[Mo0se]

Allow me to make an example, now this is purely target archery thinking here. Why on earth would anyone pay $900 + for a set of your limbs that are based purely in speed, and low brace height, when I can buy a $300-400 set and shoot nearly as fast? If speed were the only thing I was chasing? The simple truth is, for a decent set of arrows weighing in at 6.5 to 7 gpp complete, I can push the limbs I already own well over the 200fps mark and keep my forgiving brace height? All for about $90. The whole Hex 7 marketing the only 0.5 # gain per inch doesn't mean a hill of beans to me because holding 45# is equal across the board. Also in my example you shoot as low as 34# otf and shoot 221 fps.,. Ask me how I know. I also shot those limbs at that gpp for over a year.

 

[JParanee]

Jeff

Price gouged is a bit rough no ?

Porsche or Ferrari does not apologize for the pricing of their high end prouducts

Border Hex 7 series limbs are a niche market focused at those looking for something different and that are willing to pay for that difference

I have had two people in the last year to me mention this .........they said in the grand scheme of things single strings in general are very inexpensive when comparing them to custom firearms and or knives for example

We all know what a custom rifle goes for they start at 5 k

Take a look at a MS Bowie knife or a Tony Bose slip joint .... They go in the thousands

Some here do not like SIDS way of promoting his wares ..... Some do

Sid is throwing up his thoughts and the direction they are taking their co

These threads usually go long and seem to get a lot of attention so for what ever reasons they are garnering attention

I for one enjoy them .... Even thou I am not smart enough to understand all the technical mumbo jumbo I like seeing people break away from the conventional norm. I find it interesting and even though I love conventional limbs I'm sure glad I live in a world that has people like the Sids experimting and driving in different directions .... I know what I feel and I am fortunate enough to have access to a lot of different bows so these threads are valid and informative to a guy like me

I respect your opinion you know that and again I stress I think Sid uses Hoyt because they are the gold standard

Earl Hoyts designs dominate the market so it is only natural to use them as the standard of that school of thought

I hope this makes sense

 

[JParanee]

Allow me to make an example, now this is purely target archery thinking here. Why on earth would anyone pay $900 + for a set of your limbs that are based purely in speed, and low brace height, when I can buy a $300-400 set and shoot nearly as fast? If speed were the only thing I was chasing? The simple truth is, for a decent set of arrows weighing in at 6.5 to 7 gpp complete, I can push the limbs I already own well over the 200fps mark and keep my forgiving brace height? All for about $90. The whole Hex 7 marketing the only 0.5 # gain per inch doesn't mean a hill of beans to me because holding 45# is equal across the board. Also in my example you shoot as low as 34# otf and shoot 221 fps.,. Ask me how I know. I also shot those limbs at that gpp for over a year.

Jeff

For me it's not just the speed it's the feel

I like the draw cycle , compactness and craftsmanship

Just like a fine custom anything no one needs it but if you like it you like it

If you like conventional limbs hopefully when we get together someday you can shoot my CV limbs on my WF 19

For feel and performance and price they are an outstanding limb

 

[Mo0se]

No Sid, I didn't miss it... Remember your other thread regarding Hoyt Formula dying more so? Your words not mine. I gave you a free lesson in economics, I'm also aware of all your products. But I can tell you that may in fact have the best hunting/performance bow in existence. Kudos for that!

 

[Mo0se]

It is rough JP but true.. I'm sorry buddy... But you have to realize these limbs are not a Ferrari to everyone. I mean no disrespect to anyone here... I just call it the way I see it. Sometimes my filter breaks. It's just my opinion... Nothing personal guys, but I'm done here.

 

[Mo0se]

JP I'll pm ya buddy

 

[DDD]

as for your question.
which forum do you think suits our company best?
which forum is the forum that is the most forward thinking?
which forum are you going to get the most "archery" thinking. Not the blinkerd thinking from a archery monoculture?
here on tradtalk, you get flight archers. Barebow, Target, Stumping, Hunting, Short bows, longbows. Primative bows, Historical facts, modern facts.

I have nothing against you either Jeff.

though im not sure I understand what the compactness of the bow at BH has to do with bow length.
for example. if you take a tape measure round the recurves, straight across the bow, to round the recurves. a covert Hunter is longer than a conventionl bow by a very very small amount. so a 62" widow is like a 62" Covert all bar 1/2" and a 70" WIN&WIN is the same measurement tip to tip, round the recurves to a 70" covert.

its just the covert is a more wrapped up at BH. opposed to long and tall. but once you get to full draw. both bows have the same string angles?

does that answer your questions?

Maybe this helps?

Dan

 

[kenn1320]

There is more to the hex and cv limbs than bh and speed. They introduced high TS and some commented that was unforgiving, yet now other limb companys are bragging about their increased TS. Are those same people avoiding new TS limbs by others, or eating crow? What happens if Hoyt introduces a new limb with 7" BH and you try it and wow, scores didn't go down. Do you avoid it with the old unforgiving argument or eat crow?
My scores suck compared to most, but I dont notice my hex6.5 being unforgiving. The arrow goes where its pointed, if it doesnt I screwed up. Whats the most forgiving limb, Ill go try to buy some points. :lol:

If you guys arent tuning using bh and just adjusting it by sound, how is that tuning for forgiveness? Why not set it at max manufactures bh for most forgiveness?

