Let's explore the Mystery!

[Esquire]

I recently asked a group of high school kids if they had any questions about God or the Bible or just life in general that had (1) never been answered at all, or (2) had never been answered satisfactorily.

All of them, without exception, were full of questions. Many Christians are afraid to face tough questions and admit that they don't know the answers. They seem to be afraid that it will reflect poorly on their faith, or something. But if we don't know, we should simply say so. I think many people would rather you stood beside them and faced the tough questions and looked for the answers together, rather than to try to force an answer.

Life is full of mystery . . . and so is faith. I think Christians should face such "mysterys" unafraid, and explore them with joy. Posting questions freely, without worry over what people will think is key to deepening our understanding of our life in Christ.

So let's explore the mystery!! Post your questions that have never been answered. Maybe they will have to go on seperate threads. Simple or tough, I for one am game to look em in the eye!!

[Cueball]

This is a tough one for sure. Let me first say that I agree with what you said. I like the tough questions they teach me alot and make me dig my feet in to get answers. In addition they always seem to ground me even more firmly in my faith. So here goes The Holy Trinity. God the father,son, & holy ghost. That concept is hard for me to get my hands around totally. I believe in the trinity but am not quite sure how to explain Jesus refering to God in the 3rd person. This should be fun.





.............................................Roby. .....................................

[Esquire]

Hey Cueball, why not just cut right to the toughest one?? :)

Didn't you see where I said all questions except those about the Trinity?! I'm kidding about not tackling it. But I'm not kidding about it being tough. However, I think it's really important.

TJ Craig started an interesting post on this topic on the old forum. I'd like to hear some input on this subject. Does it matter whether we believe in a Trinity? The word Trinity does not come up in scripture. Is it important that we see God as triune in nature? If so, why? And if so, how do we get our head around the concept??

What happens if we don't believe in a Trinity? As I see it, these are some of the questions and issues that are worth exploring. Maybe there are more.

[Cueball]

I honestly did not know that. I will do some digging in my bible and see what i come up with. It may not be mentioned but there are some strong reference to it. Or should I say to God and Christ being one. I would think we call all agree that the Holy spirit is the spirit of God. So if you can link Jesus and God as one then you have the God head the Trinity.

John 1 1-3
1. the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2. He was in the beginning with God. 3. All things came into being though Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

John 14 7-9
7. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him. 8. Phiip said to Him, "Lord show us the Father, and it is enough for us." 9. Jesus said to him, " Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, Show us the Father?



I don't think believing in the trinity is mandatory to salvation but would be concerned that it could be mis understood.

Let me just say this for the record. I think that there are a large number of christian who are going to be in heaven who have misunderstood scripture. I would guess that I will be one of them. There are a few items that can't be misunderstood and still have salvation and the concept of the trinity in my view is not one of those items. I just have a desire to understand what it is that I believe and be able to discuss that with both believers and non-believers. The truth is that if i am misunderstanding scripture it is my true desire to fully understand what it is that God wants me to learn from that scripture.



.................................................. ..Roby..........................................

:bow2: :jesus: :bow2:

[Esquire]

Hey Cue,

I just noticed where you are from. I spent some time in your neck of the woods, hunting the swamps around Brandon. My buddies Kendall and Dwayne Rutledge are from down there and I lived in Jackson for almost a year!

I'm gonna enjoy discussing the Trinity with you. Maybe we can teach each other something. I also think it will be just a matter of time before someone else chimes in.

I think belief in the Trinity is a core, or foundational part of our faith. I don't think fully understanding the Trinity is a requirement of being saved...if it were, very few and perhaps none at all would be saved!! However, denying the Trinity is fatal to our faith. If we don't believe in Jesus as God, eternally begotten of the Father, to use the words of the Nicene Creed, then we have placed our faith in someone other than the one who was able to do what was done on the cross.

With that being said, believing the Trinity is a far cry from understanding the Trinity! Although we may not achieve a complete understanding, we may hope to gain a better understanding.

Someday a Jehovah's Witness may come knocking on the door, and that understanding will come in handy!!

More on this later.

Mike

[WildmanSC]

Genesis 1:26] And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
[27] So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
John 10:[30] I and my Father are one.
John 14:[26] But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
John 15:[26] But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
II Cor 13:[14] The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.
I Peter 1:[2] Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Bill

[Cueball]

Mike, I think you caught one error for me. I agree that if you think that Jesus was not God then you have a major problem. I think the term that I should have used was understanding of the trinity.

I do believe in the Trinity. I just have a hard time with why Jesus always refered to God in 3rd person if it were really himself.

I heard this one time and it makes some sense but not a perfect fit for this application.

I am Roby Allen the son of James Allen.
The husband of Susan Allen.
And the father of Noah & Abby Allen

All three are me one in the same but three different roles. I just don't refer to myself in 3rd person to often.



.................................Roby............. ................................

And if I did ask myself questions I aint telling you guys. :)
:bow2: :jesus: :bow2:

[Cueball]

Mike, I forgot to mention your stay here in MS. I love Brandon and do some hunting here as well most of my hunting is about 45 minutes away. I work in Jackson. If you didn't notice Cato (Mitchell is from Clinton). Come see us some time.


..........................................Roby.... ..........................................

[WildmanSC]

Roby,

Look at Gen 1:26 and John 10:30 in my reply above.

Gen 1:26 "...Let us make man in our image, after our likeness..."

John 10:30 "I and my Father are one."

Even though these passages do not clearly state "Trinity" or "Triune Godhead", it is clear from reading them that it IS the case.

You know the great thing about the mysteries of God's Word is someday soon we will know the answers to everyone of them. He will tell us the answers when we are in His presence in Heaven!

Bill

[Esquire]

Roby,

I used to work for Patty Peck Honda. I was at a store they had called "the Other Place" selling high end used cars. The General Manager showed up unexpectedly one day and all the sales boys scurried for their cubicles to look busy. I was never much into pretense and I had done all I could do, including sell more cars than the other guys. So I just stood around while Ricky Lee sat in the showroom and watched me stand around, waiting...

Finally I propped open the doors at the end of the showroom and retrieved a magic marker from the front sales desk. As the GM watched I walked out into the neighboring sand lot, pacing 45 yards from the center of the showroom. At 45 yds I stuck the magic marker in the sand, standing it up on end. Then I walked back in. Ricky Lee just watched. No words had been exchanged in the hour he'd been there.

I went to my cubicle and retrieved my bow - an old Bear Whitetail II compound. Going back to the middle of the showroom I nocked an arrow and drew, looking across my peep sight at Ricky Lee who sat opposite me on a couch. Both of us in our white shirts and ties. After I shot I retrieved the magic marker, which I had hit and dented with the field tip. Returning, it I handed it to Ricky Lee and said, "That's how we do things in Kentucky."

He pulled his glasses down to the end of his nose and examined it, grunting. This was the only exchange we ever had while I worked at the Other Place. About a month later he shut that store down and moved me and one other salesman to County Line Road. Everyone else he fired. I know he was a hunter and I like to think he kept me on because I could shoot, but in reality it probably had more to do with the fact that I sold a lot of cars.

Being relatively honest, I never made any money on commissions and finally quit the job. Everyone I met thought I was a liar because I sold cars. I fixed that problem. Now I'm a lawyer! :)

Had some hard times and some good memories from Mississippi. I named my oldest boy after the son of a Baptist sunday school teacher who taught me to finish drywall and taught me alot about grace on the side. Bragg Drywall, if you ever need some good drywall work done! But that is another story...

Mike

[BLACK WOLF]

The existance of the Divine Trinity made sense to me when I looked at what made me...me.

I am more than a just a mind. I am more than just a body and I am more than just a spirit.

It takes ALL 3 to complete me just as it takes to ALL 3 to complete God.

He did make us in His image.

The Father = the mind
The Son = the body
The Holy Spirit = the spirit

Ray :cool:

[BowDonkey]

Thank You Blackwolf. That made alot of sense and something is clicking into place. Or at least attempting to.

[BLACK WOLF]

Your welcome BowDonkey.

He's another point...have you ever talked to yourself as when trying to make a decision or trying to understand something even if it is just in your head?

When Jesus prays and talks to God the Father, I don't see it as much different.

Ray

[Esquire]

Wondered when you'd show up to help us out, Black Wolf! Good to see you.

You know, God is fundamentally about relationship. His very essence and nature is a relationship. God is love. This love that defines his essence exists in the context of relationship. (Within the persons of the Trinity). To help us understand this truth about who He is, he made us for relationship as well. Adam was not complete without a helper. God made man in his image, male and female he created them. Male and Female are both equally reflective of his image. Yet we are so different from each other. Neither is more like God than the other, yet because we are so different, neither is entirely like God on their own.

Male and Female, properly joined together in marriage to become one flesh, and rightly related to each other and to God, are together more fully reflective of God than is either man or woman, alone. We don't understand God as fully in a vaccuum as we do in a (proper) marriage. We are made for relationship, even as he is. And of course, we are ultimately made for relationship with Him.

[BLACK WOLF]

Esquire,

I completely agree with you...good post!

Ray

[larry]

nice analogy Black Wolf!

larry

[WildmanSC]

Before we are saved, our trinity is body, soul and dead spirit. When we are saved and accept Christ as our Saviour the Holy Spirit quickens our spirit and gives it life. Our new trinity is spirit, soul and body, as long as we are operating under the control and power of the Holy Spirit. When we become carnal, and we all do, then we become body, soul and spirit (albeit the spirit is not under the control of the Holy Spirit as it must be for us to live a victorious Christian life).

When God, the Triune Godhead, created Adam and Eve in their image, they did so in the realm of their time, Omnipresence, with the view of man, Adam and Eve, being in the image of Christ the man, and in the image of Christ and His bride, the Church. They did this with foreknowledge, Omniscience, as it would be thousands of years before Christ would come to earth as man, and thousands of years more before His bride, the Church, is complete and meets Him in the air for the wedding feast. Is That Wedding Music I Hear? Hallaleuah! Glory to God! Even so, come Lord Jesus!!

Bill

[Bill McNeal]

The understanding that there is but one Sovereign God is the foundation of Christianity. Every single cult, group, collection, and religion that stands opposed to God, teaches {sometimes without knowing any better} that Jesus is not God, and/or that the Holy Spirit is not God, or that it is not the agent of Salvation. This is proliferated in many so called Christian churches where it is taught that there is a Father God, a Son God {Jesus}, and a Spirit God.

The "trinity" concept, though based partly in truth actually lends to confusion, for it teaches a "triune" nature of God, which is really incorrect, for through out Scripture we are continually told that there is but One God. The "trinity" concept is really more of a human conception of God, than one that is found via the Wisdom of the Spirit, but it still is based in partial truth nonetheless, therefore though I refuse to use the word "triune", or "trinity" in my teaching, I do not shy away from the fact that God does indeed say that "there are three who testify in heaven". In the human mind that in itself calls for the disconnection from Oneness, into triune. However If we read on the Scripture says that the "three are one", but this must be read in the Wisdom to understand it.

The reason that I do not teach, or suggest that a "trinity" concept be taught, is that the deeper triune doctrine teaches that the three parts of the "trinity" are distinct, and while we see numerous inferences to 'God the Father", and "the Son of God", and to the "holy Ghost", in Scripture, we need to understand that Jesus Christ who is called the "son of God" is also God the Father, and God the Holy Spirit. Let us read the prophet Isaiah as he speaks of the coming birth of Christ Jesus..........

"""For to us a child is born,

to us a son is given,

and the government will be on his shoulders.

And he will be called

Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,

Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Of the increase of his government and peace

there will be no end.

He will reign on David's throne

and over his kingdom,

establishing and upholding it

with justice and righteousness

from that time on and forever.

The zeal of the LORD Almighty

will accomplish this. """

Here we see Jesus being called a son, but also being called "The Wonderful Counselor", {Counselor being the Holy Spirit} and also He is called "mighty God", the "Everlasting Father"., that is God the Father. In John 10:30 Jesus proclaims........"I and the Father are One"

Many people teach that Jesus is simply one part of a collection, yet the fact remains that according to the Word of God, He is God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost. He is not a part of, but rather He is the total package, for to seperate the package defies Scripture which tells us that they are one.

One of questions that those who are taught falsely that Jesus is not God ask is the following......."Who was Jesus praying to in the garden, Himself"???

the answer is a loud YES!.......Jesus, was praying to Himself, because Jesus is God the Father. Sadly the human mind void of the Spirit cannot grasp the notion that the God who created the planet, and human beings, has the ability to decide to nestle Himself in the womb of a peasant girl, birth Himself into a dark world, live in a human body, and die a human death, and to enter hell, to pay their price, out of love for His children, that they might live with Him in eternity. This God even has the ability to disconnect Himself, from Himself so that His perfect Holy face would not look upon sin!. This is POWER of a Sovereign Lord who remains true to His Word!

When Jesus asked the Disciples........"""" Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves.""" ....He laid out in the open Who He Was, IS, and Will be.

Here we see Jesus promise Himself , the Counselor (the Holy Spirit} to His Disciples .............

""""If you love me, you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever– the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.

This is the awesome Truth that there is indeed one faith, one baptizism, and ONE LORD!. So beloved, as we ponder to grasp the mystery of the Gospel let us always seek the Wisdom of the Spirit, translated through Gods Holy text so that we may be able to answer all questions with regards to our faith, rather than leaning on the doctrines of man which simply confuse an otherwise clear Gospel.

Shalom!

[WildmanSC]

I do not intend to get involved in another series of longwinded posts on this or any other thread. I just have a couple of questions:

Who sits at the right hand of the Father at His throne in Heaven, even now?
Who is the Comforter, here on earth?

Bill

[Esquire]

Cueball,

I have been so time crunched lately that I haven't had much time to visit this thread. I did want to provide some basic orthodoxy, that is rooted in scripture and which has helped me understand this issue. None of my thoughts are original, they simply express the scriptural understanding held by the Church for centuries.

