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Something was really tripping me out about the set-up on my Thunder Child because when I went on one of my many point proving missions?...the 3 Rivers spine calculator showed that while 175gr points on my full length (31.5") Axis Black .400 spine shafts fletched 3X4" are pretty much spot-on and within .1% of the dynamic spine of my rig (56"/46#@28")?...with the 125gr points I've been shooting....(and popping spots like they had eyes stumping the mountains from near insane distances for this short hybrid)...the 3R Calculator showed these arrows to be like 12+% too stiff for this bow with my 27 1/2" DL sooo?...

This begged further investigation and testing where I removed the 1/6th" thick swatch of triangular shaped leather from behind my calves hair strike-plate...(to get as close to normal stock specs as possible)...and began shooting 1 fletched/1 bare w/ 125gr points and 1 fletched/1 bare w/ 175gr points...



now it took a little tweaking of my strings nock point height to get the bare shafts where the 125gr point one flew just a touch nock low and the 175gr pointed bare shaft flew just a touch nock high and with a little grip pressure finagling?...I was able to get them both to fly pretty darn clean...and little lower with grip pressure for the 175gr point and a little high grip pressure for the 125gr point and the first startling observation I noted was?....

I was expecting one bare shaft to fly much weaker (or stiffer) than the other and?...no dice...both just kept flying straight down the pipe (unless I grossly goofed the shot).

And the 2nd startling observation I noted was...

I was expecting to hear SOME sort of difference in shot note but if ya blind folded me?...I wouldn't of been able to tell you which arrow had which weight point and?...

The 3rd startling observation was...

If you left that blind fold on?...I couldn't even FEEL any difference between the two point weights!

as I proceeded to shoot group after group from 15yds, 18yds and 20yds that all looked pretty much like this 20yd group...of 4 arrows...2 of which have 50grs less point weight than the others...



Now I did aim just a tiny touch higher with the 175gr pointed arrows but still...this blew my mind and the only thing I could figure is this...

These shafts are a whopping 4"s longer than my 27 1/2" draw...and I'm thinking that somehow?...these excessively long arrows are exhibiting a much higher level of forgiveness to where they are able to preform and fly well with a ridiculously wide range of point weight.

So the final questions here are...

1. Am I on to something here?

2. What are your thoughts?

Happy New Years and L8R, Bill. :)
 

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Civil but Disobedient
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A couple of years ago my old coach yelled at my for having a grossly untuned bow at a shoot. I knew the tune was poor. I was shooting a light bow and was really focusing on form and not score. He made me get my tool kit so he could fix it and told me not to do that again. Yes, the bow shot better when he was done. Doing form work with an untuned bow really amplifies issues. I know that if I put the arrow on the center line then I executed a good shot. Now tuning for stringwalking is another story. I am still not happy with my tune. I was hoping to get my bow, with my new Luxor, dialed in over the holidays. Well you know what happened to that plan.

Back to the calculator. Stu Miller added a form function to his program. The form function allowed you to adjust the program so that it gave you the best tuned arrow after your tuning process was complete. You could then use that form factor as an adjustment in future calculations. Stu Miler recognized that form affects tune. Two people with the same draw length, shooting the same bow, will not necessary get the same tune. Hopefully, as fatzboys suggests, your form has improved and you are seeing the result in your tune. I agree. Time to shoot more and tune less.
 
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Longer arrows fly better, shoot (tuned) super short arrows to tuned longer arrows, the longer arrows will fly/score better.
50gr difference at 20 and closer doesn't show much for results, unless your right on the edge of spine.
Now step back to 30-40 yards and you will see more drastic results between the two.
Form plays a huge roll in bare shaft results, like stated above no two forms are exact. Just like grips, you touched on that in your post one point needed more pressure than the other.
Archery is a very individual sport.

Sounds like your doing good to me.

Now the big question is if you had one to choose, which point would you use?

Chad
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Now the big question is if you had one to choose, which point would you use?

Chad
Tough question...but only because of poundage, grip profile and comfort issues.

On one hand?...I feel more precise staying up high toward the throat.

