Trad Talk Forums banner
21 - 40 of 42 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,004 Posts
Switching to a heavier arrow is NOT going to make "instinctive" range compensating easier.

As other are saying - at longer ranges favor an aiming system. I would add IMO the best way to learn to shoot instictive is to learn to gap and do it a lot - the ability to shoot instinctive will come naturally with repetition.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
953 Posts
So, keeping things instinctive, how do you guys cope with this. Is it all about experience and practice at longer distances or just getting stronger limbs?
It's just practice! You get to learn your bow, yourself, and after a while your bow arm just floats to where it needs to at greater and greater distances. Instinctive shooting is exactly that, a test of instinct, and those instincts can become highly refined with experience.

If you are loving the challenge of shooting instinctive (this I understand!), then stick with it. You can become very accurate this way at a distance (with work) and it's hugely rewarding.

In simple terms though, it sounds like you want to increase your 'point on', the distance at which your arrow tip/point at aim is on the target, to hit that target. For this you'll need to lower your grains per pound of the arrow, and/or yes bump up in poundage. On one of my bows (heavier), I shifted my point from 32m to about 40m shooting split finger instinctive. I had to drop arrow weight to a little over 9GPP to get that increase in point on. You may have to go lower. This has allowed me to be a lot more accurate at 30-40m distances. At under 20m, the unconscious gap became larger, however. A trade off.

I would build a few light arrows and play around, but be sure to not go lighter than what is recommended for your limbs.

One final thing. Are you anchoring below the chin?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
21 Posts
Discussion Starter · #24 ·
It's just practice! You get to learn your bow, yourself, and after a while your bow arm just floats to where it needs to at greater and greater distances. Instinctive shooting is exactly that, a test of instinct, and those instincts can become highly refined with experience.

If you are loving the challenge of shooting instinctive (this I understand!), then stick with it. You can become very accurate this way at a distance (with work) and it's hugely rewarding.

In simple terms though, it sounds like you want to increase your 'point on', the distance at which your arrow tip/point at aim is on the target, to hit that target. For this you'll need to lower your grains per pound of the arrow, and/or yes bump up in poundage. On one of my bows (heavier), I shifted my point from 32m to about 40m shooting split finger instinctive. I had to drop arrow weight to a little over 9GPP to get that increase in point on. You may have to go lower. This has allowed me to be a lot more accurate at 30-40m distances. At under 20m, the unconscious gap became larger, however. A trade off.

I would build a few light arrows and play around, but be sure to not go lighter than what is recommended for your limbs.

One final thing. Are you anchoring below the chin?
Thanks mate, all good advice. My current arrow is at 8.85 gpp and I'm shooting split fingers, index finger at mouth's corner.
To be fair, after 8-9 years of shooting olimpic and compound target I've just picked up a hunting recurve and start shooting and it felt amazing, especially hitting the bulls eye at 20yd so easily. But like you said need more shooting at longer distances. Then the drop of the arrow surprised me and I thought there's something wrong with my setup or technique.
Don't know the initial speed of the arrow so I've approximate it at 190fp and used one of the online arrow drop calculators and it seems about right, the 10" drop.
Also, just learned about this "point on distance" I'll have to find it. 😉
Thanks for the encouraging words.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13 Posts
The effect you're describing with the tennis ball/badminton analogy does exist, usually with extreme foc and/or too big fletching. But, like Coodster said, that doesn't seem to be the case with your set up. I'm susceptible to collapsing or dead release form issues after shooting a bunch of arrows which can look like what you describe. I think, the advice so far from the more experienced people is probably where it's at for you.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
21 Posts
Discussion Starter · #26 ·
Sounds like you're point-on at 20.
You'll need some shorter and/or faster arrows to push that out a ways.
I had to look up about this "point on" and If I got it right, the tip of the arrow is well below the target so I don't think the 20yd are the point on of this set-up. I still have to find it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
21 Posts
Discussion Starter · #27 ·
From the sounds of it to me, your equipment is doing what it’s supposed to. Your shooting a lighter shaft and smaller fletching.. weight will play into trajectory but if I’m reading correctly it’s your aiming system or lack of it.
If instinctive is how you choose to shoot that’s fine but you are going to put in the time to practice at much longer distances so your brain picks up the distance and the arrow drop so it can compensate.
your gear isn’t holding your arrow back it’s your aiming system or lack of an aiming system holding you back.
not being a jerk, don’t know how else to put it.

