[Zulu]

Would having you bow set closer to center shot be more forgiving of a poor release (arrows tuned of course)?

I have built out my strike plate to tune arrows and was just wondering. I shoot mostly at close range so it maybe not make that much of a difference but am starting to shoot at further distances.

As per usual thanks.

 

[Sam Dunham]

Since a finger release induces Paradox upon an arrow, it is important that the arrow starts out in the right rotation to insure an S pass by the riser as it leaves the Bow.

An arrow released by fingers set at perfect center shot would require a perfect and consistent release for good arrow rotation.

For this reason, the closer to center shot you set your arrow, the more difficult it is to have consistency unless your holding your nose right, lol:cheers:

 

[Zulu]

Sam,

So If I'm 1/8" before center (as I am now) I'm better of than stiffening my spines to get closer to center.

Very interesting, I'd have thought it the other way round.

 

[Sam Dunham]

The reason you need more spine the closer to CS you get? Because the arrow in more linear with the string and the Bows energy is more inline to the arrow which translates into needing more spine for good flight.

The problem is the closer you get, the more your release needs to be consistent for good clearance and flight. I like mine adjusted so the arrow point is barely outside the string.

 

[Zulu]

Maybe my terminology is wrong!

I know the arrow needs to sit to the left of the string. Mine are about 3 diameters from the center of the string as viewed from behind at full draw.

 

[Sam Dunham]

Is your Bow cut to centershot? I like mine cut 1/4 past CS. I cut my Hill Bows to center shot which means the arrow diameter and strike plate is the total diameter outward.

 

[Zulu]

Cut 1/8' past center (4mm in real measurements!).

 

[Rasyad]

Zulu,

The most forgiving state of tune for conventional bows (not super stiff torsionally or super fast) will have the fletching clearing the rest at 1.25 oscillations as well as impact the target on the central plane. As the string comes off the fingers it is deflected outward and continues outward for a little bit. Peak outward deflection would be considered 0.25 oscillation. The string and nock then wag back to the central plane at 0.5 oscillation, toward the sight window at 0.75 oscillation, and back to the central plane at 1.0 oscillation. 1.0 is also about where the arrow should come off the string. In a perfect state of tune the arrow bends out and around the bow at 1.25 oscillation and will continue to do this even with less than perfect releases (to a degree). Basic tuning will have the correct arrow spine, length, point, and fletch set up for a given bow and brace height. If you are grouping ok, and the fletching is not hitting the riser you are good to go.

Precision / fine tuning requires many cycles of testing small changes (BH. nock height, nock fit on the string, tiller, center position and spring button tension and on and on) and is only possible to the degree of skill that one shoots. Shooting many groups for score, make a tiny change, test again, and so forth.

Sam is correct about center shot setting being more critical for conventional bows. All the talk here about starting at center setting comes from those shooting really fast and stiff bows. With bows shooting over 210 fps (many are shooting over 220) there is simply not enough time to get the perfect 1.25 oscillation clearance. Folks with these high performance bows are shooting 1 plus stiffer spine, using minimal fletching, center shot setting, and clearing the bow with a lot less to spare. I have seen some high speed footage that look like the arrow is just barely making 1.0 oscillation as it clears.

HERE is an article by Dr. Lieu at Cal Berkeley that goes into much more detail. I spoke with Dennis Lieu about high performance bows and clearance issues at the recent Cal Archery fundraiser shoot. He is planning a followup for the article as soon as they get a newer high speed camera.

All the Best,

Rasyad

 

[Grantmac]

Ideally the bow will be cut fast enough past center so the string is just touching the inside edge of the arrow when viewed from behind.
Anything outside or inside that seems to be less forgiving for me.

-Grant

 

[Zulu]

Thank you Raysad, I have seen that article and it is of great interest. To determine the oscillation number would be impossible for me to determine. All I know is I have adequate fletch clearance.

I am in the 190s with my lighter 500 spines. My shooting is no where good enough to do the type of tweaking you suggest!

Grantmac, you are in a different league to me so I am unable to determine the forgiveness you talk about.

 

[Greysides]

Thanks Rasyad, that was a simple and clear explanation.

 

[steve morley]

Interesting topic and one of the reasons I just ordered new arrows, 500's are too stiff and 620's too weak and although I can get the 500's to tune with more point weight and increasing the poundage, I just decided to try 550's. The 620's should have been fine but 43# Hex6's on a 26" super stiff riser just wont bareshaft and only option left was to cut them much shorter.

I think having a well matched arrow that tunes close to center shot is going to be more forgiving than an over/under spined arrow that forces you too far away from center shot position and adjusting center shot is more of a last resort in my tuning.

 

[Sam Dunham]

You would be right too Steve.:shooting:

 

[Zulu]

Mr. Morley, are you talking hight performance limbs like the Borders, or in general?

 

[steve morley]

Mr. Morley, are you talking high performance limbs like the Borders, or in general?

In general I like to keep my arrows close to normal center shot but the Hex6's I think the center shot is essential in getting the best performance out of the limb, it seems all the spine charts go out the window with Hex's, the 660's and 620's bareshaft pretty good with the 42# Elite+ limbs and the reason I don't want to cut the 620's shorter.

29" 550's with 120g points I hope will be spot on with my Vanquish/Hex6H setup.

 

[John in NZ]

As I see it, the closer your bow comes to perfection, the better your form needs to be.
I always shoot better with my arrow just off centre and I think this has been the average for a very long time so I don't argue the point.

John.

 

[dbake]

Steve,

Would you consider your Elite + limbs to be as torsionally stiff as your Hex limbs?

Don

 

[Stolid Bull]

Steve,

Would you consider your Elite + limbs to be as torsionally stiff as your Hex limbs?

Don

I doubt that!
Up to now I haven't yet seen a limb model that could compete with Border HEX6 regarding TS.
Holger

 

[steve morley]

Steve,

Would you consider your Elite + limbs to be as torsionally stiff as your Hex limbs?

Don

No but the Elites don't need to be, Hex's need to be torsionally stiff because of the radical limb curve. Hex's make an excellent IFAA Field/3D setup because of the speed gain and the Elites work well, just not as fast for same poundage.

I shoot the Hex's 90% of the time, the Elite's are really just backups on the Moon riser, if something goes wrong with the Vanquish/Hex setup the Moon/Elites are tuned and ready to shoot, WA Field/3D finals just no time to stop and change limbs etc you have a spare bow carried by you Coach/Team manager and he will hand it to you there and then. If I was rich I would have two identical Vanquish/Hex setups but I'm not :sbrug:

 

[Zulu]

In general I like to keep my arrows close to normal center shot but the Hex6's I think the center shot is essential in getting the best performance out of the limb, it seems all the spine charts go out the window with Hex's, the 660's and 620's bareshaft pretty good with the 42# Elite+ limbs and the reason I don't want to cut the 620's shorter.

29" 550's with 120g points I hope will be spot on with my Vanquish/Hex6H setup.

Are the numbers you mention spines?

I ask as I am shooting 30" 35/55s (500 spine) with 100gr points from winex limbs that are 44# on my fingers and these are slightly weak. This is with a strike plate built out to 1/8 before center.

I am definitely not getting a false reading as I tried with a 125gr point and they were well weak. I am confused as I'm sure the Hex6 is a far more efficient limb (assuming yours are in the same #range as your Elite+).