The word "Trinity" is a combination of 2 words, tri and unity. There are 3 basic concepts to remember: (1) there is one eternal God; (2) God is the Father and the Son (Jesus) and the Holy Spirit; (3) the Father; the Son, and the Holy Spirit are 3 distinct persons who exist at the same time.

We believe the Triune God is the Father, the Son and The Holy Spirit. (Matthew 28:19 - 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,).

God is the Father - There is a person called the Father who is also called God - (2 peter 1:17 - 17For he... [Jesus] received honor and glory from God the Father)

And the Son - There is a person called the Son, or Jesus, who is also called God - The apostle Thomas, after seeing the resurrected Jesus, said to him, "My Lord and My God!" (John 20:28)

And the Holy Spirit - There is a person called the Holy Spirit, who is also equated with God - In Acts 5:3-4 the Apostle Peter rebukes a man named Ananias, saying that he has lied to the Holy Spirit. Peter then continues his rebuke: "You have not lied to men, but to God." So lying to the Holy Spirit is the same as lying to God.

The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are 3 distinct persons - personal beings who possess will, intelligence, and emotion - who exist at the same time. The Father is not the Son, the Father is not the Holy Spirit, and the Son is not the Holy Spirit. Each one has an identity, although the 3 are in complete and perfect unity as the one God.

There are many examples in the bible of the distinction of the persons. At Jesus baptism the Father and the Holy Spirit are present. The Spirit of God descends like a dove, and the Father says, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." (Matthew 3:17).

This triune reality of God is hard to understand completely, because God is infinite and we are finite. Over the centuries, some attempts to explain and understand the triune nature of God have lead many away from Christian orthodoxy into heresy. A couple of heresies are worth knowing about, because, for one thing, they help identify problems with certain analogies. I'll discuss analogies briefly in a moment.

A COUPLE OF HERESIES:

Some said (and say) that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not God. For example they may say that Jesus is the Son of God, but not God himself; and the Holy Spirit is not God, but is rather a force that God uses to accomplish the divine will.

Others said (and say) that there is but one person in the Godhead, and that God acts in certain modes at certain times, so that He is sometimes acting as God, another time acting as the Son or the Holy Spirit. [This heresy is called Modalism].

These are heresies because they contradict scripture.

ANALOGIES:

I happen to like analogies. As long as I "see though a glass darkly" (1 Cor. 13:12) I think I will find analogies very helpful. However, they are limited, and sometimes contain the seeds of errors. Let me give some examples.

"Water exists as steam, liquid and ice." This is true about water, but one body of water cannot be all three at the same time. It must be one or the other. With God, the three persons of the trinity exist at the same time. The ice/liquid/steam analogy actually illustrates Modalism, a heresy.

Or someone may say; "I am three persons. I am a husband, a father and a (how about bowhunter)." This sounds like a good analogy, and it is better than the previous analogy, but again, it suggests modalism.

Another popular example is various analogies that suggest God is made up of parts: One pie, 3 slices - or St. Patrick's shamrock: one plant, three leaves - Or the egg: one egg = shell, white and yolk. These "parts" analogies suggest errors as well, because God is not made up of parts. For scripture on this we can look at Colossians 2:9, which states that in Christ "all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form." Is Christ a part of God? No!

IN CLOSING

Let me say that I do believe that since God is infinite and we are finite, there are a couple of things that are ultimately incomprehensible. That "God always is, and never was not," is one of those things. That "God is one God, three persons" simultaneously, is another.

Even though we cannot achieve full comprehension, I think God is well pleased when we try to maximize our understanding. I am a person who always wants to understand. It sometimes feels like giving up when I am forced to admit that something is beyond my understanding. And I do not like to "give up!" In truth, however, recognizing our human limitations is not the same as giving up.

I have always liked what G.K. Chesterton said about the mysteries of our faith in "Orthodoxy." He says that our life is full of paradoxes. What he found interesting, as someone who did not believe in God, was that wherever he found a paradox in life, he found an answering paradox in Christianity. So that the paradoxes of Christianity made sense of the paradoxes of life. Other religions, in attempting to answer everything, fell short of being able to do so. But Christianity, with it's sense of mystery and paradox, makes sense of the parts of life that other religions fail to make sense of!! Of course, he goes into numerous specific examples.

Let me reiterate, here at the end of this long post (sorry so long) that I have expressed no original thoughts here. This brief outline is one of basic Christian Orthodoxy. Others have done the real hard work. My acceptance of these basic tenets is based upon my own study of the bible and of church history. In this post I have leaned heavily upon the book "christian faith 101" by Steven Tsoukalis, which organizes the various scriptures in a very helpful manner.

In Him,
Mike

[WildmanSC]

Mike,

You have given the answer to my two questions in my previous post. Jesus Christ sits at the right hand of the Father on His throne in Heaven. And the Holy Spirit, or Holy Ghost, is the Comforter that was sent to Earth when Christ ascended into Heaven to sit at the right hand of the Father.

Now, they ARE three personages, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, but they are one God, in that they are of one Omniscient mind, are Omnipotent and are Omnipresent! The finite mind cannot comprehend the infinite and we weakly at best explain the infinite when we attempt to do so.

I do know Jesus Christ, the Lord, created the heavens and the earth before He came to earth as man, born or a virgin. He knew, however, BEFORE He created the heavens and the earth that He WOULD be coming to earh as man. He knew that the first man and woman He would create, Adam and Even, would fall to the temptations of the wily serpent and would eat of the forbidden fruit. And by doing so they would introduce unto mankind the knowledge of good and evil, i.e., the innate ability to know sin when they were doing it and when they saw it! Additionally, because they did so, they were ashamed and covered themselves. Praise the Lord, today our sins can be covered by the blood of the Lamb, Jesus Christ and Him crucified!!

Bill

[larry]

Esquire, you just took about 95 percent of what I was thinking, and stated it in your last post, and being as how I'm a two finger, point and peck typist,LOL, I'm truely thankful :)

larry

[Bill McNeal]

Some thoughts on the trinity doctrine........

""""""The origins of the Trinity doctrine are appalling. Like most historic issues pertaining to Christianity, there was much deceit and bloodshed. Many lives were lost before 'Trinitarianism' was finally adopted.

As many Christians know, the word "trinity" does not appear in the Bible. It doesn't because it is a doctrine which evolved in early Christianity. It was a manipulated, bloody and deadly process before it finally arrived as an 'accepted' doctrine of the church.



Flavius Valerius Constantius (c. 285-337 AD), Constantine the Great, was the son of Emperor Constantius I. When his father died in 306 AD, Constantine became emperor of Britain, Gaul (now France), and Spain. Gradually he gained control of the entire Roman empire.

Theological differences regarding Jesus Christ began to manifest in Constantine's empire when two major opponents surfaced and debated whether Christ was a created being (Arius doctrine) or not created but rather coequal and coeternal to God his father (Athanasius doctrine).

The theological warfare between the Arius and Athanasius doctrinal camps became intense. Constantine realized that the his empire was being threatened by the doctrinal rift. Constantine began to pressure the church to come to terms with its differences before the results became disastrous to his empire. Finally the emperor called a council at Nicea in 325 AD to resolve the dispute.

Only a fraction of existing bishops, 318, attended. This equated to about 18% of all the bishops in the empire. Of the 318, approximately 10 were from the Western part of Constantine's empire, making the voting lopsided at best. The emperor manipulated, coerced and threatened the council to be sure it voted for what he believed rather than an actual consensus of the bishops.

The present day Christian church touts Constantine as the first Christian emperor, however, his 'Christianity' was politically motivated. Whether he personally accepted Christian doctrine is highly doubtful. He had one of his sons murdered in addition to a nephew, his brother in law and possibly one of his wives. He continued to retain his title of high priest in a pagan religion until his death. He was not baptized until he was on his deathbed.



The majority of bishops voted under pressure from Constantine for the Athanasius doctrine. A creed was adopted which favored Athanasius's theology. Arius was condemned and exiled. Several of the Bishops left before the voting to avoid the controversy. Jesus Christ was approved to be "one substance" with God the Father. It is interesting that even now, the Eastern and Western Orthodox churches disagree with each other regarding this doctrine, the Western churches having had no influence in the 'voting'.

Two of the bishops who voted pro-Arius were also exiled and Arius's writings were destroyed. Constantine decreed that anyone caught with Arius documents would be subject to the death penalty.

The Nicaean Creed read as follows:

I believe in one God: the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible;

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God: begotten of his Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, through whom all things were made. . .

Even with the adoption of the Nicaean Creed, problems continued and in a few years, the Arian faction began to regain control. They became so powerful that Constantine restored them and denounced the Athanasius group.

Arius's exile was ended along with the bishops who sided with him. It was now Athanasius who would be banished.

When Constantine died (after being baptized by an Arian Bishop), his son reinstated the Arian philosophy and bishops and condemned the Athanasius group.

In the following years the political foes continue to struggle and finally the Arians misused their power and were overthrown. The religious/political controversy caused widespread bloodshed and killing. In 381 AD, Emperor Theodosius (a Trinitarian) convened a council in Constantinople. Only Trinitarian bishops were invited to attend. 150 bishops attended and voted to alter the Nicene creed to include the Holy Spirit as a part of the Godhead. The Trinity doctrine was now official for both the church and the state.

Dissident bishops were expelled from the church, and excommunicated.



The Athanasius (Trinitarian) Creed was finally established in (probably) the 5th century. It was not written by Athanasius but adopted his name. It stated in part:



"We worship one God in Trinity . . . The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God; and yet they are not three gods, but one God."
By the 9th century the creed was established in Spain, France and Germany. It had taken centuries from the time of Christ for the trinity doctrine to catch on. Government and church politics were the reasons the trinity came into existence and became church orthodoxy.

As you have seen, the Trinitarian doctrine came from deceit, politics, a pagan emperor and warring factions who brought about death and bloodshed.


THE CHRISTIAN TRINITY - ONE MORE IN THE PARADE OF TRINITIES
Why the original clamor to elevate Jesus and the holy spirit to positions equal to the Christian/Judaeo God? Simply, the pagan world was quite used to having "three gods" or "trinities" as their deities. The trinity satisfied the majority of Christians who had come from pagan backgrounds. Christianity didn't get rid of the pagan trinities, it adopted them as it did so many other pagan traditions.


OTHER TRINITIES
.
Hinduism embraced the triune godhead of Brahma, the god of creation ; Vishnu the god of maintenance and Siva the god of destruction. One of Egypt's many trinities was Horus, Isis and Osiris.

The founders of the early Christian church had no idea that the Trinity concept would evolve, be voted upon by politicians, forced by emperors and eventually become an integral part of Christianity such as we have it today. Is it any wonder that its "difficult" to explain?

Is there one Christian God or Three In One? The majority of Christian churches hold to the Trinity doctrine but there are still Christian church holdouts who reject the teaching. We now enjoy the freedom to believe either doctrine but at risk of ridicule if we choose non-Trinitarian beliefs.

Just like at Burger King, "you can have it your way". """""

Shalom!

[Bill McNeal]

Bill Lamb, to answer your question, it is Jesus who sits at the right hand of the Father. Now I have a question for you if you don't mind.....

is Jesus the Son of God?

is Jesus the Everlasting Father?

is Jesus the Wonderful Counselor?

what does "Wonderful Counselor" refer to?. Hint.........CAREFULLY read John 14:16-17

Esquire you said........"""The Father is not the Son, the Father is not the Holy Spirit, and the Son is not the Holy Spirit."""

Now I hear YOU telling us that, but where does Scripture tell us that?. BTW, what are your thoughts on John 14:17???........Who is this Counselor Jesus talks about, and what does Jesus mean when He says He lives with you, and will be in you???......Hint........this is pre penecostal talk/scripture we are dealing with.

Shalom!

[WildmanSC]

Some thoughts on the trinity doctrine........

""""""The origins of the Trinity doctrine are appalling. Like most historic issues pertaining to Christianity, there was much deceit and bloodshed. Many lives were lost before 'Trinitarianism' was finally adopted.

As many Christians know, the word "trinity" does not appear in the Bible. It doesn't because it is a doctrine which evolved in early Christianity. It was a manipulated, bloody and deadly process before it finally arrived as an 'accepted' doctrine of the church.



Flavius Valerius Constantius (c. 285-337 AD), Constantine the Great, was the son of Emperor Constantius I. When his father died in 306 AD, Constantine became emperor of Britain, Gaul (now France), and Spain. Gradually he gained control of the entire Roman empire.

Theological differences regarding Jesus Christ began to manifest in Constantine's empire when two major opponents surfaced and debated whether Christ was a created being (Arius doctrine) or not created but rather coequal and coeternal to God his father (Athanasius doctrine).

The theological warfare between the Arius and Athanasius doctrinal camps became intense. Constantine realized that the his empire was being threatened by the doctrinal rift. Constantine began to pressure the church to come to terms with its differences before the results became disastrous to his empire. Finally the emperor called a council at Nicea in 325 AD to resolve the dispute.

Only a fraction of existing bishops, 318, attended. This equated to about 18% of all the bishops in the empire. Of the 318, approximately 10 were from the Western part of Constantine's empire, making the voting lopsided at best. The emperor manipulated, coerced and threatened the council to be sure it voted for what he believed rather than an actual consensus of the bishops.

The present day Christian church touts Constantine as the first Christian emperor, however, his 'Christianity' was politically motivated. Whether he personally accepted Christian doctrine is highly doubtful. He had one of his sons murdered in addition to a nephew, his brother in law and possibly one of his wives. He continued to retain his title of high priest in a pagan religion until his death. He was not baptized until he was on his deathbed.