I have similar equipment specs and it’s possible to shoot much much farther.

Chad
The effect you're describing with the tennis ball/badminton analogy does exist, usually with extreme foc and/or too big fletching. But, like Coodster said, that doesn't seem to be the case with your set up. I'm susceptible to collapsing or dead release form issues after shooting a bunch of arrows which can look like what you describe. I think, the advice so far from the more experienced people is probably where it's at for you.
I'm not contesting my lack of experience in shooting instinctively and it is my choice, yes, to shoot like that. I like the idea of aiming subconsciously... for the rest I have sights and scopes. Of course there's a learning curve and the lack of clickers, back walls and hinge releases will be a problem for a while but I'm in for the journey too, as they say, right? But yeah, there might be a dead release now and than :) It's just that the 10" drop took me by surprise but now I understand, it's normal and I shouldn't have asked about it before research it more. Shooting 10-20 yards is fun and if that's all I can do so far I'm happy with it. I will invest more time in it.
The trouble is, I think I'm the only one shooting instinctive at my club everyone ells is gapping or string walking so no one to learn from, internet is my only source.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
424 Posts
Thanks mate, all good advice. My current arrow is at 8.85 gpp and I'm shooting split fingers, index finger at mouth's corner.
To be fair, after 8-9 years of shooting olimpic and compound target I've just picked up a hunting recurve and start shooting and it felt amazing, especially hitting the bulls eye at 20yd so easily. But like you said need more shooting at longer distances. Then the drop of the arrow surprised me and I thought there's something wrong with my setup or technique.
Don't know the initial speed of the arrow so I've approximate it at 190fp and used one of the online arrow drop calculators and it seems about right, the 10" drop.
Also, just learned about this "point on distance" I'll have to find it. 😉
Thanks for the encouraging words.
Point for your setup will be out near 50 yards.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
13,841 Posts
shoot 5-10 arrows at your "normal" 20 yards then go to 25 yards and shoot 5-10 arrows - - and make adjustments to get to center. shoot 5 when you find center.
repeat several times going from 20 to 25 and back to 20 again.
You will see what you need to do to hit center at 25, and you will remember it, going from 15-20-25-20-15 yrds.
It's all repetitions & memory. Getting used to it, the differences. down the road you can work 30 yards into your drills. I've shot A LOT, and 25 yards is - - still - - a fairly long stretch for me.
I'm building a backstop for my bag target. Lost an arrow in late spring shooting over my bag target at I THINk 25 yards. Found the arrow THIS WEEK. haha it was pretty bedraggled.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
21 Posts
Discussion Starter · #31 ·
shoot 5-10 arrows at your "normal" 20 yards then go to 25 yards and shoot 5-10 arrows - - and make adjustments to get to center. shoot 5 when you find center.
repeat several times going from 20 to 25 and back to 20 again.
You will see what you need to do to hit center at 25, and you will remember it, going from 15-20-25-20-15 yrds.
It's all repetitions & memory. Getting used to it, the differences. down the road you can work 30 yards into your drills. I've shot A LOT, and 25 yards is - - still - - a fairly long stretch for me.
I'm building a backstop for my bag target. Lost an arrow in late spring shooting over my bag target at I THINk 25 yards. Found the arrow THIS WEEK. haha it was pretty bedraggled.
Cheers mate, sounds like a good plan. I'm already down to 9 arrows since I've started shooting instinctive. I need a safe method from now onwards.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
953 Posts
Steve's onto it here. I would only add that atop that 5yard increment would be to see if you can find a bit of a hill to throw a few tennis balls onto, within 30m or so at first if you can guess, and practice shooting at unknown distances. Move around, stop and shoot. This is great for building up your instinctive aiming abilities, and getting to know your bow.

Already hitting the gold at 20yrds shooting split finger instinctive already indicates you're well on the path and will be a strong trad shooter at greater distances down the road, with practice. Grouping at greater distances is just a matter of 1/ confidence 2/ more focus and 3/ greater refinement care as to form (especially things like grip torque, solid string hand and release, etc). This all assumes a good arrow tune of course.