 

[Grantmac]

I have a <29" draw but shoot a 70" bow because it is more accurate and forgiving. I think that is likely due to the brace height and in fact I think the string angle is working against my face shape to some degree.
I've shot 66-70" bows with BH from 6.75-9.5", the low BH combo shot the worst consistently. Things start to get better past 8" and seem to peak at 9" but I'll merrily shoot a 9.5" BH for indoors.

Some bows are not forgiving and can make you question your abilities. No performance is free. It's when you ask for support from the manufacturer and get told that it's your abilities at fault and not a compromise in the design of the product that I have issues.

Grant

 

[rsarns]

There is more to the hex and cv limbs than bh and speed. They introduced high TS and some commented that was unforgiving, yet now other limb companys are bragging about their increased TS. Are those same people avoiding new TS limbs by others, or eating crow? What happens if Hoyt introduces a new limb with 7" BH and you try it and wow, scores didn't go down. Do you avoid it with the old unforgiving argument or eat crow?
My scores suck compared to most, but I dont notice my hex6.5 being unforgiving. The arrow goes where its pointed, if it doesnt I screwed up. Whats the most forgiving limb, Ill go try to buy some points. :lol:

If you guys arent tuning using bh and just adjusting it by sound, how is that tuning for forgiveness? Why not set it at max manufactures bh for most forgiveness?

Kenn, How do you know we didn't? How do you know what we did or did not try? LOL, enjoy the koolaide.

 

[rsarns]

I have a <29" draw but shoot a 70" bow because it is more accurate and forgiving. I think that is likely due to the brace height and in fact I think the string angle is working against my face shape to some degree.
I've shot 66-70" bows with BH from 6.75-9.5", the low BH combo shot the worst consistently. Things start to get better past 8" and seem to peak at 9" but I'll merrily shoot a 9.5" BH for indoors.

Some bows are not forgiving and can make you question your abilities. No performance is free. It's when you ask for support from the manufacturer and get told that it's your abilities at fault and not a compromise in the design of the product that I have issues.

Grant

Well said.

 

[Str8 Shooter]

Sid,
Comparing a 70" Hill to a 70" Olympic bow doesn't mean much. They are too different. How does a simple 70 " one piece longbow have anything in common to a 70" Hex 7 limbed ILF rig, in complete target regalia, other than a similar brace and length?

Anyone can go on the general archery forums and read hours worth of threads regarding brace height and shoot ability. Compound forums have these arguments crop up weekly. There are the performance guys who argue short brace bows don't give up forgiveness and the accuracy guys who claim the opposite. Wanna cook your noodle? Read about the differences in parallel limb bows and upright limbed bows and how it dynamically effects brace during the shot.

As I've said, the newer tech is interesting and exciting to see. But, just because new materials enable new designs doesn't mean it overcomes the negatives those new geometries present. A large hook is like a large cam. Large cams spool in the string faster and technically support the string longer, too. But, the large cams also magnify the effects of torque. A compound has extremely stiff limbs, steel axles, and long risers. The torque a shooter imparts doesn't move those components much. But what happens if a person torques hard enough? It's either a derail or a way off center shot. Why? The torque has to go somewhere, it doesnt simply dissapper.If the limbs, cam, etc can't absorb it it goes one place, the string and arrow. Aggressive curves function similarily.

This is maybe why the new, big hooks are so polarizing. People have tried them, tried the recommended brace height, tried higher brace heights, and still found them wanting. That's their experience. As a manufacturer it would probably be better to accept that and thank them for trying your product rather than try to say they didn't tune them right or explain why they are wrong. That doesn't get people wanting to try out newer versions, which may be more forgiving, because people won't invest significant amounts of money in a company they feel downplays their opinions. That's the downside of a company spokesperson coming onto these forums. If you ask for opinions but generally just argue you run the risk of alienating people. Probably why you don't hear of Hoyt or Win Win or anyone else doing the same.

 

[kenn1320]

Kenn, How do you know we didn't? How do you know what we did or did not try? LOL, enjoy the koolaide.

I used the word "If" Ren, which if you do tune bh by groups and not by noise, then the comment does not pertain to you. Sorry you didnt like the grape(hex), did you try the cherry(cv) flavor?

 

[rsarns]

I used the word "If" Ren, which if you do tune bh by groups and not by noise, then the comment does not pertain to you. Sorry you didnt like the grape(hex), did you try the cherry(cv) flavor?

Thats funny..LOL Nice comeback on the flavors. No, I had tried the 5W's, 6H and 6H BB2.... . sending the rest of my comments in regards to this via PM as I do not want to start a war on here.....

