Some thoughts on Camo

[Curtiss Cardinal]

The post Boho made asking what out favorite camo was got me thinking about the subject of camo in general. I thought about the natural camo of animals. Some are camoflauged to protect them from predators. If the goal is to fool a predator not prey this camo should not be emulated for hunters. There are predators that have natural camoflauge to hide them from prey. Tigers, cheetah, leopards and jaguars coats all all patterned to aid them in their hunting. So are lions when you consider the habitat they hunt in the Savannah. I did some research at if a leopard stays still, even out in the open, he is invisible to his prey at 5 yards. That is effective camo. Leopards hunt a lot like traditional bowhunters. they set up ambushes from treestand positions and they spot and stalk. Jaguars do the same. Both have similar coats. No large predator in the wild is green or looks like a pile of leaves or a group of branches. No prey animal is green, unless you refer to insects and lizards. I have little doubt that the most popular camop patterns are designed to fool hunters and not game. Just my quarter :2cents: adjusted for inflation.


:bow2: :jesus: :amen:

[Boho]

That's a good point. But I'm not sure what the woods/plains are like down there. I know here in MS in Oct thru 1st of Nov it's all green and thick as hair on a dogs back. The green camo works well early season but then I change after that.

[mysticguido]

Deer are brown and gray
Bear are black,blue,white,brown,blond,cinnimon,rust
Turkey are black,red,blue,white,brown

these are just 3 game animals that are hunted in the USA, but I don't see green in there camo.

[Scooter]

Any body seen the natural gear pattern. It is dominated by greys and seems to look very neutral. Seems to be one of the better of the new camos.

[DAS]

The only game animals or predators that see in color are birds. All the rest see in black and white. Seeing in black and white enables them to detect movement more easily and improves the resolution of their vision. Prey animals more often key off of shapes to alert them. That is why many predators have patterns that break up their outline. Just a black outline of an owl or hawk is enough to send every rodent in the area into hiding. That is also why you can hunt with blaze orange camo for anything but turkey. For most hunters, an all gray pattern would be just as effective as colored. Most camo is not designed for best effect however. It is designed to sell camo to hunters! The most effective camo for hunters would be something that completely destroys the human outline. That would look more like a jesters suit than a hunting set-up though, so what you get is fully coordinated Mossy Oak, or Realtree. Then you end up looking like a human shaped blob of Mossy Oak that animals can still pick out. That's the insanity of marketing!

[Esquire]

I hunt on the ground. The primary factors to me seem to be movement and wind. I won't buy camo these days. I do like a face net, because my head is the hardest thing for me to keep still.

But a checkered wool plaid is ample, as far as I am concerned. I have some 10 year old real tree stuff and some army surplus stuff, but my next purchase will be some quality wool.

I am frequently very close to deer (relatively frequently) on the ground and I just don't think modern camo is much of a factor.

[Ted A. Young]

I think Esquire hit the nail on the head! Being older than dirt, in thw olden days all must folks wore was red and black checker woolies. Wind directions first and movement second! :2cents: :shooting: Notice how my shooting has improved?

[Albertakid]

I think the idea behind the sticks and twigs camo like mossy oak and real tree is alright, but I only have one word when it comes to camo ASAT I have tried everything from blue jeans on up and have been pretty successful just sneaking up on things in general and have never been in a tree, but last year I picked up a light 3-d suit from asat that is made of mesh and covered with a leaf type cut out and the results spoke for themselves I was in and around elk everyday for two weeks and as long as my friend the wind was in my favor they had no idea.

To prove my point about how effective this stuff is to my hunting buddy I walked right at a cow elk in an open sage brush field and although I only moved when her head was down I closed the distance from 60 to about 16 yards entirely in the open and she would look up at the sounds of me walking with a puzzled look and then go back to feeding. Now maybe a guy can do this wearing a red plaid shirt and blue jeans and if he can I will tip my hat to him and burn my camo, but I know for a fact this stuff breaks up your outline and makes it very hard for elk and deer to decifer what they are looking at.

Now this being said if I didn't have this pattern and predator was not available I would be going with earth tone plaids and carhart pants before ever buying a real tree or mossy oak type camo.

Jordan

[Curtiss Cardinal]

Jordan, I agree about ASAT and their 3D suit.