Folk coming from system/assisted shooting to instinctive aren't often as lucky as you to be grouping so well already. Keep it up!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
21 Posts
Discussion Starter · #33 ·
Steve's onto it here. I would only add that atop that 5yard increment would be to see if you can find a bit of a hill to throw a few tennis balls onto, within 30m or so at first if you can guess, and practice shooting at unknown distances. Move around, stop and shoot. This is great for building up your instinctive aiming abilities, and getting to know your bow.

Already hitting the gold at 20yrds shooting split finger instinctive already indicates you're well on the path and will be a strong trad shooter at greater distances down the road, with practice. Grouping at greater distances is just a matter of 1/ confidence 2/ more focus and 3/ greater refinement care as to form (especially things like grip torque, solid string hand and release, etc). This all assumes a good arrow tune of course.

Folk coming from system/assisted shooting to instinctive aren't often as lucky as you to be grouping so well already. Keep it up!
Thanks for the kind words :)

1/ I still have to work on my confidence; shooting instinctive feels like tightrope walking without the safe-net. The other 2 points are always on my list. There's always room for improvement in that area.
I will clingwrap a few target butt leftovers from the club and use them for practice at unknown distances, thanks for the idea. Using some cheap aluminum arrows would be a good idea or should I be consistent with the arrows I'm using? Just trying to save some expensive arrows from damage/lost.

Cheers
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
953 Posts
shooting instinctive feels like tightrope walking without the safe-net.
Well put. It's not for the risk averse, just as with shooting hoops, darts, shotgunning, pitching, golf, axe-throwing (big fan), biffing footballs, ice hockey etc - all those sports that rely on trusting your mettle and instincts for accuracy. In my completely biased opinion, shooting like a demon without assistance at aim, and at unknown distances, is the true test of mastery with stick and string.

As for arrows, I reckon alu can be overall more expensive when learning because it's damn hard to unbend them if you hit the butt or a stone. I would go for cheap carbon reasonably spined for your setup. You can use the 3 Rivers Dynamic Spine calculator to get you in the ballpark with Gold Tip warriors. I really like the GT Hunters for sturdiness, but they're pricier. Accmos, at about $3 a piece are as good for hunting, 3D and stumping (Aliexpress, Amazon). Quite a few folk here shoot them. I have some. Tough as nails mate.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1 Posts
Hi,

Can any one explain me why my arrows are dropping so much after 20 yards? At 25 yards they drop about 10 in.

I'm shooting a 62", 35# recurve bow, with Easton avance arrows. 660 spine, 110gr points, 29.25in length and AAE WAV vanes. 308gr total weight. 29in draw lenght.

Are the arrows too light or what?
It is normal.
There is no such thing as zero drop.
The farther you go the more drop regardless of bow # or arrow weight.
But they are related.
You just have to learn what that drop is for your configuration and then shoot 1000 arrows to start... for instinctive. Your mind and body will come together eventually on it.
For example I shoot instinctive; #55, 27 draw, 630gr arrows. At 25 yards my drop is 12 inches give or take. On my 45# the drop is 16 inches.
At 15 yards there is virtually no drop for either bow... some might call that point on distance.

Isn't figuring it out for YOU half the fun and feeling of achievement? If not, one can always go to sissy bows - compounds: ;)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
21 Posts
Discussion Starter · #36 ·
It is normal.
There is no such thing as zero drop.
The farther you go the more drop regardless of bow # or arrow weight.
But they are related.
You just have to learn what that drop is for your configuration and then shoot 1000 arrows to start... for instinctive. Your mind and body will come together eventually on it.
For example I shoot instinctive; #55, 27 draw, 630gr arrows. At 25 yards my drop is 12 inches give or take. On my 45# the drop is 16 inches.
At 15 yards there is virtually no drop for either bow... some might call that point on distance.

Isn't figuring it out for YOU half the fun and feeling of achievement? If not, one can always go to sissy bows - compounds: ;)
Hi, thanks for answering.
I'm aware of the drop but not having any experience with longer than 20yd distance I didn't expect to be that big, which is not that big according to the Laws of Phisics :).
Anyway I'm glad I've asked, I've learn some other things in the process ...and yes, it is part of the fun!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
15 Posts
Thanks everyone, all good, fair points!