On the other hand?...I feel more comfortable and stable with the larger contact patch of my thumb palm pad covering more grip area a bit lower down.

but at the end of the session with fletched arrows?...somewhere in between seems a happy medium. ;)
 

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50 grains difference in arrow weight usually ends up being plus or minus 8-10 f.p.s., for most single string bows...Which is gonna be hard to see a difference at 20 yards...Shoot the most forgiving arrow, and which ever arrow shoots the best out of that bow, for You...Jim
 

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I draw 27.5 but find it simpler to leave carbon arrows at or near full length. The shorter they are, the twitchier they are. I think it's a matter of 'perfect tuning' vs. (as you said) 'forgiveness'. I'll take the latter.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I draw 27.5 but find it simpler to leave carbon arrows at or near full length. The shorter they are, the twitchier they are. I think it's a matter of 'perfect tuning' vs. (as you said) 'forgiveness'. I'll take the latter.
I agree Dana...matter fact?...I believe it to be the long sight radius that these long arrows offer that make this 56" Thunder Child such a dream to shoot so well for the short hybrid it is.

I'm also seeing that for where sightless archery is concerned?...there's just so many advantages to leaving arrows at their full factory length and never cutting them down that I don't want to shoot anything but "Full Length Shafting". ;)
 

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Something was really tripping me out about the set-up on my Thunder Child because when I went on one of my many point proving missions?...the 3 Rivers spine calculator showed that while 175gr points on my full length (31.5") Axis Black .400 spine shafts fletched 3X4" are pretty much spot-on and within .1% of the dynamic spine of my rig (56"/46#@28")?...with the 125gr points I've been shooting....(and popping spots like they had eyes stumping the mountains from near insane distances for this short hybrid)...the 3R Calculator showed these arrows to be like 12+% too stiff for this bow with my 27 1/2" DL sooo?...

This begged further investigation and testing where I removed the 1/6th" thick swatch of triangular shaped leather from behind my calves hair strike-plate...(to get as close to normal stock specs as possible)...and began shooting 1 fletched/1 bare w/ 125gr points and 1 fletched/1 bare w/ 175gr points...



now it took a little tweaking of my strings nock point height to get the bare shafts where the 125gr point one flew just a touch nock low and the 175gr pointed bare shaft flew just a touch nock high and with a little grip pressure finagling?...I was able to get them both to fly pretty darn clean...and little lower with grip pressure for the 175gr point and a little high grip pressure for the 125gr point and the first startling observation I noted was?....

I was expecting one bare shaft to fly much weaker (or stiffer) than the other and?...no dice...both just kept flying straight down the pipe (unless I grossly goofed the shot).

And the 2nd startling observation I noted was...

I was expecting to hear SOME sort of difference in shot note but if ya blind folded me?...I wouldn't of been able to tell you which arrow had which weight point and?...

The 3rd startling observation was...

If you left that blind fold on?...I couldn't even FEEL any difference between the two point weights!

as I proceeded to shoot group after group from 15yds, 18yds and 20yds that all looked pretty much like this 20yd group...of 4 arrows...2 of which have 50grs less point weight than the others...



Now I did aim just a tiny touch higher with the 175gr pointed arrows but still...this blew my mind and the only thing I could figure is this...

These shafts are a whopping 4"s longer than my 27 1/2" draw...and I'm thinking that somehow?...these excessively long arrows are exhibiting a much higher level of forgiveness to where they are able to preform and fly well with a ridiculously wide range of point weight.

So the final questions here are...

1. Am I on to something here?

2. What are your thoughts?

Happy New Years and L8R, Bill. :)
I've actually had a similar experience lately. I'm working on tuning up with a set of GT 1535's for my Sage with 35# limbs. I draw 29.5", so it's probably around 38# at my anchor. With full length shafts, Stu's calculator and the new one on 3 Rivers tell me 85-90 gr tips gets me about a perfect match with the bow. At 20 yards I get the best match of bare shaft and fletched groups with 100 gr tips, but I get the best groups and actual fletched flight with 125 gr tips. I'm new enough to find this pretty confusing, but I'm just gonna go with it for now and see how things go for a bit.

Sent from my XT1056 using Tapatalk
 

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Maybe I can provide some back up to the better form theory. 3D season's coming up, I felt I was having some form issues, specifically release/follow-through inconsistencies, so I decided to do the Bridge Program. Two weeks of blank bale behind me, I was feeling pretty good about my progress, and as I wasn't aiming anyway I just grabbed a couple of bare shafts and hit the bale. Those same shafts that were hitting 25-30 degrees weak the last time I tried to bare shaft them flew perfectly, hitting the bale dead straight L/R with a slightly nock high attitude. Perfect IMO. Felt like I was killing two(or more) birds with one stone....
 
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