The majority of bishops voted under pressure from Constantine for the Athanasius doctrine. A creed was adopted which favored Athanasius's theology. Arius was condemned and exiled. Several of the Bishops left before the voting to avoid the controversy. Jesus Christ was approved to be "one substance" with God the Father. It is interesting that even now, the Eastern and Western Orthodox churches disagree with each other regarding this doctrine, the Western churches having had no influence in the 'voting'.

Two of the bishops who voted pro-Arius were also exiled and Arius's writings were destroyed. Constantine decreed that anyone caught with Arius documents would be subject to the death penalty.

The Nicaean Creed read as follows:

I believe in one God: the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible;

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God: begotten of his Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, through whom all things were made. . .

Even with the adoption of the Nicaean Creed, problems continued and in a few years, the Arian faction began to regain control. They became so powerful that Constantine restored them and denounced the Athanasius group.

Arius's exile was ended along with the bishops who sided with him. It was now Athanasius who would be banished.

When Constantine died (after being baptized by an Arian Bishop), his son reinstated the Arian philosophy and bishops and condemned the Athanasius group.

In the following years the political foes continue to struggle and finally the Arians misused their power and were overthrown. The religious/political controversy caused widespread bloodshed and killing. In 381 AD, Emperor Theodosius (a Trinitarian) convened a council in Constantinople. Only Trinitarian bishops were invited to attend. 150 bishops attended and voted to alter the Nicene creed to include the Holy Spirit as a part of the Godhead. The Trinity doctrine was now official for both the church and the state.

Dissident bishops were expelled from the church, and excommunicated.



The Athanasius (Trinitarian) Creed was finally established in (probably) the 5th century. It was not written by Athanasius but adopted his name. It stated in part:



"We worship one God in Trinity . . . The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God; and yet they are not three gods, but one God."
By the 9th century the creed was established in Spain, France and Germany. It had taken centuries from the time of Christ for the trinity doctrine to catch on. Government and church politics were the reasons the trinity came into existence and became church orthodoxy.

As you have seen, the Trinitarian doctrine came from deceit, politics, a pagan emperor and warring factions who brought about death and bloodshed.


THE CHRISTIAN TRINITY - ONE MORE IN THE PARADE OF TRINITIES
Why the original clamor to elevate Jesus and the holy spirit to positions equal to the Christian/Judaeo God? Simply, the pagan world was quite used to having "three gods" or "trinities" as their deities. The trinity satisfied the majority of Christians who had come from pagan backgrounds. Christianity didn't get rid of the pagan trinities, it adopted them as it did so many other pagan traditions.


OTHER TRINITIES
.
Hinduism embraced the triune godhead of Brahma, the god of creation ; Vishnu the god of maintenance and Siva the god of destruction. One of Egypt's many trinities was Horus, Isis and Osiris.

The founders of the early Christian church had no idea that the Trinity concept would evolve, be voted upon by politicians, forced by emperors and eventually become an integral part of Christianity such as we have it today. Is it any wonder that its "difficult" to explain?

Is there one Christian God or Three In One? The majority of Christian churches hold to the Trinity doctrine but there are still Christian church holdouts who reject the teaching. We now enjoy the freedom to believe either doctrine but at risk of ridicule if we choose non-Trinitarian beliefs.

Just like at Burger King, "you can have it your way". """""

Shalom!

Very Nicean history lesson, but, to which "...present day Christian Church" are youy referring that "...touts Constantine as the first Christian Emperor..."? Lot's of fluff, no Biblical references and purely the spewings of man.

Bill

[BLACK WOLF]

John 14:6-9 "Jesus answered, 'I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.' Philip said, 'Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.' Jesus answered: 'Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father.' How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves."

John 14:28 “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."

What do you guys make of these verses?

Ray

[WildmanSC]

Bill Lamb, to answer your question, it is Jesus who sits at the right hand of the Father. Now I have a question for you if you don't mind.....

is Jesus the Son of God?

is Jesus the Everlasting Father?

is Jesus the Wonderful Counselor?

what does "Wonderful Counselor" refer to?. Hint.........CAREFULLY read John 14:16-17

Esquire you said........"""The Father is not the Son, the Father is not the Holy Spirit, and the Son is not the Holy Spirit."""

Now I hear YOU telling us that, but where does Scripture tell us that?. BTW, what are your thoughts on John 14:17???........Who is this Counselor Jesus talks about, and what does Jesus mean when He says He lives with you, and will be in you???......Hint........this is pre penecostal talk/scripture we are dealing with.

Shalom!

Bill McNeal,

You didn't answer all of the questions I asked, but that's alright, that's the way the game is normally played, isn't it?

1. Is Jesus the Son of God? Yes

2. Is Jesus the Everlasting Father? No, albeit He and the Everlasting Father are each in the Godhead.

3. Is Jesus the Wonderful Counselor? No. I presume you are referring to Is 9:6 where two of the names given for "...unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given..." are wonderful and counsellor. You missed the comma between wonderful and counsellor. Have you heard the song "His Name is Wonderful"?

4. What does wonderful counsellor refer to? First of all as I've already pointed out, his name is wonderful applies specifically to Him, the Lord Jesus Christ. Secondly, John 14:16-17 very clearly points out the three personages of the trinity, even though you refuse to acknowledge it. In verse 16, in red letters in my Bible which means it's Christ Jesus speaking, He says "...I (Christ Jesus, the Son of God) will pray the Father (God the Father) and he shall send you a Comforter (God the Holy Spirit)..." The three personages of Almighty God are contained in this one passage. Bill, I don't expect you to comprehend it, I don't expect you to understand it, but, it is scriptural! They are three distinct personages, but one God. Look at Acts 17:29, Rom 1:20 and Col 2:9 and please tell me what the "Godhead" means to you.

Let me ask you one other question that is sort of off topic, but will possibly give us a measure of the difficulty being experienced. Do you believe the Church will be Raptured by Christ?

Bill Lamb

[Esquire]

Good questions Black Wolf,

I'm no scholar - but my basic understanding, aided by a greek lexicon, is as follows. Disclaimer: a theological amateur is about to go to the greek!

Jesus is establishing that He is of the same substance as the Father (seperate persons, one substance, one God). The Greek word for "to know" in these verses you cited is Ginosko. The same word is used each time.

[Ginosko: (1) To learn to know, come to know, get a knowledge of, perceive, feel; to become known(2) to know, understand, perceive, have knowledge of]

The Greek word for "to see" in the verses you cited to is Horao.

[Horao: (1) to see with the eyes (2) to see with the mind, to perceive, know (3) to see ie: become acquainted with by experience, to experience]

I believe that Philip is expressing a need for more evidence. He says "show us the Father." The word Philip uses for "show" in the Greek is Deiknuo [(1) to show, expose to the eyes (2) metaph. - to give evidence or proof of a thing].

Jesus gently responds by saying (my paraphrase) Philip, all this time with me and you still don't get it [Ginosko] do you? Anyone who has laid eyes on me, become acquainted with me, begun to understand me [Horao], has also begun to perceive, know and become acquainted with [Horao] the Father. Then Jesus says that part about the Father being in Him and He being in the Father.

The Greek for "in" is En [En is a preposition which means in, by, with, etc.]. Here Jesus expresses another asurance to Phillip that God the Son's will and essence are the same as God the Father's. Not that they are the same person,but that they are of the same mind, purpose, essence, etc.

As to John 28:14 I think we see an expression of the order that exists within the trinity. Order does not equal status, but the distinct persons of the trinity have distinct functions. When God the Son refers to God the Father as "greater" I believe he is making reference to the divine order that exists as each person of the Godhead has a seperate and distinct role and function.

What do you make of these verses?

Mike

BTW, the Greek dictionary used for the definitions I provided is Strong's Greek/Hebrew.

[BLACK WOLF]

Mike,

What do I make of those verses?

Pretty much as you have described, but with the added understanding of the mind, body and spirit.

One of the reasons Jesus was born unto this world was to set an example of how we are suppose to live. In doing so Jesus had to still pray to God to understand and follow what God (the complete omniscient mind) wanted Him to do.

If Jesus came here with the complete mind of God, He wouldn't have needed to pray to God to find out what He was expected to do. Again, He came here to set an example, and in doing so He taught us how important it is to pray to God for answers and guidence.

Christianity is about a relationship and you can't have a good relationship with someone unless you spend time with them. That is why prayer is so important. It opens the door in having a personal and intimate relationship with God.

Can you feel someone's spirit after they die?

I believe so.

Can you feel someone's spirit before they exist here on earth?

I don't think it was made possible.

That is also how I understand why the Holy Spirit was sent here as the Comforter after Jesus died and not before than.

Again,

God = His Holy and complete mind
Jesus = the body
The Holy Spirit = His Spirit

All are seperate, yet all are one.

I'm sure some people might find error in that, but that is what has brought me peace and understanding of how the 3 are seperate, yet one.

Ray

[Bill McNeal]

Bill Lamb, I find it odd that you on one hand make snide remarks about the """
Lot's of fluff, no Biblical references and purely the spewings of man.""", then turn around and lend your support to the "Trinity Doctrine" which was founded hundreds of years after the Bible was written, and has zero Scriptural support, and is built solely upon the opinions of men who simply fear to question any of the traditions of their fathers, for to have to admit that their doctrines are not Biblical would be too damaging to the foundations they have laid.

You also said .........

"""You didn't answer all of the questions I asked, but that's alright, that's the way the game is normally played, isn't it?""""

Bill you asked who set at the right hand of God, and I said Jesus. However, because I called Him "wonderful Counselor, Everlasting Father, and the Son, you did not accept that answer. I also asked you a few questions, and here is what you said.............

""""1. Is Jesus the Son of God? Yes""""

You are correct Bill, Jesus is the Son of God. You then said.......

"""2. Is Jesus the Everlasting Father? No, albeit He and the Everlasting Father are each in the Godhead.""""

here you are incorrect Bill Lamb. Scripture which is Gods perfect Word says in Isaiah 9:6 of Jesus """That His name SHALL be called "The Everlasting Father"". You see Bill Lamb, it matters little if you deny the Scriptures of God, in order to bolster the doctrines of men. It comes down to two things...Either God is wrong when He says that Jesus SHALL be called Everlasting Father, or you are wrong. I know that you are wrong, because my Lord would not inspire such writing if it indeed were untrue. You also said ........

""""3. Is Jesus the Wonderful Counselor? No. I presume you are referring to Is 9:6 where two of the names given for "...unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given..." are wonderful and counsellor. You missed the comma between wonderful and counsellor."""

Again Bill Lamb, you are incorrect, and your comments directly attempt to refute Scripture, with a weak arguement In the NIV translation, God says ..........

"""For to us a child is born,

to us a son is given,

and the government will be on his shoulders.

And he will be called

Wonderful Counselor, [a] Mighty God,

Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. """

The NAS says.........

"""For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
And the government will rest on His shoulders;
And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father, Prince of Peace."""

The NKJ says ...

""".For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."""

The KJ says ........ For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."""

So you see Bill, to try and suggest that a comma placement in effect changes the fact that Jesus is refered as the Holy Spirit is at best a stretch. God calls Himself the Wonerful Counselor, and in some translations Wonderful, Counselor, however Bill Lamb, the operative word is COUNSELOR. You see, EVERY instance where we see the word Counselor {With a Capitol C} being used, it is defining the Holy Spirit. The KJV uses the word "Comforter" to define the Holy Ghost, and Jesus uses it to define Himself ...John 14:17

Read CAREFULLY where Jesus says to His Disciples .........

"""And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever– the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, FOR HE LIVES WITH YOU, and will be in you."""

Now, armed with the Knowledge that God says that Jesus is the Wonderful Counselor, or Wonderful, Counselor, we can really begin to understand this Scripture. Here we find Jesus, who is called COUNSELOR by the prophet Isaiah, telling the disciples that a COUNSELOR , will soon come to them. He also says that the world will NOT recognize this fact, yet the DISCIPLES will, because this COUNSELOR will be in them,{speaking of the day of pentacost} and Jesus says they already know Him, because the COUNSELOR LIVES with them.

So, knowing that Scripture CLEARLY says that Counselor means Holy Spirit... John 14:26, we can begin to understand the Biblical Record of who Jesus is, without falling back on the man created trinity doctrine which uses the guise of mystery to cloak its inability to understand the reality of who God is.



So Bill Lamb, I point once again to the Scriptures which say...........

""""For to us a child is born,

to us a son is given,

and the government will be on his shoulders.

And he will be called

Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,

Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. """

and once again I ask you........... Is Jesus Christ the Wonderful Counselor?. Is Jesus Christ the Mighty God? Is Jesus Christ the Everlasting Father?. Is Jesus Christ the Prince of Peace.???

Shalom


















Have you heard the song "His Name is Wonderful"?"""

[Bill McNeal]

Esquire, I should like to address your comments about heresy. One thing you need to understan is that heresy can be many things. To me shooting a carbon arrow from a selfbow is heresy :) . Putting a sight on a flintlock is heresy too :)

Seriously, heresy can mean alot of things. In some nations, not supporting the rulers can be seen as heresy, which could be punishable by death. Sadly we have seen the past actions of so called Christians who put many people to death for being heretics against their doctrine....{The formation of the man created trinity doctrine bears this shame}. For preaching on the Sovereign will of God, and proclaiming that the Kingdom of Heaven was not just exclusive to law keeping Jews, Jesus was branded a heretic by the religous traditionalists, and deed doers of His day, and eventually hung on a Cross. Here today in America we see an almost violent reaction to the preaching of Gods Sovereign Election of His Church.

You see Esquire, there is a BIG difference between heresy of man created doctrine, and Biblical heresy. To refute the trinity doctrine may be seen as heresy towards the doctrines of sin soaked man, but Biblical heresy it is not, because the triune doctrine is NOT Biblical doctrine, but rather a man created
doctrine, no different than a baptist doctrine that requires members of the church to sign a confession of faith in which they agree not to ingest alcoholic beverages.