I'm not that new to the sport as new to instinctive shooting. Mostly olimpic/compound target shooting without bothering about the ballistic much. Start shooting instinctive recently. So far I've been shooting with good results up to 20 yards but not further due to indoor limits. I was happy with the results and couldn't wait to have a crack at longer distances. But shooting outdoor, at longer distances been a surprise for me. The arrows flight looked really flat up till 20yd and suddenly dropping after 20yd. At least that was my impression. You all say that is all normal but it looked to my like the arrow was opened a parachute after 20yd.

So, keeping things instinctive, how do you guys cope with this. Is it all about experience and practice at longer distances or just getting stronger limbs?

Would a heavier arrow be more intuitive? I mean, it will fly slower, yes; with a higher arch, yes but will not have a more intuitive, easier anticipated trajectory? Like the way a badmington shuttlecock flies vs a tennis ball (I'm exaggerating a bit here).

Thus, I'm not arguing about the physics laws here but maybe there is a better more intuitive setting here, bow-arrow-archer.

Experimenting in archery is a bit expensive, therefore the reason to throw at you guys my silly questions before hurting my credit cards.

Thaks all,
Cheers

May the form be with you all!
Yes, experience and practice is important. But at longer ranges instinctive shooting starts to get harder. Do you know your point blank range with this bow and arrow setup? You may want to consider figuring out a gap to use at longer ranges. Instinctive up to your point blank range then gap beyond that range. Or practice a lot at long range to fine tune your instinctive shooting. I assume you are working on target shooting, paper target and 3D. If you are practicing for hunting be aware that 20 or 25 yards is the max. range a majority of traditional archers will use for taking game.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
953 Posts
One of my favorite videos on this, from a Welsh instinctive master, and multi-time champ in Europe. It's about feeling your gaps, not 'knowing' them. This can only come with practice. This then frees you up to have no need nor care for the distance, just focus on a spot (up until your point on), trust the process, and yourself, and release. I believe that with practice and discipline anyone can shoot instinctive as well, or close, to the likes of Welch or Hughes.

Shooting starts at 4min

I like how Longbowguy on here put it once, "don't aim, yearn".
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
21 Posts
Discussion Starter · #39 ·
Yes, experience and practice is important. But at longer ranges instinctive shooting starts to get harder. Do you know your point blank range with this bow and arrow setup? You may want to consider figuring out a gap to use at longer ranges. Instinctive up to your point blank range then gap beyond that range. Or practice a lot at long range to fine tune your instinctive shooting. I assume you are working on target shooting, paper target and 3D. If you are practicing for hunting be aware that 20 or 25 yards is the max. range a majority of traditional archers will use for taking game.
No mate, haven't had the chance to figure that out. I'm waiting for better weather and some time to go to the outdoor range.
I don't have an actual plan what I want to shoot, not hunting - my wife will burn al my archery stuff - but 3D sounds very appealing.
I think I'm doing well up to 20yd, at least well enough to not give up 😁
Colorfulness Arrow Paint Yellow Precision sports


There's clearly a barrier at 20yd, probably from so many years shooting this distance. I'm never motivated by the scoring. I get more kick from a perfectly released arrow due to a good, fluent form than from some lucky Xs.
When shooting instinctive, there's no physical aiming system, you can only rely on your form and execution and each time am doing it properly the arrow is hitting the point am looking at! It really feels like Magic!
As soon as the weather allows it I'm going out and practice longer distances and will try to find that point blank.
Thanks for the advice
Cheers
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
21 Posts
Discussion Starter · #40 ·
One of my favorite videos on this, from a Welsh instinctive master, and multi-time champ in Europe. It's about feeling your gaps, not 'knowing' them. This can only come with practice. This then frees you up to have no need nor care for the distance, just focus on a spot (up until your point on), trust the process, and yourself, and release. I believe that with practice and discipline anyone can shoot instinctive as well, or close, to the likes of Welch or Hughes.

Shooting starts at 4min

I like how Longbowguy on here put it once, "don't aim, yearn".
I will definitely check that out.
As an experienced archer, in other fields, I say that I'm not aiming anymore. Is more of a connection with the point where the arrow will be after the release of it. I believe in determinism so where the arrow lands has been determined from the start. I'm looking at each arrow cycle as as a whole. So removing the aiming system from this cycle didn't change much of the way I'm connecting with the target.
So yeah, yearning sounds appropriate.

Cheers
 
21 - 40 of 42 Posts
Top