:bow2: :jesus: :amen:

[thisbucks4u]

Another vote for ASAT. That leafy suit is good stuff. For you guys that have it. Try having a friend put it on and walk in the woods about 20 yards from you at a slow pace. It is almost like a friggin optical illusion. Really neat stuff, worth the price.

[Papabull]

The most incredibly effective camo I've seen in predatory animals is always in those predators that must have game wander within striking distance in order to have any success at all. Those animals that are able to pursue prey animals have an enormous advantage over those that starve to death of they are seen by their prey before they strike. Certain snakes, lizards and some bottom dwelling fish come to mind. Their hunting methods typically require them to situate themselves in a likely position, blend in to their environment so as to be undetected and wait, unmoving and silent until their quarry approaches close enough for a successul strike. There are quite a number of predators that don't have such wondrous camoflauge but they have the advantage of being able to overtake their game and bring it down regularly enough for them to avoid starvation - and even most of them would have difficulty eating regularly without sick, weak, young or injured prey around to increase their likelihood of success.

I'd rather think of myself as a wolf or a cougar than a copperhead lying in wait under a log but I guess the reality is that for me to be a successful hunter with a short range weapon like a bow, patterning my hunting methods after a copperhead or a halibut is more likely to be successful than patterning my hunting methods after a wolf or mountain lion - and that includes making myself blend into my surroundings until I am, for all intents and purpose, invisible.

I know there is a school of thought that comoflauge is totally unecessary, but I guarantee those guys have never hunted turkey or pronghorn. Simply staying completely still can be enough to get whitetails within range as long as cover is used and you happen upon a deer that lets it's curiosity get the better of it. It's still a good possibility that the arrow will pass over top of the deer in such a situation. Just getting close isn't enough. Getting close without the deer even suspecting your presence is critical. If they think you may be a human instead of a stump, your chances of making a successful shot go way, way, way down.

[Esquire]

"I know there is a school of thought that comoflauge is totally unecessary, but I guarantee those guys have never hunted turkey or pronghorn."

I have never hunted turkey or pronghorn. And I am always willing to be educated. I am not quite of the school you mention, because I rely upon face nets and cover and odd body positions and some camo.

I have been sort of arriving at the conclusion that most commercial camo is overrated and that other factors are probably more important - all things being equal.

That is: give me wind and movement (or stillness) and take away my camo before you load me up with modern camo and make me hunt downwind without stealth!

[tuffshot]

Most camo looks like dark spots to deer, the trick is to blend in and there are some that do in so many situations but not all. They say deer has poor eye site but they sure pick each other out in the woods from a good distance, and that is not just from smell. So the blend factor among other things such and wind direction plays a key roll. Heck, from a tree stand I have shot them with carhart bibs on and a chrome stablizer on the bow. :sbrug:
And turkeys, it's a good thing they can't smell. :)

[Curtiss Cardinal]

"Certain snakes, lizards and some bottom dwelling fish come to mind."

PapaBull no disrespect intended but none of these hunt big game nor are any more than 1 foot off the ground.
The most effective human made camo is a ghillie suit and it doesn't really look like anything; but is remeniscent of leaf litter, grass and shrubs and bare ground, rocks, etc. Of prints ASAT and Predator(original) offer the best concealment/pattern breakup and roughly resemble animal predator camo.

:bow2: :jesus: :amen:

[thisbucks4u]

Ghillie suits are neat. I have one myself. I'll still take the ASAT. JMHO, but I'd rather be unseen than be a seen indecernable vertical pile of leaf litter that wasnt there yesterday. For Turkeys, I still take my ghillie. Im sitting against the base of a tree with my gun. For bowhunting gimme the ASAT Leafy suit.

[Scooter]

Mike,

The leafy suit is designed to be a cover system correct? By that I mean it is designed to be worn over your normal garments and you need not order a + size to fit correctly. Meaning if you wear a large in most of your close you order a large suit.

Any problems with clearance in the arms chest? I'd like to try one but don't know anywhere they sell them where I could try it on first.

[Cato]

Does ASAT make the 3D suit in something light enough for warm weather? Where do you buy it?