You see my friend, this kind of stuff is the very reason God saved me out of death, and rose me back up in Baptism, so that I would proclaim the Gospel of His Bible, to be superior to doctrines of men who have been lead astray by the evil one. If it were not soo sad, I would laugh as I see the various denominational "churches" profess their "faiths" as truth, as they yoke the congrgations with the laws, and rules of their carnal desires, while standing smuggly by, as the people stagger under the weight of their false load, warning them of possible heresy if they collapse under the strain.

Steeples, fancy pews, pulpits, "senior" pastors, hired clergy, hired orators, stained glass, glowing robes, Popes, business meetings, statements of faith, .......None of this is of God, but rather an attempt of the evil one to lead the Elect astray into thinking that this is what Jesus is all about, yet the beast cannot grasp the fact that the Elect are sealed, and that they will never be sold into slavery, and they will fearlessly preach the Good News of the Messiah, and His New Covenant, without the need of a mans doctrine, or manifesto to make it bear fruit.

Shalom!

[WildmanSC]

Bill McNeal,

I can see now the source of your confusion. You quote from the Bible and three paraphrases of the Bible, and I doubt you know the difference. You certainly don't notice the difference in meaning in the language used in the Bible and the three paraphrases of it. You also confuse Counsellor and Comforter, and substitute the word Counsellor for the word Comforter and equate them without even noting you are doing it. It is sad to see a man claim that he is refuting "man's doctrine" when he himself, a man, is taking the Bible out of context and presenting it as truth.

There is no benefit in endeavoring to discuss the truths of the Bible with you, you don't recognize them when they are pointed out to you. Instead you don't address them, but rather jump to your agenda and completely ignore the Biblical truths. This will be my last post in response to anything you post on this or anyother thread on this forum. Frankly, your "I am the purveyor of truth" mantra is dishonest at best.

Bill Lamb

[Esquire]

For those of you who might be interested, I am providing a link to an article entitled Is The God of Muhammad the Father of Jesus?

There is some fine discussion of the doctrine of the Trinity in this article; explaining the Trinity and why it is foundational to the Christian faith, and covering some of the heresies that have been alluded to in this thread, including the heresy spread by Arius.

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2002/002/1.28.html

By way of introduction, the following text is from a Q and A with the article's author:

__________________________________________________ _______________________________

Danielle DuRant: In chapter three of your new book you contend, “Ironically, the doctrine of the Trinity may be at once the most important and the most neglected doctrine we [as Christians] hold.” You suggest that this is “perhaps because we cannot understand or explain the Trinity.” Would you elaborate on this doctrine and how it bears upon our faith?

Timothy George: The Trinity is foundational to the Christian faith and is something that all orthodox believing Christians share. It’s a part of the structure of the building, and though often we don’t notice the infrastructure, it’s there. I think it’s that way with the Trinity. There’s another problem that some have with the Trinity; that is, the word isn’t in the Bible. And so some would ask, “Why should we make such a big deal over a word that the Holy Spirit didn’t think necessary to inspire? It’s not in the holy writ of Scripture.” Unfortunately, that kind of biblicist objection to the doctrine of the Trinity has played very strongly in some circles.

The Trinity is a concept that’s hard to wrap your mind around. It seems mysterious, even contradictory—how can three be one and still be three? And so when we think of it in numerical terms, in mathematical terms, I think we’re never going to get very far. That’s why I tried to emphasize in this book the relational character of God. That’s what the Trinity really is all about. But I do think, without the Trinity—yes, the word is not in the Bible but the Bible itself is Trinitarian from first to last—we can’t make any sense out of who Jesus Christ is, or what the atonement is about, or what salvation is really about apart from the Trinitarian understanding of God. So I am glad that there are Christians today who want to go back and recover the doctrine of the Trinity, and discuss it again. That’s a good thing that’s happening in the theological world. And in fact, this whole debate with Islam is bringing it more to the fore, and that’s one of the good things, we can pray, that can come out of the great disaster [referring to 9/11] that we’ve seen happen.

__________________________________________________ _____________________________

Here I provide the link to the interview - just for the sake of providing my source. http://www.rzim.org/publications/jttran.php?seqid=82#_ftnref3

[Bill McNeal]

Bill Lamb you said........

"""I can see now the source of your confusion. You quote from the Bible and three paraphrases of the Bible,""".

No I actually quoted from several translations of the Bible, and EVERYONE of Them calls Jesus, the EVERLASTING FATHER, and the COUNSELOR

You also said.....


""and I doubt you know the difference.""

Actually I feel I do.

"""You certainly don't notice the difference in meaning in the language used in the Bible and the three paraphrases of it."""

Actually I do. You just accuse me of this because it is easier to do that, than to answer my question, which is .......Is Jesus, according to Scripture the Wonderful Counselor, the Mighyty God, The Everlasting Father, and the Prince of Peace?????????

You also said.....


"""You also confuse Counsellor and Comforter, and substitute the word Counsellor for the word Comforter and equate them without even noting you are doing it.""""

No, I do not confuse them. They are BOTH the HOLY SPIRIT, and simply by reading John 14:26 this is made perfectly clear. The KJV uses the Word Comforter in the Gospel of John to describe the Holy Ghost, and the more modern translations use the word Counselor to describe the Holy Spirit. However both translations of Isaiah use the word Counselor to describe jesus, and both use the words "Everlasting father", something you seem to openily refuse to address.

You also said ........

"""It is sad to see a man claim that he is refuting "man's doctrine" when he himself, a man, is taking the Bible out of context and presenting it as truth."""

I must disagree. I have taken nothing out of context. I quoted the Scripture in context that says.........

""" For to us a child is born,

to us a son is given,

and the government will be on his shoulders.

And he will be called

Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,

Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. """

then I simply asked you if that Scripture says that Jesus is the Wonderful Counselor, the Mighty God , the Everlasting Father, and the Prince of Peace. Your refusal to answer this direct question in no way proves that I took the Scripture out of context.

You also said.......

"""There is no benefit in endeavoring to discuss the truths of the Bible with you, you don't recognize them when they are pointed out to you."""

No, I thouroughly respect Biblical Truth. You are just getting angry because I will not pay homage to your man created trinity doctrine that calls Jesus "the second person of the trinity", which is a totally unBiblical premise, that I refuse to obey just because it was forced on the fourth century RC church.

"""Instead you don't address them, but rather jump to your agenda and completely ignore the Biblical truths."""

I have addressed the "truth" of your trinity doctrine Bill, and have clearly pointed out that it has no Biblical foundation whatsoever, that it was created hundreds of years after Gods inspired Bible was complete, and I also pointed to BIBLICAL Scripture that CLEARLY counters your opinions, and created doctrine.

"""This will be my last post in response to anything you post on this or anyother thread on this forum."""

That is your right, but please realize that there are brothers in Christ who simply refuse to submit to the worn traditions of men, and who seek to base their faith on the teachings of Jesus Christ found in His Holy Word, rather than the rules, and opinions of collective denominational religous people who are actually the ones who practice an agenda driven program. You see Bill Lamb, unlike many, I do "hustle the Gospel for profit". My ministry requires no funding, I don't sell sermons, music, blessings, or ideas.I don't push a nationalistic gospel, or a prosperity gospel. I am not compelled to "tickle ears", or water down the Gospel. I am not bound to the doctrines of the main Stream American church. I don't preach a tithe, nor do I preach deeds, and desires, but rather I simply preach Christ crucifed, and risen so that the Elect might live.

You also said.......



"""Frankly, your "I am the purveyor of truth" mantra is dishonest at best."""

Bill you would have a case if I was here on this forum trying hustle the premise that a doctrine created by wicked men, 300 years after the Bible was written the truth, and acting as if all who disagreed were heretics, but that is not the case.

It is you Bill Lamb who are presenting a man made doctrine as truth, not I. Also it is you who are becoming increasingly angry when others refuse to submit to your version of truth. This is becoming evident by your name calling in other threads, and your general disrespectful attitude toward those who refuse to follow your doctrine. So please Bill, do not accuse me of being dishonest.

Shalom!

[Bill McNeal]

In responce to Mr George.........

"""The Trinity is foundational to the Christian faith and is something that all orthodox believing Christians share."""

This is simply untrue, and has zero Biblical foundation. The same can be said about the doctrines of Mormonism, Jehovahs Witness, and Seventh Day advents who also hold up post Biblical doctrines of men as Biblical Truth.



"""It’s a part of the structure of the building,"""

Actually the Word of God in the Bible is our Scructure. The trinity doctrine is not part of the Bible, and to suggest that it is the foundation of Christianity, is about as accurate as saying the teachings of Joseph Smith, Ellen White, or Brigham Young are

"""and though often we don’t notice the infrastructure, it’s there. I think it’s that way with the Trinity. """

The Elect of God understand the Scructure of Gods Church, for He revealed it to them in His Bible, when He gave them the mind of Christ. The Roman Catholic doctrines created hundreds of years later added nothing to Gods Word.


"""There’s another problem that some have with the Trinity; that is, the word isn’t in the Bible. And so some would ask, “Why should we make such a big deal over a word that the Holy Spirit didn’t think necessary to inspire? It’s not in the holy writ of Scripture.” Unfortunately, that kind of biblicist objection to the doctrine of the Trinity has played very strongly in some circles."""

And this is the very same arguement that the Jehovahs, Mormons, Advents, Unitarians, and Catholics have used to defend their addendums, and doctrines which they profess to be Truth. It's amazing that a man who professes to be a Christian can publicly say that it's no "big deal" if something isn't inspired by God.

"""The Trinity is a concept that’s hard to wrap your mind around. It seems mysterious, even contradictory—how can three be one and still be three?"""

That is because it is unBiblical, and unChristian. It is the spawn of mans knowledge, and those who lean on mans knowledge become as the Bible says ....."fools"


"""And so when we think of it in numerical terms, in mathematical terms, I think we’re never going to get very far."""

Again, you "don't get far", because you preach a doctrine that is unBiblical, and you excuse its "mystery" by saying that "our minds cannot understand it", when in reality, it is not understanable because it was born out of a human mind, and not the Mind of God.





"""That’s why I tried to emphasize in this book the relational character of God. That’s what the Trinity really is all about."""

Ah yes, by reading your book, "we" can perhaps come to understand this manmade doctrine.



"""But I do think, without the Trinity—yes, the word is not in the Bible but the Bible itself is Trinitarian from first to last—we can’t make any sense out of who Jesus Christ is, or what the atonement is about, or what salvation is really about apart from the Trinitarian understanding of God."""

Of course we cannot. According to you , the first 300 years of Christianity was just a flounderence of ignorance. Those saved at Pentacost, and in the first, second, and third centuries were just decieved people, who had to wait until the Roman Catholic Church enlightened them to the truth of the trinity.



""""So I am glad that there are Christians today who want to go back and recover the doctrine of the Trinity, and discuss it again. That’s a good thing that’s happening in the theological world."""

First off, in Christs World there is no "theological world". There is only the "mind of Christ", given to those who He has Chosen to recieve His Holy Spirit. It is these people who "go back", and preach to the World that no doctrine of man, established after the Inspiration Holy Bible is truth, and it is these people , these Christians who say that Mr George, with all due respect, we do not need your "trinity doctrine" to know our Lord.


Shalom!

[Esquire]

I'm glad you took time to read the article, Bill. I hope others will do the same.

[Esquire]

For any of you who are trying to get your head around why the Trinity is a foundational Christian doctrine, and why various cults fight so adamantly against it, even to this day, I am posting a link to another article that will be of some benefit, I think.

I don't want to flood you with articles, at the same time, I think interested parties will follow the link and uninterested parties will pass! Those in disagreement will say so, I'm sure. :)

http://www.founders.org/FJ51/article3_fr.html

If anyone wonders why I don't simply give my own thoughts, I will answer that, in a way, I am. For reasons of time I allow others to say better what I would say poorly, if I had more time to devote.

Mike

[Bill McNeal]

Esquire you said........


"""For any of you who are trying to get your head around why the Trinity is a foundational Christian doctrine,and why various cults fight so adamantly against it, even to this day,""""

What you need to understand is, is that the Bible IS the Doctrine of Christian Foundation. To imply that a doctrine concieved by men 300 years after the Bible was written is "foundational" in effect saying that the Bible is not the complete foundation of God, and that He needs your Roman Catholic doctrine to secure it. A Foundation is laid prior to construction. For you to suggest that your trinity doctrine is "foundational" to Christianity implies that the Gospels, and the Epistles are incomplete, and void without your man created doctrine.

With regards to "cults". Cults can pretty much be distinquished by their attempts to suggest that the post Biblical writings, opinions, doctrines, and revelations of men, carry as much weight, if not more than True Biblical Scripture. Unlike the trinity doctrine which you embrace, The Gospel Truth of Jesus Christ was not forced on humanity with a sword, the way the trinity doctrine was forced on the Church.

Every major cult attempts to suggest that its particular doctrine, though not actually Biblical, is still of God. The Mormon church for example is a massive collection of such people, who will stand up just like you do, and profess that only the true believers adhere to their/your doctrine, and that their/your doctrine is foundation. Now of course, they will claim that you are not a Christian for practicing your pagan form of Christianity {trinitarianism}, and you will claim that they are unChristian for following the doctrine of Joe Smith. However, what you both share is a common link to following unBiblical doctrines of men, written centuries after the Inspired Word of God.

Both of you claim that your doctrines are based on Scripture, but when tested, you both point to the books, teachings, and essays of like-minded men to bolster your arguements. You can post all the links you want Esquire, for the wisdom of this world is "foolishness" as God says. Sadly it comes down to the fact that men who have been mislead for generations refuse to surrender their pride, and face the fact, that maybe, just maybe, their fathers, and grandfathers, were wrong. That maybe, just maybe, what their "religion" teaches is UnBiblical. We see this pride in the Gospels. A pride soo great that the Jewish religous people were blinded to the teachings of Christ, because they flew directly in the face of all their traditions, and religion, and to embrace His teachings would mean that they would have to face the fact that they were mislead, and decieved.