 

[cch]

I like that Sid comes on here and participates in these threads. I wish more people did it. David Soza got beat up so bad by people that he ended up quitting archery all together. And he had many more brilliant ideas that we never got to see. There are a lot of people who like companies creating different products that are not the norm. If you don't like a product after giving it an honest try there are many more companies out there to try next. Even Border has several different styles of limbs. So one limb isn't for everybody. They are just proud of something they came up with that no one else has.
Chris

 

[Mo0se]

There is more to the hex and cv limbs than bh and speed. They introduced high TS and some commented that was unforgiving, yet now other limb companys are bragging about their increased TS. Are those same people avoiding new TS limbs by others, or eating crow? What happens if Hoyt introduces a new limb with 7" BH and you try it and wow, scores didn't go down. Do you avoid it with the old unforgiving argument or eat crow?
My scores suck compared to most, but I dont notice my hex6.5 being unforgiving. The arrow goes where its pointed, if it doesnt I screwed up. Whats the most forgiving limb, Ill go try to buy some points. :lol:

If you guys arent tuning using bh and just adjusting it by sound, how is that tuning for forgiveness? Why not set it at max manufactures bh for most forgiveness?

You wanna buy points cheap? One word... Winex. You asked.

 

[Hank D Thoreau]

I got through three pages and had to stop. What I see as Sid's point is that sometimes we have to challenge what we believe to be true if we are to continue to move forward. There are rules that have been applied for many years that were constructed around a particular bow geometry. There are beliefs that are based on conventional knowledge. We need to revisit these old paradigms and determine whether they are helping us or holding us back. I do this for a living to help companies get better. I also did it as a scientist. As such, I am inclined to carefully consider alternative opinions, or changes that buck conventional wisdom. Sid did not bash Hoyt. He simply used Hoyt as an example. If higher is better, why don't folks shoot 10 inches. Well, maybe the answer is that the bow is designed to perform better at 9 1/4. So Border designs a bow that is better at 7 inches. At the same time they show that lower brace height does lead to less forgiveness. Is ths surprising? Maybe, if we are talking about the same bow geometry as the Hoyt. We are not. So maybe the real answer is that bows are less stable when they are shot at brace heights above and below the range that the bows are designed and optimized for,whether we consider that high or low. I have shot low brace height bows for some time now. I also shoot high brace height conventional bows. Many of my PR's are with low brace height bows. I also have a long 32 inch draw. With a low brace height I have the arrow on the string longer than most anybody here, except maybe Matt Potter. I don't seem to have a significant problem with stability. Of course, I have always had a long draw, so maybe I have been held back my entire archery life. Perhaps I would shoot like John Demmer if I had a 28 inch draw and a high brace height. That would significantly decrease the amount of time the arrow is on the string, which would limit my impact on the arrow.

 

[rsarns]

I like that Sid comes on here and participates in these threads. I wish more people did it. David Soza got beat up so bad by people that he ended up quitting archery all together. And he had many more brilliant ideas that we never got to see. There are a lot of people who like companies creating different products that are not the norm. If you don't like a product after giving it an honest try there are many more companies out there to try next. Even Border has several different styles of limbs. So one limb isn't for everybody. They are just proud of something they came up with that no one else has.
Chris

Nice comments Chris, although I disagree with the first sentence, the rest pretty much sums it up for me. I like that companies are pushing the envelopes, would we have 800 HP production cars rolling off the line if people didn't do it? I have and always will be one of the people who is always in search of the next best thing in limbs and risers (anything for that matter), as I truly believe in the "better archery through aggressive spending". Heck I have probably as many sets of limbs in my shop as anyone. Its just the super curves in my humble (or not so) opinion do not offer me what I strive for in a limb. There have been a couple I have tried that were close, but I keep going back to conventional limbs. A driving force for me of whether I will keep trying a companies equipment is also based on customer service, if that company delivers that, I stay with them. I had several conversations recently in Vegas and was glad to find out I am not alone with that.

 

[cch]

I thought winex limbs were OK. But they cost me a tournament when they broke halfway through. And I didn't have anyone to talk with about getting replacements or a discount on a new set. So again one limb is not for everyone

 

[Hank D Thoreau]

I like that Sid comes on here and participates in these threads. I wish more people did it. David Soza got beat up so bad by people that he ended up quitting archery all together. And he had many more brilliant ideas that we never got to see. There are a lot of people who like companies creating different products that are not the norm. If you don't like a product after giving it an honest try there are many more companies out there to try next. Even Border has several different styles of limbs. So one limb isn't for everybody. They are just proud of something they came up with that no one else has.
Chris

Yes, and now we have a DAS Tribute bow being made. Hey, not everyone is open to change. Innovation means investment, risk taking, free thinking, and convincing folks to abandon old ideas and try new ones. You have to be an evangelist and help push new ideas. Some will succeed while others fail. I would rather have Sid attempting to move archery forward than being stuck shooting the same bows we have shot since the 50's. Heck, maybe we should ditch the fiberglass and carbon and go back to true stickbows.