[Scooter]

Cato,

The vanish pro system looks light and meshy. http://www.asatcamo.com/
I may have to pick one of these up.

[thisbucks4u]

The one I have is a mesh suit with the 3D die cut leaf design. I wear it in 90 degree weather in Texas, and 30 degree weather in Ohio. Only thing I do different is the layering.

BTW I have the pro vanish set up. I would recommend it to any one.

[Papabull]

No disrespect taken at all. I agree that the Ghillie suit is about as good as it gets but disagree that it's more of a predator camo. I put it in the lizard and Jewfish class of camo that's broken and resembles nothing much at all except a 'blob" of something that looks indistinguishable from the rest of the "something" that surrounds it.

The requirement for camo effectiveness varies from game animal to game animal and also to hunting styles. The goal is to prevent the game from recognizing us as a threat. That can be accomplished by (a) not being seen (b) not being recognized when seen (c) not being heard (d) not being smelled.

The whitetail evolved into a very successful animal in a woodland environment with lots of covering folliage, trees, logs, bushes, etc., and often the limited vision being rather confusing with shifting shadows and broken patterns making visual identiication of anything at a safe distance rather unreliable. It's sense of smell and hearing became it's most dominant method of detecting danger because relying primarily on vision to detect danger meant an early demise living in habitat that's so rich in concealment opportunities. What visual acuity they have is almost entirely based on movement and is only a backup to their hearing and scent, which they trust a lot more. If you are heard (making unique human sounds) or smelled by a whitetail, they normally do no second guessing of their identication. You're busted and they're gone. If they see you, however, more often than not, they will wait for a confirmation by nose, ear or by tell-tale movement.

Camo for whitetails need only break up the outline somewhat and the most effective camo, also makes it dificult to detect movement. But whitetails can be successfully harvested wearing almost anything as long as the eyes and ears are baffled.

Most predators rely very heavily on their eyes and then either nose or ears. Birds - no sense of smell, but their hearing is good and their eyesight is so keen that it's incomprehensible. Omnivores usually don't see particularly well but usually have amazing noses. Plains animals - eyesight all the way. They usually have good noses, too, but they MUST rely on their eyesight since they are usually visible to their predators from quite a distance, making it easy to maneuver into position to stalk upwind.

Camo isn't magic, but it always helps to be difficult to notice or recognize, of course and since every game animal uses vision as a tool for detection to one degree or another, the camo can only help; with some animals it helps a little. With some, concealment or very effective camoflauge is absolutely vital. And the closer you need to get, the more the sliding scale moves to the high end.

[Pinelander]

Lots of good stuff, guys.

I can only say this - primarily have used ASAT (or woodland snow camo) for 15 years and Fratzke's pattern before that. I believe ASAT is the best form of breaker-upper available today, whether in a tree or on the ground.

[Esquire]

What concerns me about most of the 3d camo is noisiness. How much of a factor is it for you guys who expect up close and personal encounters at ground level?

[Papabull]

For whitetails, it's worthless if it's noisy. As I think I explained in some detail earlier, camoflauge makes it very difficult for a deer to recognize you as a bambi-busting urban ape but their visual acuity is not their primary defense. If they hear you, they'll have you pinpointed instantly and even if they still can't recognize you as a threat while you're holding your breath, the instant you move, you'll be busted. Once they go from their normal hyper-paranoid mode into paranoia psychotic episode mode, they pay acute attention to the place where they thought something might not have been quite right.

[Bill Carlsen]

Esquire: I have both a leafy suit and a lightweight ghillie suit (rancho safari). They are both extremely quiet. However, I have run into a few guys in the woods, actually at their cars coming out of the woods, wearing leafy suits they got at Wal Mart. They seemed to be made of a stiffer material than mine and were noisy to my ear. They seemed to make a 'rustling " sound. Don't know if washing/wearing those suits quieted them down any but I would recommend a higher end leafy suit if that is where you are headed. After I got my ghillie suit my wife took ownership of the leafy suit. IMO both are very effective. :2cents:

[Cato]

Bill,

What do you think about the Cabelas light weight ghillie vs the ASAT leafy pro system advantage thing scooter referenced above? The ASAT system is more the leafy thing. I wonder if you see merrits of one vs the other from your experience? I like the looks of the ASAT, and the big cammo pattern, but I have never used a ghillie. The originals are way hot for hunting in the South.