Little has changed today. Jesus warns us that the religous root that existed in the Pharisees, will creep into the church. He warned the Elect to take the narrow gate, for the vast majority of so called Christians would take the wide gate. The Apostles tell us that the foundations of Scripture will be shelved, for the myths of men, and that those who preach the Gospel will be ridiculed by the religous folk, as they were. Sadly men no longer look to Scripture for Truth, but rather the look to the UnBiblical professional "Holymen" calling themselves our "senior pastors", "priests", "reverends", and "masters". For foundational truth, who teach them that the truth lies in their "conventions", "statements", "books", and the Vatican.

The fact that many attend a weekly event bore right out Greco/Roman paganism that features a hired speaker who gives a monolouge, from a pulpit, while seated in orderly pews indicates that if they cannot understand the error in this, theu will never grasp the error of following a revamped pagan doctrine like trinity worship.

Shalom!

[Bill McNeal]

Here is an address to the beginning of the article supporting "trinity"


"""The doctrine of the Trinity is consistently among the first of those teachings to be banefully attacked by the opponents of the historic, Christian faith.""""

Actually, the authors suggestion attempts to veil the trinity doctrine as one that is Biblical, thus making it possible to considering opposition to it "anti-Christian". However the trinity doctrine is NOT Biblical, but rather a man created doctrine.


"""Cultists and religious devotees of multitudinous persuasions come against Trinitarianism with a venom uncommon in most other arenas of doctrinal controversy. Missionaries for the Mormon church, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Islam, for example, often receive training in specific methods targeted at "refuting" the Trinity."""

Here the author engages in Hypocrisy. He accuses the Mormons of being cultists for claiming that Jesus is not god the Father, while his own doctrine professes the very same thing.




"""Why is this? Why all the hubbub? What is so threatening about a doctrine which some would care to deem merely "academic," "heady," "too speculative," "contradictory" or "confusing"? """

From the view of a Christian, I simply point out that the trinity doctrine is man created , and Unbiblical, because that is my charge. However such doctrine will in no way effect the Plan of God, for the Salvation of His Church.



"""The answer is really quite simple: If the Christian doctrine of the Trinity is not true, then Jesus Christ is not Who He said He was, namely, God the Savior."""

The doctrine of trinity is not true, yet Jesus Christ still remains God the Savior, and He IS who He said He IS........that being the Wonderful Counselor, the Mighty God, the Everlasting Father, and the Prince of Peace.


"""But if it is true, resistless logic points to the inescapable conclusion that Jesus Christ is indeed, the logos sarx, the Word in human flesh Who "made His dwelling among us" (John 1:14). Enemies of the Holy Trinity know that if the fabric of Trinitarianism can be torn down, then Jesus was but a mere man,perhaps a prophet at best, but certainly not the Theanthropos, the Godman--100 percent man, 100 percent Deity (Philippians 2:5-7) as the Bible and the historic creeds of Christendom affirm. """

The trinity doctrine is untrue, UnBiblical, and unInspired yet Jesus Christ is still Lord, Savior, and Counselor. He did not need a collection of self concerned men to create a religous doctrine hundreds of years after His ressurection to define Who He Was, Is, or Will be. That comes from the warped minds of humans. Jesus was a man, because He choose to become a man. Jesus is God, and Savior because He is "I AM". The same Jesus who nestled Himself in the womb of a peasant girl, was the same Jesus Who parted the sea, Who wrestled with Jacob, Who stood in Nebuchadnezzers furnace, Who hung Himself on the Cross, and Who will Come back for His Church.




. """And if Christ was not these things, then He did not render sufficient satisfaction for our sins by virtue of His death and on the cross and victorious resurrection three days later."""

However HE IS THESE THINGS. He IS LORD, He IS SAVIOR, and He is COUNSELOR. He just doesn't need your documentation to proof it. He was things prior to the foundations of the World. He was these things before you were created, so surely He does not need your trinity doctrine to be sanctified


"""Indeed, as Paul affirms, "if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins" (1 Corinthians 15:17). If the Trinity is not true, then Christ is not God the Son resurrected and, plain and simple,Christians worldwide are worshipping a dead man. So how important is the Trinity and its defense? I'd say it doesn't get more important than this""

Paul is absolutely correct, when He says that it is Christs ressurrection that cleanes our sins, however this Biblical Truth is given to the Bride in the Bible, and is very clear by evidence that , IT IS IN THE BIBLE!. God decided that He wanted His Bride to know this, so He inspired the Apostle to write it for us to know. So here is a news flash. Your trinity doctrine is a liitle late. The Church already knows what God said, thank you very much, and the Christians at pentacost, and those chosen in the centuries prior to "trinity" were worshipping a living God, so please do not suggest that they worshipped the dead, because they lacked your doctrine.

Shalom

[Esquire]

Bill McNeal,

I just wanted to say that I really admire your zeal for the truth. I wish everyone I met was as hungry for ultimate reality and objective truth as you are.

Your journey has lead you to abandon certain elements of orthodoxy that have long been considered essential to the Christian Faith. You do not completely adhere to the Apostles Creed, which is pretty universally considered a faithful summation of the essentials of the Christian Faith. I realize that you don't consider this to be a bad thing.

You and I don't see eye to eye, of course. My study of scripture has lead me to embrace a more orthodox position than yours has. I am concerned that your zeal has run away with your orthodoxy. You are concerned that I am a slave to a manmade system.

Laying our differences aside for the moment, I want to make the point of this post.

A man who is convinced of the truth of his position ought to stick to it. You do so and I greatly admire you for it. Sincerity is always to be preferred and praised over insincerity, and an honest adherence to error is better than a dishonest adherence to truth. (By this, I mean that a truthful agnostic is closer to knowing God than a pharisee is; who uses the truth merely as a tool to gain his own corrupt ends).

You know that I think you are greatly in the truth, but also in places are greatly in error. I gather you think something similar about me. Despite our disagreement - we both agree that truth is of greatest importance and that God's word is the final authority. This is a great point of agreement and I am glad we share that much.

Mike

[WildmanSC]

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Mark 1:21 And they went into Capernaum; and straightway on the sabbath day he entered into the synagogue, and taught. 22 And they were astonished at his doctrine: for he taught them as one that had authority, and not as the scribes. 23 And there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit; and he cried out, 24 Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God. 25 And Jesus rebuked him, saying, Hold thy peace, and come out of him.

John 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. 67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? 68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. 69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Acts 3:12 And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this? or why look ye so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk? 13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go. 14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you; 15 And killed the Prince F6 of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses. 16 And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all. 17 And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers. 18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.

Gen 1:26 Let us make man in our image... This gives the full implication that there is definitely more than one participating in this conversation.

Gen 2:7-9 "...the LORD God..." A careful study reveals that the LORD God is the I Am of the New Testament, Jesus Christ.

Luke 10:1 After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come 16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.

"...he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me."

Me is Jesus Christ, he that sent me is God the Heavenly Father, two personages, one God.

John 6:69 "...we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. " Clearly, the Apostles recognized Christ as God, in that He is the Son of the living God.

"John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you."

Someone posted and disigeniously stated that several versions of the Bible, NAS and NKJV, used the word Counsellor in place of the word Comforter in John 14:16. Actually, these versions use the word Helper in place of Counsellor. He then tried to tie the reference to Counsellor back to Is 9:6. Sorry, the Counsellor reference is not present, so the tie back doesn't work. The KJV, NIV and ASV all use the word Comforter in John 14:16.

It is also apparent that the Scriptures in this one verse, John 14:16, defines the Trinity, even though it does not use the word "Trinity". It bears repeating, "...I (Jesus Christ the Son of God) will pray the Father (the Heavenly Father), and He shall give you another Comforter (the Holy Spirit),..." It is very evident that the author understood that the three are one, although they have different personages. This further reinforces the fact that the conversation in Gen 1:26 Let us make man in our image... was between God the Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit, all of which existed before the creation.

Bill

[Bill McNeal]

more responces.......



"""The Bible, of course, never actually uses the word "Trinity." Rather, the term--since coined by Tertullian in the second century--"has simply been found a convenient designation for the one God self-revealed in Scripture as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.""""

Actually, those who follow the doctrine of trinity call God "three persons"


"""[2]Biblical passages affirming both the "Oneness" and the Triunity of this Oneness are in ample supply. Deuteronomy 6:4 affirms that "The Lord our God is one Lord" """

I agree with this Scripture, but the "trinity" doctrine contends that the One Lord is "three persons", which Scripture does not support.



"""while passages such as Matthew 28:19 and 2Corinthians 13:14 both make explicit use of the "Trinitarian formula." """

Actually, Matthew 28:19-20 also points to the Oneness of God, because as we read on, in verse 20, Jesus says that they are to obey everything I have Commanded you. , and that He is Always with them. In John 14:10, Jesus says this to Phillip after he asks Him to show him God the Father.........."""Don't you believe that I am the Father?, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own, Rather it is the Father, living in me, who is doing His Work."""""".........

Now, according to the "trinity" Doctrine, { a doctrine written post Bible} Jesus is a seperate person, yet according to the Bible, Jesus says that He is the Father, and the Father is in Him. This is where the "trinity" doctrine fails, and fails miserablely as they try to suggest that Jesus is a seperate person. Jesus also tells the Disciples in John 14:15-17 that He will ask the Father {Who He claims to be} to send them the Holy Spirit, while at the same time saying that He is the Holy Spirit who lives with them at the time of this proclamation.


"""[3] The divinity of Christ is also affirmed in various places like Colossians 2:9 where Paul calls Jesus "the one in whom the fullness of deity dwells bodily" (see also Philippians 2:5-7; John 8:58, 17:5; Revelation 2:8). """

Again, the very Scriptures that the trinity people use to try and suggest that Jesus is the second person of God, TOTALLY contradicts it. The Word Diety means "God". The Scripture says that "in Christ all the fulness of diety {God} lives in bodily form" . Yet, the trinity people teach that the Father, Jesus, and the Spirit are seperate persons, which totally flies in the face of this Scripture which CLEARLY tells us that regardless of form, the Fullness of God rests in the Father, The Son, and the Spirit. The trinity claims are further refuted when they are asked which "person" of God wrestled with Jacob. They have no answer for it, because if the pick a particular "person" it defies Scripture, and if the say all 3, it shoots down their whole doctrine.

"""Contrary to the claims of skeptics and antitrinitarians, the doctrine of the Trinity does not go against reason, but rather beyond it.[4] There is an unbridgeable difference between these two assertions. The Trinity is a mystery, not a contradiction."""

This is just pure, and utter nonsense, and the way that this doctrine is defended. Because it is unBiblical, and cannot be supported by Scripture, those who worship it, simply claim it to be one of the great mysteries too deep and dark for man to ponder, and that understanding it is reserved for special theologians, and visionaries, when actual God breathed Scripture clearly tells the Elect that they have the Mind of Christ, and can address such matters.



"""Properly formulated, the doctrine declares that "God is one in nature (or essence) and three in person" thus doing no violence to reason."""

regardless of the trinity doctrinal claims, The God Breathed Scriptures of the Bible, NOWHERE suggest that the Father, Jesus, or the Holy Spirit are seperate "persons". There is a big difference between what men "declare" , and what the Bible says.



""""If, on the other hand, the doctrine were to declare that God is "one in nature and three in nature," then, indeed, we would have an irreconcilable contradiction. """

The Bible does proclaim that the nature of God is indeed Oneless......Jesus says........"I and the father are One"...John 10:30........"don't you believe I am the Father"...John 14:10........."for He lives with You, and Will be With you"...........John 14:17........." I tell you the truth Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" Also scripture says..."The Word was God", and "in Christ all the fulness of the Diety lives in bodily form"......."There is one God"



"""For, in this case God is said to be both one and three at the same time and in the same sense which is a patent violation of the law of noncontradiction which governs all rational thought and without which all intelligible discourse would be impossible. That the Trinity is logically tenable does not, however, alter its status as an intractable theological mystery. How the three Persons of the Trinity co-inhere one another in the Divine perichoresis, though noncontradictory, is beyond the human capacity to understand. Finitum non capax infinitum, the finite cannot contain the infinite."""

In other words, the author is saying that anti-trinity positions are not logical,therefore false, but that the trinity doctrine which makes no sense, or lacks Biblical support is acceptable, and true, based on the fact that it defies the human capacity to understand it. Yea, that sounds like a valid selling point :p

[Bill McNeal]

Bill McNeal,

I just wanted to say that I really admire your zeal for the truth. I wish everyone I met was as hungry for ultimate reality and objective truth as you are.

Your journey has lead you to abandon certain elements of orthodoxy that have long been considered essential to the Christian Faith. You do not completely adhere to the Apostles Creed, which is pretty universally considered a faithful summation of the essentials of the Christian Faith. I realize that you don't consider this to be a bad thing.

You and I don't see eye to eye, of course. My study of scripture has lead me to embrace a more orthodox position than yours has. I am concerned that your zeal has run away with your orthodoxy. You are concerned that I am a slave to a manmade system.

Laying our differences aside for the moment, I want to make the point of this post.

A man who is convinced of the truth of his position ought to stick to it. You do so and I greatly admire you for it. Sincerity is always to be preferred and praised over insincerity, and an honest adherence to error is better than a dishonest adherence to truth. (By this, I mean that a truthful agnostic is closer to knowing God than a pharisee is; who uses the truth merely as a tool to gain his own corrupt ends).

You know that I think you are greatly in the truth, but also in places are greatly in error. I gather you think something similar about me. Despite our disagreement - we both agree that truth is of greatest importance and that God's word is the final authority. This is a great point of agreement and I am glad we share that much.

Mike

Mike, I really appreciate your thoughts, and thank you. If you look back to my first post to this thread, you will see that i said that although I refuse to teach a trinity doctrine, I do understand that it is partially rooted in some truth. You see, my main issue with the "trinity" doctrine, unlike the Mormons, and Witnesses is the fact that it is man created. I simply believe that the Inspired Word of God found in the Bible is more than able to provide the Body with Truth with regards to who God is.

You see, the trinitarians don't just proclaim their doctrine as truth, but they regard all those who reject it as heretics, and cultists, and that is what places them in the same boat with Advents, Orthodox Roman Catholics, Amish, Latter Day Saints, Witnesses, and so forth, who proclaim the very same thing about those who reject their doctrine. What all these groups claim, is that post Biblical doctrine of men is vital to make sense of Scripture, and my friend, if I will not accept such a claim from a Mormon, I will not accept it from a Trinitarian.

Mike, I am a minister of God, and my charge is preach the Gospel, part of which proclaims that Christians are to be in unity. However, religous denominationalism has made a mockery of this. Compared to the early first century Church, the "Churches" we see today are isolationists who are only concerned with teaching their denominational doctrines, even if said doctrines have no basis in scripture. Instead of accepting plain Scripture for what it is, we have men who make a career out of telling everyone else what the Bible says. Jesus says "I and the Father are one", yet we have legions of scholars, theologians, and high priests lined up to tell us that that is not "really what He means".

The only example of Church practice we have is found in Scripture, is by the acts of, and commands given to the first century Church. We don't see Paul, or Peter telling us that the defining of who God is will come to us 300 years later out of the Catholic Church, no more than they tell us that God will appear to Joseph Smith, or William Miller, or that Jesus appeared in the sky above America in 1844, as the Advents claim.

My friend, my brother.........I got the Holy Spirit in me, and I got a Bible...........thats all I need to carry on............ :)

Shalom!

[Bill McNeal]

"""Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil."""

some great Scripture there Bill. However, while it points to the Oneness of God, it does little to support the trinity notion that the Father, Son, and Ghost are seperate people. God was talking to Himself at Creation, just like He was in Gethsemane!

""""Mark 1:21 And they went into Capernaum; and straightway on the sabbath day he entered into the synagogue, and taught. 22 And they were astonished at his doctrine: for he taught them as one that had authority, and not as the scribes. 23 And there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit; and he cried out, 24 Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God. 25 And Jesus rebuked him, saying, Hold thy peace, and come out of him. """"

More GREAT Scripture.........."The Holy One of God" ........Now who can be Holy {capitol H} , but God Himself!!!

"""John 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. 67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? 68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. 69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.""""

And Jesus IS the Son of the living God!!!, but He is also the living God!!!........"""I tell you the truth Jesus answered, before Abraham was born, I am!""".......John 8:58......Jesus said....."""I and the Father are One"""John 10:30




"""John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. """

Here in this Scripture Jesus tells the followers that He is going to send the Comforter {Holy Spirit}, and that at the same time the Comforter {Holy Spirit} is dwelling with them. So much for the the 3rd person arguement of trinity.

""""Acts 3:12 And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this? or why look ye so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk? 13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go. 14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you; 15 And killed the Prince F6 of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses. 16 And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all. 17 And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers. 18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.""""

A Great Scripture to show the Elect that God is also the Son of God, for Scripture tells us back in Matthew that Jesus was called ....."Immanuel-which means "God with us". Yes Beloved, Jesus is God!, the "Mighty God", the "Everlasting Father"!!!

"""Gen 1:26 Let us make man in our image... This gives the full implication that there is definitely more than one participating in this conversation.""""

Actually the Bible records no conversation. It simply records God statement.

"""Gen 2:7-9 "...the LORD God..." A careful study reveals that the LORD God is the I Am of the New Testament, Jesus Christ."""

Yes Bill, and even more study reveals that He is also the I AM of the OT

"""Luke 10:1 After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come 16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.

"...he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me." """

God sent Himself to be ransom. He simply calls Himself the Lamb, or the Son, but there are no seperate "persons" as the trinity doctrine claims.

"""Me is Jesus Christ, he that sent me is God the Heavenly Father, two personages, one God."""

Sorry Bill, Jesus says that He and the Father are one...John 10:30, and Scripture calls Jesus the "Everlasting Father". Also Bill, the "personage" claim is unBiblical, for nowhere in Scripture does it refer to Father, The Son, or the Ghost as "persons"

"""John 6:69 "...we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. " Clearly, the Apostles recognized Christ as God, in that He is the Son of the living God."""

Which Jesus is, but Jesus also asks the followers """Don't you believe that I am in the Father,""". Does the trinity doctrine allow "persons" to be each other?

"John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you."

"""""""Someone posted and disigeniously stated that several versions of the Bible, NAS and NKJV, used the word Counsellor in place of the word Comforter in John 14:16. Actually, these versions use the word Helper in place of Counsellor."""""""

The NIV,and NAS call Jesus the Wonderful Counselor {meaning Holy Spirit} in Isaiah 9:6. He is also called "The Everlasting Father" in both scriptures. also.
The NIV, and the NAS both use the word Counselor in the 14th chapter of John. In John 14 :25 the Counselor is called the Holy Spirit, and in John 14:16, the Counselor is promised by Jesus.

So Bill Lamb, In John 14 The word helper is NOT used at all in these translations. Nor is it used in the KJV, or NKJV, where the word Comforter is used in place of Counselor



"""He then tried to tie the reference to Counsellor back to Is 9:6.Sorry, the Counsellor reference is not present, so the tie back doesn't work.


Once again Bill, you need to re-read the Scriptures because you are posting incorrect information which I am sure is accidental. The KJV of Scripture calls Jesus Wonderful Counsellor {with two L's as is typical with old English spelling} in Isaiah 9:6...Here is the Scripture.....

"""For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."""

Here is the NIV Scripture..........

For to us a child is born,

to us a son is given,

and the government will be on his shoulders.

And he will be called

Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,

Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."""

As you see Bill, the word Counselor, or Counsellor is used



"""The KJV, NIV and ASV all use the word Comforter in John 14:16."""

the king James uses the word Comforter, while the NIV uses the Word Counselor. Both words mean Holy spirit, and both versions call Jesus the Counselor, and Jesus tells His followers that He, the Counselor "lives with them". I don't see your point.











"""It is also apparent that the Scriptures in this one verse, John 14:16, defines the Trinity, even though it does not use the word "Trinity". It bears repeating, "...I (Jesus Christ the Son of God) will pray the Father (the Heavenly Father), and He shall give you another Comforter (the Holy Spirit),..." """"

Gee Bill, my Bible doesn't have those words in John 14:16........Is that the Trinitarian Bible ???:sbrug: Hey, how do you explain away verse 17 where Jesus says the Comforter {Himself} lives with them. Remember this is pre Pentecost, so what does Jesus mean.

Also, you still have avoided the Scriptures that declare Christ the "Everlasting Father, and Wonderful Counselor. If you reject them, do you also reject His title of Prince of Peace.


"""It is very evident that the author understood that the three are one, although they have different personages."""

Can you provide Scripture that says they are "thre different personages" or is that just your opinion???


"""This further reinforces the fact that the conversation in Gen 1:26 Let us make man in our image... was between God the Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit, all of which existed before the creation"""

Again, there was no conversation in my Bible. Conversation takes more than one person. :)

Shalom

[Esquire]

Bill,

I'm not anxious to get too hung up on a word. A word like "trinity" is simply a device to aid in understanding. It describes, in a word, what the scriptures bear witness to throughout.

At least that is the theory. When understanding and communication break down, it is time to set aside the shortcuts and make sure we are talking about the same things. I have studied church history, and I have many of the writings of the church fathers in my personal library. I have many (copies of course) of the original texts from Gregory and Athanasius and Augustine and so on.

As you probably know, the canonization of scripture has some similarity to the establishment of the doctrine of the trinity. Neither was a small group of men arbitrarily forcing their agenda on christendom. Both were a formalization, guided by the holy spirit, of what the church had held to from the earliest days forward. The scriptures that were canonized were the scriptures that all recognized as genuine and authoratative from the beginning.

The setting forth of the doctrine of the trinity was necessary because of the attacks upon the scriptural understanding of God by Arius, who was attempting to popularize the notion that a time existed when Jesus did not exist. Arius claimed that Jesus was created by God; that he was brought into existence by God and was not of the same essence as God Himself. Arius was a master at gaining the popular ear and he wrote songs, set to popular drinking songs of the day, that contained the lyrics "there was when he was not!" The church had it's hands full. Of course, we realize that if Jesus is not God then there was no atonement and the entire gospel becomes a lie. Thank goodness the church fathers also recognized this.

As you pointed out, the church has made terrible mistakes along the way. There are moments in Church history when you have to grieve and say "With friends like these, Truth needs no enemies!" But of course, murdering in the name of truth does not make truth a lie. It just makes a murderer of the one who kills.

I wonder if we have gotten wrapped around the axle over a misunderstanding in words? Mere semantics? The bible is clear that God is one essence, three persons, existing in eternal relationship. Do you agree with this? That there are three seperate and distinct persons within the unity of the Godhead?

If you agree with that, I don't care what we call it. (although it sure saves time to use a term). A rose by any other name is still a rose.

Mike

[Of course, according to modern theologians a rose is no longer a rose. As Robert Frost said:

The rose is a rose,
And was always a rose.
But the theory now goes
That the apple's a rose,
And the pear is, and so's
The plum, I suppose. :) ]

[WildmanSC]

"Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:..."

Bill McNeal,

To whom do you think God was talking when He said "...Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:..." Clearly, we and our is plural. Could He, the "One God" have been talking to the angels? I don't think so, because I don't believe we are made in the image or likeness of angels.

Now before I state the obvious, let me ask you a question or two:

1. Do you believe God existed as Father Son and Holy Spirit before the creation?

2. In John 14:16 when Jesus said "...I will pray the Father, and He will send you another Comforter...." You can substitute the word Counsellor if you wish or helper as contained in The NASV and NKJV. Remember, the various versions of the Bible are online so you cannot exchange words and not expect to be called on it. These two versions use the word "Helper" in place of "Comforter" as used in the Bible, i.e., KJV. Can you not see the three personages represented here? I = Jesus, the Father = the Heavenly Father, Comforter/Counsellor/Helper = Holy Spirit. And Jesus didn't say a Comforter, He said "...another Comforter..." It is intuitively obvious that the Holy Spirit as Comforter after Jesus ascended into Heaven to sit at the right hand of the throne of the Father is apart and a separate personage from Jesus Christ as Comforter before His ascension.

3. You have acknowledged that Jesus Christ sits at the right hand of the Father's throne in Heaven. Now, if Jesus sits at the right hand of the Father, it follows that the Father sits to the left of Jesus. Are they not then two separate personages? The Bible gives it to us, it just doesn't use the terminology "personage" and "Trinity".

"Also, you still have avoided the Scriptures that declare Christ the "Everlasting Father, and Wonderful Counselor. If you reject them, do you also reject His title of Prince of Peace."

The only thing I would reject is Wonderful Counsellor. The ASV, RSV, NIV, KJV and NKJV all say "...Wonderful, Counsellor..." only the NAS says "...Wonderful Counsellor..." Since Christ died on the Cross and paid the penalty for sins, there is no doubt His name is Wonderful and He is the Prince of Peace, He is the Counsellor, and I might add the first Comforter, He also is the Everlasting Father (...I and my Father are one...). I have no difficulty seeing in the Scriptures the triune diety and their oneness.

Finite man cannot present himself to others in three personages as can Almighty God. God has attributes than man does not have, Omnipotence and Omnipresence, and not only do we not have it, we can't even comprehend God's capabilities as a result of these attributes. When Christ came to earth and was born of a virgin, was the Everlasting Heavenly Father in Heaven? Or was He down here on earth as a baby? Where was the Holy Spirit before He came down upon Jesus as He came up out of the baptismal waters when He was baptized by John the Baptist? Where did the Holy Spirit come down from? Hint: You might look to Heaven for the answer to this and the answer to the question "Is there a trinity?" You won't accept what the scriptures tells us so plainly, your only hope is to look to Heaven for the answer.

If the Holy Spirit is down here indwelling Christians, is Jesus sitting at the right hand of the Father in Heaven as we speak/type?

Bill

[BLACK WOLF]

Mike,

What a great post in response to Mr. McNeal..."McNeal, I appreciate you..."

I couldn't of agreed more or have said it any better.

Your bro,

Ray

[Bill McNeal]

Mike you said.........



"""The setting forth of the doctrine of the trinity was necessary because of the attacks upon the scriptural understanding of God by Arius, who was attempting to popularize the notion that a time existed when Jesus did not exist."""

I am sorry my friend, but this doesn't justify creating another unBiblical doctrine to refute Arius' unBiblical doctrine. The Bible is full of proof that Jesus has always existed. I for one do not a trinity doctrine to understand this, any more than anyone who is called by God does.

""""Arius claimed that Jesus was created by God; that he was brought into existence by God and was not of the same essence as God Himself. Arius was a master at gaining the popular ear and he wrote songs, set to popular drinking songs of the day, that contained the lyrics "there was when he was not!""""

Mike, are the claims of Arius any different than the Mormons who claim that Jesus was also created by God, and that there is a heavenly mother, and that Jesus and Lucifer are brothers???. Do we need a "doctrine" to refute this, or can we simply refute the Mormons by quoting Gods Scriptures?



"""The church had it's hands full. Of course, we realize that if Jesus is not God then there was no atonement and the entire gospel becomes a lie. Thank goodness the church fathers also recognized this."""

You see my friend, this is where you and I differ. I believe the Father of the Church is Jesus Christ who is the Lord God, and the Scriptures have been revealed to me through His Holy Spirit, and not the doctrines of men. It is His inspired Word that has made known to me that Jesus is God, and that He paid for my sins. Mike, I knew this the night I was saved, before I ever entered a church building, or studied the Bible. It was my new heart that gave me the sight to see the Truth of Scripture, while at the same time leading my walk by Faith.

"""As you pointed out, the church has made terrible mistakes along the way. There are moments in Church history when you have to grieve and say "With friends like these, Truth needs no enemies!" But of course, murdering in the name of truth does not make truth a lie. It just makes a murderer of the one who kills."""

I am not amazed at the violence that surrounded the trinity doctrine, but rather I am simply saddened to see people who profess to walk by Faith lend so much credence to a post Biblical, unBiblical doctrine.

"""I wonder if we have gotten wrapped around the axle over a misunderstanding in words? Mere semantics? The bible is clear that God is one essence, three persons, existing in eternal relationship. Do you agree with this? That there are three seperate and distinct persons within the unity of the Godhead? """

I agree with you in part, as I said in my very first post to this thread. You see, I agree with the premise that finds God as One, but I simply cannot support the "3 persons" teaching because it has no clear basis in Scripture, but rather a host of people "saying " that certain Scriptures "mean" that. While God clearly points out that He is Father, Son, and Spirit, He never suggests that these forms are seperate persons. While it is true that Jesus was indeed a man, He was the Lord God nonetheless. He was God, who at that time Chose to Become a Sacrifical Lamb for His Church.

Also we must address the Scripture which says there is but "one Lord, one Faith, one Baptism, one God, and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in all!........that is a HEAVY bit of Truth. You see, many will claim that only the "person" of the Holy Spirit {according to triune doctrine} is in us, yet here we see Scripture clearly say that the Lord/God/Father is in us. Next time the JW's come knocking, invite them in, and lay that Scripture on them. They'll swallow their tongue to keep it away from the gnashing teeth :)

I have a question for you Mike, and for anyone who cares to answer it. If you believe that God is made up of 3 distinct persons, which person of the Godhead wrestled with Jacob ???

"""If you agree with that, I don't care what we call it. (although it sure saves time to use a term). A rose by any other name is still a rose."""

Look my friend, I still think you are my brother in Christ, as I do Bill Lamb {even though he is ignoring me} :) However, I do feel you are being mislead, but that is, what it is, and I feel you are where God intends you to be at this point. I too have been mislead {I spent a year and a half in a Southern Baptist Church}, and can tell you that I simply say PRAISE God for that. You see, I needed to go through that , to get to this. There was a time that I literally calculated my tithe to the dime, and preached the Baptist doctrine loudly, including the trinity/prosperity/nationalist, and freewill doctrine that is hustled in the Baptist Church.

However, just because you are my Brother does not mean that I will simply give you a free pass to preach what I consider unsound doctrine, and I expect you to do likewise if you are so convicted. Each of us will give account for our ministry work soon enough.

Shalom!

[WildmanSC]

Bill McNeal,

I'm hardly ignoring you my friend. Look three posts above this one, and two posts above your last one. You will see my responses to your questions. Please read that post and then tell me if I am ignoring you.

I John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

I Cor 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

II Cor 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.

Bill,

I love you in Christ my friend, but this will be my last effort to reveal to you through the Scriptures, not through some document written by man, but through the Scriptures the reality of the Trinity. First and foremost we have to get our arms around what the Trinity is. It is three personages in one Godhead.

You have asked for one verse that defines it, please read I John 5:7 above. I'll share with you what the Holy Spirit, the same one that entered you after you was saved also entered my after I was saved, has revealed to ME regarding this verse.

1. I John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven,

2. the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost:

3. and these three are one.

The first part of this verse very clearly states there are (my paraphrase) "...three in heaven that bear record..." The second part clearly states these three are "...the Father, the Word (or Christ Jesus, the Son of God), and the Holy Ghost (or Spirit):" And the third part clearly states "...and these three are one." That is the Trinity, the Triune Godhead, however you want to define it, it is the three personages of the Godhead, the Father, the Son Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost/Spirit that are one. I thinking you have been missing the fact that there is agreement, at least on my part that there is one God, but by His Omnipotence and Omnipresence, God has three personages as the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost.

Who did Christ say sent Him to earth to be a sacrificial Lamb? "It is my Father who hath sent me..."

Look also in: Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
We are commanded to go unto all the earth , ie, all nations, baptizing them in the name of the? Father, Son and Holy Ghost!

Then, look at: I Cor 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
"..there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things..." "...and one
Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things..."

This verse provides a distinction in the personages of God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, but we are in complete agreement that they are one God.


And lastly, II Cor 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.

Once again, we see the three distinct personages and the attribute that each contributes to the Godhead and to us as Christians.

The following verses speak to the Godhead:

Acts 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.


My prayer, Bro. Bill, is that you will prayerfully consider these verses and thoughts I have shared you from the Bible, not from the teachings of man.

In Christ,

Bill Lamb

[BLACK WOLF]

There is a point when enough is enough.

Jesus didn't sit and argue over and over the same disagreements or questions a believer or non-believer had for Him. He stated His Truth and moved on...unless they chose to believe and follow Him or had another question for Him other than the one that was previously answered. Jesus set the example and we should follow.

I've known you, Mr. McNeal for quite some time and we've gone round and round about these simular issues. When it is obvious neither person or persons are budging in their beliefs, it should be a sign that they are either trying to force or control the other into believing what they believe, a sign of arrogance that they can't possibly be wrong and/or the other person isn't as wise as they are concerning Biblical matters.

The fact is...we are human...and to error is human...and the only person, who is free from error is Jesus. To claim you are incapable of error concerning ALL Biblical understanding is in itself an error. We are saved, but we will continue to sin and error from time to time while we are here on earth....or do you disagree?

Jesus warns us of what it means to be like the Pharisees.

Matthew 23:13-14 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You devour widows' houses and for a show make lengthy prayers. Therefore you will be punished more severely."

Be careful that we don't become as the Pharisees were.

Your bro,

Ray

[George Tsoukalas]

John 1:1.14 is a very powerful scriptural passage which speaks to Jesus being God the Son yet maintains a distinction between God the Son and God the Father. "In the beginning was the Word. The Word was with God and the Word was God." (vs 1). ...and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us." (vs 14) The Word is clearly the preincarnate God the Son who became flesh and dwelt among us(Jesus). The Word was with God and the Word is God. How can we read this passage and conclude that Jesus is God the Father?
Jawge

[BLACK WOLF]

Jawge,

Since this is your first time posting on this subject I have seen, I will answer your question as honestly as I can.

You asked - "How can we read this passage and conclude that Jesus is God the Father?"

Here is how I understand it.

The Bible says - "...the Word became flesh and dwelt among us."

Jesus is the Word, therefore we can substitute Jesus wherever Word is used.

For example - "The Word was with God and the Word was God" = Jesus was with God and Jesus was God.

Who is God? God consists of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. In other words, God consists of a mind, a body and a spirit. Each are distinctly unique, yet each are one in the same.

You wouldn't describe someone's mind as their body nor would you describe someone's body as their spirit. BUT...you would describe their mind as part of their body as you would describe the spirit as part of the whole.

Ray

[Bill McNeal]

There is a point when enough is enough.

Jesus didn't sit and argue over and over the same disagreements or questions a believer or non-believer had for Him. He stated His Truth and moved on...unless they chose to believe and follow Him or had another question for Him other than the one that was previously answered. Jesus set the example and we should follow.

I've known you, Mr. McNeal for quite some time and we've gone round and round about these simular issues. When it is obvious neither person or persons are budging in their beliefs, it should be a sign that they are either trying to force or control the other into believing what they believe, a sign of arrogance that they can't possibly be wrong and/or the other person isn't as wise as they are concerning Biblical matters.

The fact is...we are human...and to error is human...and the only person, who is free from error is Jesus. To claim you are incapable of error concerning ALL Biblical understanding is in itself an error. We are saved, but we will continue to sin and error from time to time while we are here on earth....or do you disagree?

Jesus warns us of what it means to be like the Pharisees.

Matthew 23:13-14 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You devour widows' houses and for a show make lengthy prayers. Therefore you will be punished more severely."

Be careful that we don't become as the Pharisees were.

Your bro,

Ray

You known Ray, I cannot help but notice something. You make the claim I should make my case, then "move on", pointing to what Jesus would do, yet you fail to mention anything to the other principles involved in this thread. Why is that Ray?. Could it be that you excuse them from your admonishment because they are proclaiming, what you are proclaming?

Ray, I have not resorted to name calling, (as some have} to present my teaching. I have politely pointed to the Gospel, as my means for admonishing what I feel to be false teaching.

As for us "going round and round", you have me mistaken, because I do not wrestle , or go "round and round" with anyone. I preach the Gospel. Also, I feel that this thread is EXTREMELY productive in teaching those who may be viewing, and not posting. I do not think that it is fair for you to simply decide that it is unproductive because the topic matter does not mesh with your doctrine, and frankly I feel that is why your post was directed at me.

I have also noticed that you continue to post, trying to shore up your trinity doctrine. Would it be fair for me to accuse you of aroggance for doing so? I think not. One thing you will never see me do is to call for the silencing of someone. I will engage anyone using Scripture as my sword.

As for a "Pharisee"

Ray, the Pharisees God defines in Scripture all share a common denominator, and that is their zeal for silencing, removing, squelching, or destroying anyone who dared to challenge their religous beliefs, customs, or doctrines.

Matthew 23:13-14 finds Jesus slamming them for their deceptive false teaching, love of money, and phoney prayers. For this, He would eventually be killed by them. Ray, the pharisees were hardly concerned with preaching the Truth of Gospel, they were more interested in keeping their man created doctrines, and rituals alive, than submitting to the Truth of the Christ.

Shalom!

[Bill McNeal]

John 1:1.14 is a very powerful scriptural passage which speaks to Jesus being God the Son yet maintains a distinction between God the Son and God the Father. "In the beginning was the Word. The Word was with God and the Word was God." (vs 1). ...and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us." (vs 14) The Word is clearly the preincarnate God the Son who became flesh and dwelt among us(Jesus). The Word was with God and the Word is God. How can we read this passage and conclude that Jesus is God the Father?
Jawge

First off, HOW YA BEEN GEORGE!!!!!!!!!

Good to see ya!!!

A Good question Jawge. By reading individual verses it is hard to come to understanding , yet by reading the Bible as a whole, we begin to see. You see my friend, man as a serious flaw, in that he trys to pigeon hole Scriptural Happenings, into his worldly understanding. I have had Mormons ask me, "who was Jesus praying to in the garden Himself?", and my answer is YES!.

You see, in our human minds we cannot grasp how God can be in 2 places, or 3 places at the same time, so man invented a doctrine which then claimed that God was actually 3 different persons. This doctrine has much more in common with the false teachings of Mormon, and the Jehovahs, than it does Biblical Scripture. NOWHERE in Scripture is God called a collection of persons, as the trinitarians claim.

You see, because He is God, God can be both the Word that came to earth, while being the Word that "Is God". This is why Jesus, the Word who lived on the earth said, ......."I and the Father are One". Now George, if Jesus, and the Father are seperate people according to "triune" doctrine, how do we deal with that proclamation of Jesus that says they are One?

I'll ask you this question, that has been so far ignored........If you believe in the triune doctrine, which person of the trinity wrestled Jacob?

Again, good to see ya round my friend..........bill

Shalom!

[BLACK WOLF]

Bill McNeal,

You said - "yet you fail to mention anything to the other principles involved in this thread."

Please elaborate.

I agree you haven't resorted to name calling, but you REPEATEDLY say that ANYONE who disagrees with you is wrong, taking scripture out of context, preaching lies, fails to understand Biblical principles as well you do, etc. and etc.

Yes, my post metioned your name, but it is directed at all of us, which includes me. I don't preach, do as I say and not as I do. I didn't just decide this thread is unproductive because 2 people disagree. It's unproductive based on it's fruit and the fact that people are going over and over certain subjects claiming they are right and the other person fails, is wrong, and or just doesn't understand these Biblical principles as well as the other person does.

It more or less becomes a shouting match based on arrogance and pride.

I will continue to post on these subjects when a question is directed towards me, where someone is truly seeking answers and not just trying to prove me wrong over and over. I will also post when someone new ask a question on a thread, but I am refusing to go over and over the same thing with someone, just to hear myself speak.

Again what WWJD. What is His example throughout the Bible. Does He sit there argueing over and over the same issue with the same person over and over?

As I have seen it, we all use scripture to interpret scripture. It's just that some of us interpret it differently than others do.

I'm not going to try and force you to be silent. You have every right to your opinion and to express it. I want you to. All I am doing is pleaing with you and others to know when enough is enough and when it is appropriate.

Again, we need to use Jesus's example as ours.

Your bro,

Ray

[Bill McNeal]

Bill Lamb, I only based my comment that you were ignoring, because in a prior post you said to me...........

"""This will be my last post in response to anything you post on this or anyother thread on this forum."""

Anyway, glad see you are not :)

Now, you provided some Scripture to support the trinity doctrine. Lets study.



"""I John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."""
----------
Bill, this Scripture in no way suggests that God is made up of 3 persons, but rather that God is One.

You quoted

"""Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen."""
----------
Again, this does not point to God being made up of "persons" but rather it shows the Oneness of God.

You quoted


"""I Cor 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him."""
--------------

Again Bill, you are trying to use this Scripture to support the "seperate persons of the trinity " arguement, and it does Not work. Lets read the Scripture in context it was meant to be in Bill.............


"""The man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know. 3But the man who loves God is known by God.

So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that there is no God but one. For even if there are socalled gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live. """

You see, the Apostle is not seperating Jesus into a person to make his point, rather he proclaims that in a world full of false gods, and lords, there is only one God , and this God is both Father, and Son!

You quoted



"""II Cor 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen."""

Bill, this Scripture tells us that Grace is indeed, through Jesus Christ, and that God is Love, and that his Spirit dwells in us. This Scripture does not seperate these qualities of God into "personages", but rather it unites them in Oneness.

