worked with a, well-known-to-the-site, target archer and bowhunter who was also a former "stealth" acoustical tech specialist. He had worked on the US Navy stealth submarine fleet, and was able to help David adapt a version of the rubber "skin" of our hunter killer subs as the sound and vibration-killing mounting-pads under the limb-butts.
The project advisors got the first half dozen bows as Beta-model DAS Kinetics. I jumped on the DAS band wagon at about that point, just as it was heading down the road--Think goodness!!! I managed to get one of the next half dozen as the first actual production run. While I have a bunch of bows including some ver very nice ones----My DAS is my "cold dead hands" bow.

Yes an ILF bow can be made deadly quiet, if you work at it and have the knowledge and materials. Most of us have done it on one bow or another.
The DAS was designed to be that way out of the box------if they were noisy it was a matter of set-up, mistuning, poor limb fit, poor selection and mounting of accessories. and most commonly simply using arrows too light in order to squeeze out the last few possible FPS in the Need For Speed race.

A lot has changed since the DAS Kenetic was designed and produced. After Bob Gordon broke the trail with his WARF bows and David took it the next step with the DAS Kenetic others recognized the value of the FITA Tech limbs mounted on shorter risers. Other perceptive and forward looking bow makers began making short risered with ILF fittings, some even produced custom versions of their own high performance limbs in ILF configuration. Soon the "industrial" mfgs geared up to produce "hunting weight" ILf limbs in addition to their top-of-the line FITA limbs. Today we have a wide range of ILF and DAS compatable risers-----including some very high grade ones from
custom bowmakers. We also have a range of risers and limbs for the budget conscious archer

But it all starts with Bob Gordon and David Sosa and a few of the founding members of this Trad Talk site
 

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Erich/ AKA Shortdraw has collected and studied them extensively and has corresponded with David. he has posted here on the different quantities and shapes, sizes, and color variations that were produced by David before the Dalaa was turned over to 3Rivers and David retired from archery. If you search back you can find his posts on that.

There are a whole bunch of other posts that discuss the whole long complexicated history of the Das Kinetic. Much of the development was discussed, in progress here on this site.
Tyet he story of Bob "WARF" Gordon, PapaBull's Trad Talk, and David "DAS Kinetic" Sosa, are so commingled that it almost seems that one could hardly have existed with out the others

Since that has all been well explained in the past I am a bit reluctant to go over it all again. The search tool will easily find the material and you can spend as much time as you wish studying it.
 
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IMO, what David Sosa brought to the table first and foremost was the first high quality, machined aluminum riser that was specifically designed to appeal to discriminating hunters and to utilize high performance olympic ILF-type limbs. At the time of introduction, there was, quite simply, no other comparable riser.

Kudos to David for recognizing that there was a market for such a riser. I doubt that he realized at the time just how large that potential market might be.

If memory serves me correctly, I found the TradTalk site while researching the DAS riser as I was already shooting a 20" TD-3 riser and was searching for something shorter.
 
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