Thanks
Cato

[Bill Carlsen]

Cato: I don't know quite what to say as I do not have experience with the ASAT stuff. It is all good. The leafy suit I had worked well. On a pig hunt in upstate NY I was drawing on a pig and there was another guy in a tree stand about 50 yards away. He never saw me until I drew on the pig. With the ghilie suit i had a near experience last year. Shot over a doe. She and her companion disappeared down an embankment. In about 10 minutes they were back with another deer and feed to within 15 yards of me. I had a strap on tree seat that I was sitting in on the ground. They worked their way to my right which made shooting difficult as the tree I was sitting against didn't allow me to come to full draw. I short drew and figured they were close enough for me to connect...darn they are fast. The one I shot at ducked (jumped the string) and the three of them commenced to run about 80 yards and continued feeding. I have had numerous similar experiences with both outfits but I think the ghillie is somewhat better. I have been stared down several times with the leafy suit but not yet with the ghillie...I get a glance and they just keep coming if I don't move or sneeze or do something stupid. Once the deer got so close that my breathing tipped them off (I was somewhat excited and breathing heavily). By the way, if you get a leafy suit wear dark clothing underneath it or you will stand out like a sore thumb. :2cents:

[Cato]

Bill, you've got mail.

Also, the main reason I'd look at the ASAT would be to wear gym shorts and a t-shirt under it, so if it needs dark underclothes, I'd lean towards the exetreme light Ghillie. Down here, it is often in the mid 80's and humid throughout the first 8 to 10 weeks of the season.

All my buddies down here say I'm crazy, but I just want to try it off the ground. Ergo, I want to try some system.

Thanks for the help.

Mitchell

[Papabull]

Cato, have you looked at the Hunt-tech (I think that's the name). I picked up a couple suits from Cabelas last year that were touted for hot-weather hunting and I love 'em. They're quiet, comortable and VERY cool. The slightest breeze goes right through you. I think the camo probably is of the "greenish blob" variety, but I think it's adequate and it's just a pleasure to wear in really warm, humid weather. Just a thought.

[Cato]

Thanks Bull. I'll do a search.

[thisbucks4u]

Mitchell
if ya promise not to stank it all up with that mississippi sweat Ill send you my asat suit to try out for a couple days. Interested?

[tuffshot]

http://www.underbrushblinds.com/

This company makes blinds and camo, I have used their camo for deer and turkey hunting and is light weight and can be worn over any clothing if sized big enuff.

[Scooter]

Thought I'd pull this thread to the top with an update. I just received my new ASAT 3D vanish pro suit. Very nice. I think it will be just the ticket this year. Here in Michigan the temperature will very through a pretty wide range through the year. Opening day might be 70-75° and down to 0° come December. The mesh make up of this suit should allow it to be plenty comfy in the warm months with just some x-static undergarments, yet it's roomy enough to allow for layering in the cold. Can't wait to try it out.

BTW the suit is design as a cover system so as the website says order the size you normally wear not bigger. I typically wear a large and that is what I ordered and it is plenty big enough.

[Curtiss Cardinal]

Ordering My ASAT 3D Pro Vanish Suit this weekend. I will be hunting several different states this year and I really like finding a place on the ground to stand and wait to ambush deer and I really think this will help. I've pretty much decided ASAT will be the only camo I buy from now on. Further I have decided to do all I can to promote ASAT as I really believe it is the best camo on the market.
:bow2: :jesus: :amen: Curtiss

[O'B]

One thing that is great about the suit is you can tailor what you wear underneath it to match the weather conditions at the moment. Very versital(sp?) Enjoy it.

[SteveMcD]

what TJ said!!!!!!!! :highfive:

[Chris wilson]

I just like playing camo ninja. :D

[Curtiss Cardinal]

I agree and disagree T.J. Most camo out there IS made to fool hunters not game. I also agree that being motionless is important and a lot of hunters can't do it. BUT Camo doesn't help the listless but some patterns like ASAT really do help conceal a hunter. Some camo gives some hunters more confidence. Confidence is important.Therefore I can't agree that camo is junk.



:bow2: :jesus: :amen: