the cost of ultimate accuracy

[rusty craine]

the cost of ultimate accuracy is almost a loss if innocence. You take a lovely pass time of shooting stumps, missing squirrels, and playing archery horse with your buddies, turning it into at worst the monster in the closest you feared when you were a kid. You now have a second job that could well be filled with more stress and more emotional highs and lows then most mere mortals want to experience. You see with ultimate accuracy comes the test of ulitmate accuracy, the competitions.

The external view of competitions is light heart fun and friendly camaraderie. The internal view of competitions can be much different and much less wholesome. The internal view can end up in enough self imposed stress and pressure to cause target panic and a loss of prospective. I have personally seem competitors prospective degard in to emotional termoil from petty squabbling to fist fights. This is at least an indicator of way too much stress in your pass time.

You can not help but wonder why there is the quest for ulitmate accruacy. Alfred North Whitehead thought God was most evident in man's quest for perfection. If true ultimate accruacy is not a quest for the faint hearted or weak of spirit.

rusty

[segolden]

Is competition actually a pastime? Personally, I always thought competitive sports were more like a substitute for combat. Certainly the Maya thought of it that way, as anyone who lost a ball game was beheaded! Only a very few athletes achieve that state where they are actually competing against themselves rather than others, a much vaunted ideal that I think motivates a very limited group of participants. Most serious sportsmen and women are actually on a quest for domination and power, while a lesser number simply want to be recognized as the best in their field, and a tiny collection of individuals are out to push their personal limits to the maximum achievable. Cynical, perhaps, but having been close to some professional sports, I can testify to its validity. It is why a search for perfection can be so perilous.

Whitehead, however, was correct in a general sense. Man is not a static animal, despite his desire for stability. Particularly in the West, humanity has always sought to perfect both itself and its environment. Most societies have tried, from a desire for personal power, to suppress this trend but have never permanently succeeded. It is the human being's passion for what is called in my own tradition "tekun alum", to reform the world in imitation of heavenly perfection. The desire for ultimate accuracy is just one aspect of man's search for God's perfection in the world, a fruitless search that will never be fulfilled in a material universe, for all it really is is an unconscious need to return home.

[Papabull]

I see things like collecting stamps and coins and maybe carving figurines as a hobby. Archery, however, I consider a sport. Sports are competitive and I consider competition to be the salt that gives any sport it's zest and flavor. without it, it's just a mundane hobby, which is OK for hobbyists but rather pedestrian for people who thrive on seeking their best performance and putting it to the test.

My wife likes playing table tennis or bowling or playing pool as long as it's "non competitive" but I can't play that way. Playing for the sake of the social activity alone just makes me want to stick a fork in my eye. I'd just as soon attend an afternoon tea.

I suck at golf, but I do play it competitively. I just play it poorly and am very inept at that competition. I still enjoy playing it, though, and I wouldn't if it was a "fun' round" where no one kept score. It just makes the activity meaningless, in my opinion.

I guess that's just how I'm wired. I don't go hunting to see the wildlife. I go hunting to sucessfully take game. I might not and that's OK, but I know for sure what I"m out there for and I don't think to myself, I don't really care if get anything or not, I'm just glad to be here. Same when I'm fishing. I don't regret trips when I don't bag anything or catch anything because I'm just paying my dues. You gotta have days like that sometimes... so maybe next time I'll get 'em. :) Same with competition. If not today, maybe next time. If today, maybe next time again. :) You don't have to feel like losing was a big waste - it was just another chance to win and... well, didn't work out for you that day. Oh well.

[Albertakid]

The thing about losing is that it should drive us to win just like winning does.

I know several people that have excelled in a sport untill they lost and then they just fell apart look at some of the boxers out there that have gone undeafeated and then get knocked down some of them never come back the same others come back even stronger!

For me success in archery is the product of practice and determination and that is what makes doing well so gratifying if you put a ton of work into something shouldn't you care about the results?

Jordan

[Papabull]

The nice thing about Archery, Jason, is that when you lose in Archery, you aren't coming back from getting beaten black and blue and knocked out, LOL. You're just coming back from not shooting all that hot. Only one guy can win the field on any given day, but the rest of the field isn't bloody and beaten to within an inch of their life, which makes it a lot easier to shrug your shoulders, grit your teeth and just come back harder and more intent on winning next time. :lol:

[Albertakid]

That is why I am eyeing competitive archery for when i quit rodeoing the competitor in me will need something to do so why not a sport that i can enjoy that does not require a membership to the local emergency room!!LOL

On second thought I am not too old to start cage fighting!:)

[Esquire]

I'd like to hear how you define "ultimate" accuracy.

Ultimate accuracy is a goal - and it's good to set our sights on the heights. Just like it's good for boys to have heroes.

No one has attained the end of accuracy - everyone has work to do.

Each person should set their own goals and then work hard to attain them. The result for me of a goal attained is personal satisfaction.

If the quest for a better shot is resulting in a loss of innocence, then one should ease up.

I'd agree that if your personal drive is pushing your life out of balance, then it is time to seek to regain that balance.

But I would not agree that loss of innocence is any way the inevitable result of the effort to improve accuracy!!!

Archery was a lovely pastime for me for years when I shot a compound. When I finally knew that I could put three arrows in a milk bottle top at 50 yards almost every time, it became even lovelier.

As my shot with a traditional bow improves, so does my enjoyment of archery.

And there is nothing like the comraderia of a spirited competition with a closely matched competitor!

Mike

[rusty craine]

Mike - i am using the expression "ultimate accuracy" as a conceptual expression to set up the idea of accuracy being of over riding importance. Well like maybe to win a state championship, get into the belt buckle winners, or even the lack of ultimate accuracy making on compramise their ethics. I have been involved in several shoot where I know for a fact scores were not reported accurately and honestly. Actually it was a conspiracy in that more than one participant. So in this case untimate accuracy does not have to be actual accuracy :)

I honestly can not say the I would not cheat, lie or steal but it would have to for reason of far greater importance to my faimly's well fair, life and limb
than fluffing my ego with a $8 trophy.

I know that the greatest majority of the contestant enjoy the competition and in no way would degard their ethics and self esteem by cheating for point they did not earn. Still I think target panic is part of the same symptomology.

I would suspect the desire to be better shot and ultimate accuracy are for my argument's point two different things.

rusty

[Esquire]

Rusty,

Re-reading my post I see that I set up very different concepts with some casual phrasing.

For the point I was making I meant something far stronger than simply wanting to be better.

I guess I meant, even a man who is driven to be the very best shot he can be may still find a balance.

But I have played basketball with players who lied to their own coach about their practice percentages on say, free throws, to gain an edge in playing time or to quit early.

I never understood that. It wasn't hard to catch the "85%" free throw shooter when he could not do better than 50% on his best game day!

Mike

[rusty craine]

Mike - I think your points were excellent points from a mature prospective on life and what is important. Competition can be the pathogen that pushes a less mature prospective to things like using steriods, breaking a competitor knee, counting liners that aren't there, and a lot of things I've not even thought of yet.

Being the best shot that you can be is a fine goal, making sure I win some specific shoot is as less worthy goal. The dividing line is a bit harder to understand and define then you might think it would be.

rusty

[wesome]

QUOTE:I see things like collecting stamps and coins and maybe carving figurines as a hobby. Archery, however, I consider a sport. Sports are competitive and I consider competition to be the salt that gives any sport it's zest and flavor.more than

Now, PB, as a wood carver for over 25 years (www.picturetrail.com/daveswoodshavings), I can tell you I consider it much more than just a hobby!! Then again, as I have placed carvings in a few competitions, maybe it's a sport?? :>)

[Papabull]

LOL, Wesome.... OK, I stand corrected. :)

For whatever reason, I couldn't access your gallery, though. :(

[wesome]

It acts up sometimes- but it did open for me? Ah well, but I do have a pair of them (carvings) as my avatar. Not "figurines" though as the bull is a six footer. ...and you thought I shot those, huh? :>)

[Seven Arrows]

wesome

The link needs your username to access gallery. Try opening it and then copying the URL.

Tikkun alum.... mystic kabbalah... that's that stuff that Madonna and Dick Gere are into... the repair of the world and all that. Don't buy it myself. I don't believe that the world fell apart, I think the universe is trying to kill you...lol!

I like your approach PB.

I want to be the best shot. I enjoy being respected. I'm always competing whenever I shoot, whether alone or in a group, keeping score or not keeping score. What amazes me is that I keep getting better. I don't see it as a problem. It's a worthwhile accomplishment. I'm not yet too feeble or blind to pull a bow so I'll just keep on pulling and beating the younger guys when and where I can, or not, and that's OK too. Good fun all the same...

[Crowdog]

Shouldn't we strive to be the best we can be? Why should we settle for "decent" when there are ways to improve? Maybe i"m going to open up a can of worms and upset some guys, but hey, thats me, sorry.
But anyway, I'm playing with wood arrows, excellent, top quality stuff, but after to spin them, weigh them ,spine them, THEY STILL DON"T MATCH!!! And yes, it does effect accuracy, cause you can't be satisfied with unmatched arrows. And if you know they don't match, you can't have the confidence in them. There is better ways. If "top quality" wood lets you shoot 6" groups at 15 yards, what would quality carbons let you shoot at 30 yards? I'm sorry, but I can't settle for a limit on my shooting yardage, cause I know that I'm better then that.
Lets talk competition. I started on the 3D trail again. flying off to exotic locations, driving for six hours, to shoot a bunch on targets, loose a few arrows, and RELAX. (Yea, right, what a joke). In competition, if you ain't on top of your game, you're going down. No ifs, ands, or butts, you will loose. But you gotta learn from your mistakes. And if you can't handle the pressure, well, thats were target panick sets in. You see, archery is also a mental game. To want to win some shoot will make you strive for perfection, to be the best you can be. Yessir, you gotta know about your equipment, and believe in yourself. Relaxing comes after the shoot, not during it.

[abbgdr]

The concept of "competition" is something I have stuggled with for many years. The one "sport/hobby" that I have been involved with over the longest period of time in my life has been climbing, rock/mtn/ice. It for me was a sport that required the very best of a person physically, mentally and "spiritually". The competitive element was always with ones self and your ability to adapt to whatever the elements threw at you. Competitive climbing never did set well with me. I could never understand why a person felt the need to pit themselves against another person time and style wise within the context of the climbing enviroment. It seemed to me that it would only detract from from the intensely personal internal experience that climbing was for me. Climbing was something that was enjoyed at an almost spiritual level because of the severity of the endeavor and the breathtaking beauty of the enviroment it was preformed in. And yet even away from the organized climbing competitions there has always been intense rivalry and "competition" within the climbing community. And I'm not convinced that it in fact has been healthy. I have been on mountains where family men never made it back home because they made ego based decisions to adopt a method of climbing that would define them as cutting edge "competitive" climbers. I know that archery is seldom practiced in an enviroment where the consequences of failure are as severe, but,, the whole concept of having to measure ourselves against our peers seems to come from the same ego driven motivation... and I still have questions about it's validity. How does my personal quest for perfection relate to how I measure up to anyone else? Are my motivations based on fear or insecurity and the need to prove myself to someone else, or am I a participant in my chosen "sport" in order to challenge myself to master something that lays deep within? Perhaps competition is a shared journey where in our quest for self mastery and perfection we can coach, encourage and enjoy the comraderie of a shared objective. There's also alot to be said for the discipline of accountability. I know that in climbing an unchecked ego could kill me, maybe this quest for perfection in whatever endeavor we choose really starts with the mastery of the "self",, once that is the primary objective, where how I measure up to anyone else is irrelevant. I hope someday I'll be able to participate in archery competitions, and be able to enjoy the comraderie and the lessons learned.

[Papabull]

Competition is a natural drive for men and males of most, if not all, creature species. Archery competitions are a pretty good non-violent outlet for our competitive natures. :2cents:

[abbgdr]

Competition for the sake of competition seems to be exclusive to humans and seldom has the implications that competition for breeding rights, territory, or food has for the beasts that are driven merely by thier instincts for survival. It seems like competition is one way for us humans to attach value and meaning to an activity, and in so doing perhaps to gain self esteem in the process, depending on our proficiency within that activity. I guess I'm questioning a value system that is based on an "artificial" standard of measurement, or a standard of measurement that has so little bearing on ones actual survival or quality of life. Let alone a standard of measurement that takes no consideration of ones duty to family, or community. Forgive me for rambling, but I find this poignantly relative. I have been an athlete and a sportsman my entire life. I have hunted, fished, skied and climbed more than any three men would be glad to do in one lifetime. Being fiercely competitive, and gravely in need of self esteem I pursued all of these activities with a passion that bordered on rabid. Last year on my 49th birthday I was about 900 vertical ft off the deck hanging in my harnes shivering as the sun dissapeared from the face we were on, and it hit me,,, I wasn't having any fun... in fact I realized I really didn't even want to be there. How could this be,, for years I had defined myself by this very activity,,, so what if my marriages had gone to pot,, I could come out here and dance along the razors edge, I could walk where angels and mere mortals feared to tread. And now all of a sudden out of the blue I don't want to be here?? The very activity that I had ascribed such value too had lost it's meaning?? Where do you go from here,, there was nowhere else to go but down. In years past I would have gladly finished the climb by headlamp or if need be hung suffering in the dark till the sun returned to warm and light the way,, What had changed? How could something that I had attributed such high value to now seem so insignificant? Or maybe the more relevant question is why does it take so long for some of us to mature and embrace a value system that recognizes that duty to family and community are of significantly greater value than any of our artificial sports. Sure there are lessons to be learned from them, but at the end of the day what is it that really matters. It's curious what we each place value one and it deserves some honest scrutiny. For some an archery competition punching holes in paper or shooting at animal targets is doing battle, while for others it may be more akin to watching paint dry if thier idea of sport is scaling the heights and then base jumping or paraglideing off the summit. Whatever endeavor we choose as our "battlefield" hopefully it teaches us the lessons we need to learn.

[abbgdr]

oops,, my apologies papabull,, see what a competative dink I really am, I took your comments on how the males of the species are all so competative to mean that if I wasn't condoning competative sports I must not be much of a man,,, so then at the end of my little spiel I took a jab at target archery as not really being that intense or manly anyway.. It just goes to show what an arrogant egotistical dink I still am.. sorry about that. My relationship to sports and the value I've placed on them is an issue that I've really been confronted with over the past year. This has been a great thought provoking topic that has hit particularly close to home. Thanks

[JackNZ]

Those that win,
live longer,pass on their genes with the better mate,eat the better food,belong to the stronger tribe,enjoy the more comfortable life.

Those that lose,,,,don't.

It may be said that modern day competition is artificial,
the motivation is not.
We all know who the winners are,,,,,,,,

[Papabull]

Not to worry, abbgdr. That's why we have the Philosophical Archer forum, in the first place; to give us the opportunity to explore the mental and psychological aspects of our sport and human nature, too. :)

[abbgdr]

Thats what makes this site so great,, not just great archery info...

[Seven Arrows]

Those that win,
live longer,pass on their genes with the better mate,eat the better food,belong to the stronger tribe,enjoy the more comfortable life.

Those that lose,,,,don't.

It may be said that modern day competition is artificial,
the motivation is not.
We all know who the winners are,,,,,,,,


Bravo Jack! You got that one right!

[Desert Archer]

As a kid I was never any good at any of the team sports so I thought I was not competitive. Even when I got into field archery (16 - 17 years old) I had to be in church on Sunday when they had their shoots so I shot the course but didn't compete.

Much to my surprise, when I entered my first pistol match and got in a shoot off for 3rd place I was hooked. Spent the next 30 some years competiting with a handgun. When I got back in to archery it seemed natural to sign up for a shoot and try competition. I did awful that first time but was hooked again.

With both firearms and archery I was very involved and passionate about them but never neglected my wife, home or other obligations. Guess that's why in almost 50 years of shooting one kind of projectile or another (arrows or bullets) I haven't burned out. Sometimes the focus would change but the passion for directing a projectile to the inetended target has never changed. Don't know what I'd do if I couldn't shoot something.

Dave

[rusty craine]

abbdgr - I admire climbers. Not only for having the courage to do it but the strength to body weight ratio. I used to run and bike with a girl that was a very good rock climber. I used to go and belay her climbs. Gave it a try several times myself. I got stuck every time and my arms and legs would start going like a singer sewing machine :).

rusty

[abbgdr]

Rusty, that still happens to me when I get in over my head. I didn't mean to ramble on like I did, it was probably more therapuetic for me than anything. I really think it takes more courage to face the day to day challenges of family life and community service,, something I hope to get better at... age may mellow me yet. funny thing is I never expected to live this long.