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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have a reasonable understand but would like read a good and detailed overview.

Im mostly interested in the torque imparted by the hand and the by the arrow itself pushing on the riser. Im not to interested in torsional limb torque except in its relation to the arrow pushing on the riser.

And I understand the basics that stabilizers reduced the effects of torque but they can also mess with the balance between the limbs if they are off center.

Any suggested reading?
 

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Does Jake Kaminski have anything on this? This sounds like the kind of thing he would do something on. You are like to find more info from the Olympic side where this is studied very carefully.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I doubt Oly archery wil focus so much on the torque and displacement induced from the arrow being fired its much more of an issue with set up that arent essentially centershot I think. But Im open o all sources of course.

I have seen good videos from Jake that look at aspects but I have seen one synthesizing an over all perspective ion it.
 

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I don't know if this helps? It's part KSL, Al Henderson, Rick Mckenney and a few others. Believe it or not I was stupid enough to post it on the Leatherwall!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Grip

If you don't like this regimented/form orientated shooting, you don't need to comment. DON'T DO IT BECAUSE I DO IT, DO IT BECAUSE IT MAKES SENSE TO YOU.

Grips are EVERY important, because they're one of the two places the archer is in contact with the bow. In addition, it's the last place the arrow can be adversely affected by the archer.

Al Henderson says that it takes the brain 70 milli-seconds to give the body a command. Which means that the brain can give 14 commands in a second. What does this meant to our grip? To me it means that the grip better well be as comfortable as possible. I think relaxed is a key word. When your brain gives the command to release, you don't want one of the next 13 to be “get rid of the tension in the grip”. (Please don't comment if you think it's only 6 commands or 36 commands, it's the POINT we're trying to make.)

To me this rules out the high grip. If you just put your hand out naturally, in order to get your hand into the position for a high grip you have flex the wrist down, which puts tension in the forearm. I feel that tension is going to be one of those 13 commands next in line. A good thing the high grip has less contact with the bow. This probably can result in less left and right torque, but there's also up and down torque. With the high grip having the bow ride in the web between the thumb and forefinger it can teeter totter up and down.

The low or medium is used by most current champions particularly the low according to Rick McKenney. The reason is because once an archer learns to relax the wrist, it's easier to relax the hand. If you look at most compound grips these days you'll see that most are very low, almost vertical. This prevents that teeter totter that I mentioned above.

While I'm here, most compound grips are very thin. I don't care how big your hand is a fat grip gives you more area to torque. For years I've been saying if you want to tighten a screw, would you get more torque with a screw driver that has a handle with a half inch diameter or 2 inch diameter? (we're looking for LESS torque) Low and behold, this last winter I was reading “Archery Anatomy” and there's a diagram with screw drivers and benefits of a low THIN grip. The book goes into high grip problems in more detail than I care to get into.

Most of those comments are bow related. Not all though. Let's get a little more specific on what we do with our hand and fingers. I'd like to keep Henderson and McKenney in mind, but they're shooting with a sling. Most of us need to grip the bow in some way, because of the extra second or two that it would take to put on a sling. By the way, I've shot a couple of animals with a sling and I don't think it would ever be an issue. Most of us just don't use them.

This is for my ideal grip. My longbow makes me make some slight modifications.

The knuckles should be at a 45 degree angle. The bow should ride on the edge of the life line and on out to the thumb. I think those two should be standard for everyone.

My thumb points at the target. My forefinger is pointed at the ground, but is being touched by the thumb. The middle finger is on the very front of the bow and the two remaining fingers are curled and not really touching the bow.

This grip should be consistent with the bow grip wet or dry and the bow hand wet or dry. My prettiest bow has checkering. I believe it's a deterrent to consistent placement. Prevents the hand from sliding into place. Still looks good though.

When working on your own grip for consistent placement put a magic marker line between your thumb and forefinger. Keep note of what's comfortable and consistent keeping in mind the suggestions above.. Try to get the mark in line with the same spot on the bow. If you put a mark on the bow it will rub off once you know your spot. Line up the magic marker spot on your hand and on the bow and you should be consistent.

Bowmania

I should add that shooting an ILF recurve, my middle finger is not on the grip at all. Thumb is pointing to the target and forefinger is pointing down, but touching the front of the riser.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Thats good post. I was more wondering about the physics of the bow here.

But your post gets at something I thing about a bit. If you have a loose grip - the best (lowest torque) plane for your grip may not be vertical.

Imagine using a sling. But when you pull back the arrow using a release that incorporates a swivel. The bow is going to natural settle into its lowest torque angle. Now you have 2 competing factors. The angle of the bow most conducive to aiming and a good release vs vs the best angle for your wrist and hand to be with respect to ergonomics.
It seems the best solution is to shift the orientation of the grip so that the most comfortable bow hand angle can achieve the neutral torque position while keeping the riser best aligned with your body(vertical for most.)

If Im right about that. It would mean that while a narrow grip is good properly positioned smooth bumps to create a smooth channel between the thumb and fore finger would be best.

I would assume most people if trying to use a riser thing grip and a sling - make it work by altering the orrientation of the hand.
 

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Arrow behaviour in the lateral plane during and immediately following the power stroke of a recurve archery bow
James L Park
First Published November 9, 2012
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Probably good stuff - but it would take me $130 to read that stuff.

Theres knowledge for academics and knowledge for everyone else.
 

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I can't find a single picture of a world level barebow champion using a low or narrow grip.
 

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Al Henderson says that it takes the brain 70 milli-seconds to give the body a command. Which means that the brain can give 14 commands in a second. When your brain gives the command to release, you don't want one of the next 13 to be “get rid of the tension in the grip”.
I think some up to date knowledge of nerve conduction velocities will demonstrate that Mr Hendersons opinion is no longer valid plus the idea that the entire CNS works at 14Hz is also incorrect
 
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Phil, I may have said that it was a claim by Al Henderson, but I'm sure it's not his expertise. He probably used someone else's research. It may be 71 milli-seconds and 12 commands. The point is that the subconscious can do more than one thing faster than the conscious brain.

Grantmac, You'd really have to argue with Ray Axford author of 'Anatomy of Archery'. Frankly most of the book was over my head, lol. Looking at the Lancaster Classic the last few years I don't see anyone shooting a high grip. As to thin or thick, it's pretty hard to see that when they're holding the bow.

Bowmania
 

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I know grip is crucial. I recently built my own ILF bow. I left the grip "fat" so I could shape it as I saw fit. That turned out to be an interesting journey.
I had several ideas in mind and they worked.

First. A group angled to my hands natural cant. This is the angled hand position you often see in Olympic shooters. It kept my elbow out-of the way. Reduced the amount of tension I applied to "correct " a grip on a straight gripped bow.

I took the riser and held it at arms length in a relaxed , natural grip with my eyes closed.
Did this in front of a mirror . Worked it until I got a perpendicular to the ground angle when I would open my eyes.

Now I had my grip angle. Which is close to a medium.

Then I strung the bow and worked the area under my lifeline and thumb pad portion of my palm until the bow felt even under tension. I actually shot it quite a bit during this stage.

I worked a left hitting tendency until it hit dead center...same arrows. I could feel the bow wanting to twist or rotate around the vertical axis until I got the grip to fit my hand and draw straight back without wanting to rotate the riser.

This was the eye opener for me. Answered why some of my bows I struggle with tendencies to hit left.

Now I literally have a bow that shoots the most forgiving center line of any bow I have!

All the custom made bows from different bowyers...with different generic grips etc.
Some really good, some just good.

It is in the grip....and yours may be different than mine..
 

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David Garcia would be an example of a very successful barebow archer who uses a high grip, but most use a medium.
None of the winners are shooting a narrow compound-like grip.

Trust me I went down that road trying to combat torque and get a steadier bow arm. It just doesn't work as effectively as a grip with settles the force higher.
I went so far as shooting a Nilo off the metal which is as close as any 25" gets to a compound grip.
 

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There have been several torqueless grip designs (mostly for compounds) over the years with bearings mounting the part that touches your hand to the part that attaches to the bow. I even remember a gimble mounted grip design. If torque was a significant accuracy issue they would have taken over a large share of the target bow market.
 

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??? Look at the compound bow forums. Whole threads on torque tuning! That's why all the good rests are able to move back and forth so you can torque tune. This ability to torque tune in the rest, probably negated the price of Fancy gyros and bearing grip gizmos.

We really don't have much tunability in trad other than a limited shelf area and grip if you are willing to customize it.

Ever heard of DAS? Jaeger?
How many different grips can you buy for a DAS ILF bow? There is a reason...

 
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