You said........

Bill,

""""I love you in Christ my friend, but this will be my last effort to reveal to you through the Scriptures, not through some document written by man, but through the Scriptures the reality of the Trinity. First and foremost we have to get our arms around what the Trinity is. It is three personages in one Godhead.""""

Bill, and I am going to tell you now, and whenever needed, that you are not trying to reveal Scriptures to me, because the Scriptures were revealed to me when I was sealed with God in His Holy Spirit. What you are trying to do, is to reveal the "trinity doctrine" which was written 300 somes years AFTER the Bible, by using Biblical Scripture to try and justify its false claim that God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost are persons that are seperate. If you can provide on verse of Scripture in which God is refered to as 3 seperate persons, and I actually mean providing the word PERSON, then I will submit to you. Until then, I cannot for sound reasons.
---------

You said,

""""You have asked for one verse that defines it, please read I John 5:7 above. I'll share with you what the Holy Spirit, the same one that entered you after you was saved also entered my after I was saved, has revealed to ME regarding this verse."""

I did read it Bill, and it was revealed to me that it was simply God telling his Children that His great qualities exist as One in Will, and Purpose, and that they are not 3 seperate persons, but rather the Biblically evident ONE. BTW, my friend, my salvation was made only made possible by the Holy Spirit first entering me.

You quoted,

""""1. I John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven,

2. the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost:

3. and these three are one.""""

--------

Great Scripture!

You said............


"""The first part of this verse very clearly states there are (my paraphrase) "...three in heaven that bear record..." The second part clearly states these three are "...the Father, the Word (or Christ Jesus, the Son of God), and the Holy Ghost (or Spirit):" And the third part clearly states "...and these three are one." """""""""

No arguement here Bill, that is clear Scripture

However, here is where you lose it.........



"""That is the Trinity, the Triune Godhead, however you want to define it, it is the three personages of the Godhead, the Father, the Son Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost/Spirit that are one. """"

No its Bill. It may be you saying it's the "trinity", but the Scripture does not say trinity, nor does the Scripture say they are seperate persons, but rather you do. THIS is why I reject your doctrine Bill, because it is not Biblical, and you can try, and try to make Scripture comform to your doctrine, but it won't work.
-------

You said...........


"""I thinking you have been missing the fact that there is agreement, at least on my part that there is one God, but by His Omnipotence and Omnipresence, God has three personages as the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost."""

and I said all along that I agree they are One, but I do not agree with you adding the unBiblical claim that they are seperate persons.

----------

you said..........

"""Who did Christ say sent Him to earth to be a sacrificial Lamb? "It is my Father who hath sent me...""""
-----
Since we agree that the three are One, it is obvious that Jesus, being God, Savior, and Spirit sent himself. It is the human mind that attempts to break God down into 3 persons to placate his logic.

You also said..........


"""My prayer, Bro. Bill, is that you will prayerfully consider these verses and thoughts I have shared you from the Bible, not from the teachings of man."""

Oh Bill, do you realize what you just wrote?. Dear Brother, it is you who have
proliferated the teachings of men, with the teaching of your "trinity doctrine" that came out of the fourth century Roman Catholic Church. Nowhere in my teachings have I used ANY literature, or teachings of men, however you have. The "trinity doctrine" is not found in the Bible, and was wriiten hundreds of years after the Bible was Inspired, and Written.

I know this is hard for not only you, but for those who were raised to believe that this doctrine is sacred. Having to admit that the trinity doctrine is not Biblical, is in effect saying that you have to rethink your entire way of thinking, and perhaps admit that you have been deceived. It's no different than trying to enlighten a Catholic that Mary is not the Mother of God, and that the Pope is not the Head of the Church. The traditions of men are strong, and prideful.

Is it easier to embrace the "trinity doctrine " as truth?. Of course it is, because it neatly packages all the grayness of human thought into a tidy little box that says "mysterious, and not to be understood". Just as men falsely teach the free-will doctrine, so is the trinity doctrine taught, and because it recieves the appeal of the Masses, it is declared Truth. Bill I am not here to convince you, or change your mind. Such a happening MUST come from the Spirit. The Good News, is that regardless, Gods Will , Will be done, for this entire Thing is about Him!

Shalom Bill!!!

[Bill McNeal]

Ray you said...........



""""Bill McNeal,

You said - "yet you fail to mention anything to the other principles involved in this thread."

Please elaborate."""


Glad to. You did not mention anyone else by name, or direct your comments to anyone else.

You also said.........

"""I agree you haven't resorted to name calling, but you REPEATEDLY say that ANYONE who disagrees with you is wrong, taking scripture out of context, preaching lies, fails to understand Biblical principles as well you do, etc. and etc."""""

Yes, but those who did resort to name calling did not have you publicly address them, did they?. Also Ray, I challenge you to post where I said those who do not agree with me are wrong. I do not preach ME Ray, I preach Gospel, the Gospel found in Scripture. I have never claimed to preach Bill McNeal, but rather Gospel, and in doing so, I am charged with rebuking false teaching.

You also said.........


"""Yes, my post metioned your name, but it is directed at all of us, which includes me."""

No it did NOT include "all of us". If it did, you would have addressed "all of us", instead of me. Also, you did NOT include yourself in the admonishment.

You also said..........

"""I don't preach, do as I say and not as I do. I didn't just decide this thread is unproductive because 2 people disagree. It's unproductive based on it's fruit and the fact that people are going over and over certain subjects claiming they are right and the other person fails, is wrong, and or just doesn't understand these Biblical principles as well as the other person does.

It more or less becomes a shouting match based on arrogance and pride."""

Sorry, but I shouted at no one, and my comments are based on Scripture. I only speak for myself.

You also said........

"""I will continue to post on these subjects when a question is directed towards me, where someone is truly seeking answers and not just trying to prove me wrong over and over. I will also post when someone new ask a question on a thread, but I am refusing to go over and over the same thing with someone, just to hear myself speak."""

I do not think anyone here is writing to "hear themselves think" I think you are just becoming angry because some of the teaching isn't to your taste.

You said..........

"""Again what WWJD. What is His example throughout the Bible. Does He sit there argueing over and over the same issue with the same person over and over?"""

Thats easy............

"""In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage–with great patience and careful instruction. For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry."""

You also said............


""""As I have seen it, we all use scripture to interpret scripture. It's just that some of us interpret it differently than others do.

I'm not going to try and force you to be silent. You have every right to your opinion and to express it. I want you to. All I am doing is pleaing with you and others to know when enough is enough and when it is appropriate.""""

I think the Christians on this board know what is appropiate.

Shalom

[Esquire]

Bill McNeal,

I once asked you whether you would be willing to acknowledge that we all see through a glass darkly, and that you could be in error on your reading of the scripture. I don't remember your answer. If you made one, I apologize.

Either way -

Are you you willing to entertain the possibility that you could be in error in your presentation on biblical truth?

Mike

[Bill McNeal]

Bill McNeal,

I once asked you whether you would be willing to acknowledge that we all see through a glass darkly, and that you could be in error on your reading of the scripture. I don't remember your answer. If you made one, I apologize.

Either way -

Are you you willing to entertain the possibility that you could be in error in your presentation on biblical truth?

Mike

Mike, you must have missed this post I made yesterday.......................


Look my friend, I still think you are my brother in Christ, as I do Bill Lamb {even though he is ignoring me} However, I do feel you are being mislead, but that is, what it is, and I feel you are where God intends you to be at this point. I too have been mislead {I spent a year and a half in a Southern Baptist Church}, and can tell you that I simply say PRAISE God for that. You see, I needed to go through that , to get to this. There was a time that I literally calculated my tithe to the dime, and preached the Baptist doctrine loudly, including the trinity/prosperity/nationalist, and freewill doctrine that is hustled in the Baptist Church.

Shalom

[Esquire]

Hey Bill,

I'm sorry man. I must be kind of thick. I did read that post but I did not see an answer to my question in it. I know that you think I'm mislead, and that you admit, or confess, that you once were, but these are not my questions.

My question is for you, right now: Could you be wrong?

Mike

PS: Check only one: __YES __NO

:)

[Bill McNeal]

Yes, I can always be wrong........However the Spirit of Wisdom in me is ALWAYS correct.

Read the second chapter of Pauls first letter to Church in Corinth........It defines it perfectly........

""""When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or superior wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God.For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. I came to you in weakness and fear, and with much trembling. My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power, so that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on God's power.

We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. However, as it is written: “No eye has seen,
no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him”– but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment: “For who has known the mind of the Lord
that he may instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ. """""""

Shalom!

[WildmanSC]

""""I John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."""
----------
Bill, this Scripture in no way suggests that God is made up of 3 persons, but rather that God is One."

Bill McNeal,

I'm sorry, you are ignorant brother (I Th 4:13), this passage doesn't suggest the Father, Son (Word) and Holy Spirit (Ghost) are three in one, it outright states it. If you cannot see and understand that, then refer back to my previous post and start drinking the milk of the word and leave the chewing of the meat to those who have the experience and depth of knowledge to do so.

Likewise, """"Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen."""
----------
Again, this does not point to God being made up of "persons" but rather it shows the Oneness of God."

Bill, this too is so obvious that if you can't see the three personages of the one Godhead and comprehend it, you are blind to the truths in God's Holy Word. You are in essence proclaiming yourself the sole purveyor of truth, and you in fact are not even stating the true context and meaning of God's Word. Bill, you are on dangerous ground when you go there. You are accusing everybody posting on this thread, other than you, of being Pharisetical. Beware, as with the Pharisees pride cometh before a fall.

Bill, You cannot see the forest for the trees. You have ignored a bunch of my questions, and I suspect purposefully so. I'll leave it to you to decide whether you will go back and read my previous two posts and address it all. If you don't, that will state loud and clear to all what I have already observed about you on this forum.

You have accused various people of being angry, including me, when in fact it is you who are in denial and strike out with inflammed language. You don't even know the difference between Roman Catholic, Protestant and Baptist doctrines, yet, you have on this forum lumped them up all as one RC doctrine stemming from the Nicean Diet. That sir, is far from being the truth, and, sadly, you know it.

Bill Lamb

[Cato]

Guys,

Once again, we seem to be allowing emotions to rise, as these issues are being discussed among professing blelievers. The fact that you take your faith seriuosly enough to be able to defend doctrine from the Word is a wonderful thing. But we must keep in mind out here, that many who read are not believers, or are believers who are not so far along in their study of the faith. What they see may appear to be Christians who cannot get along with each other. Please keep our witness to those who may be reading at the front of your thoughts, as you post.

And so I am compelled to ask each of you to watch your attitude, posture, and tone. I hate to be like the "hall monitor", but I also hate to see a thread like this degerate into just an arguement. As I have said before, I understand the personal committment to defend doctrine, and address error. But when it gets down to an argument between a very small group, and none seem to be open to the others viewpoint, maybe it is time to continue the discussion through a PM or drop it all together.

If you continue to post to this thread, please be especially careful about the tone and attitude towards the other person or persons.

Thanks for your understanding and your participation in this forum.

[BLACK WOLF]

Bill McNeal,

I'm sorry you feel that way. My concern isn't for you, because I already know you are saved based on your belief in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior.

My concern is for those that are sitting on the fence reading our arguements over and over with each person telling the other person they are wrong and their belief is un-Biblical.

As far as naming you specifically, it is based on knowing you for some time now without a hint of you changing. I do not know the others as well or have had simular experiences with them.

If you paid attention to my last post it should be clear that it was directed at everyone...even though I used your name as an example.

Secondly, I don't recall anyone calling anyone names...unless you consider telling someone they are ignorant.

I've made no threat of trying to get any of your threads pulled or even plan to, so your insecurity or fear is unwarranted.

This is a plea for you to learn when enough is enough and when it is time to move and discuss it another day or better yet...more appropriately. There is NO threat to silence you.

But it is your choice, you will do what you believe is the right thing to do.

Your bro,

Ray

[Bill McNeal]

Guys,

Once again, we seem to be allowing emotions to rise, as these issues are being discussed among professing blelievers. The fact that you take your faith seriuosly enough to be able to defend doctrine from the Word is a wonderful thing. But we must keep in mind out here, that many who read are not believers, or are believers who are not so far along in their study of the faith. What they see may appear to be Christians who cannot get along with each other. Please keep our witness to those who may be reading at the front of your thoughts, as you post.

And so I am compelled to ask each of you to watch your attitude, posture, and tone. I hate to be like the "hall monitor", but I also hate to see a thread like this degerate into just an arguement. As I have said before, I understand the personal committment to defend doctrine, and address error. But when it gets down to an argument between a very small group, and none seem to be open to the others viewpoint, maybe it is time to continue the discussion through a PM or drop it all together.

If you continue to post to this thread, please be especially careful about the tone and attitude towards the other person or persons.

Thanks for your understanding and your participation in this forum.

Mitchell, I totally agree with your post, and I really think this can be a constructive thread IF we refrain from calling people names because they refuse to accept certain doctrine. I think that each Brother should present his Wisdom, and allow the seed to grow. However, personal attacks, for addresses only weaken positions, and make a mockery out of our desire for unity.

I for one preach here because I am concerned with, and desire unity among the Elect. This is why I try to avoid using doctrines of men, opting instead for Scripture. I think the Church would be much better served if man spent more time trying to glorify Scripture, rather than using Scripture to glorify the teaches of our select doctrines, theologians, ect.......If you stop at take notice you will see that the ALL the arguements on these matters stem from Brothers in Christ, who are trying to prove the validity of the teachings of men.

Shalom!

[Esquire]

Thanks, Bill.

So when you speak on these posts, is it you, or the Spirit of Wisdom in you who speaks?

Is any part of your posts 'you trying to understand this Spirit of Wisdom', or is it simply the 'Spirit of Wisdom' with whom I speak?

[Bill McNeal]

Bill Lamb, you said to me........

"""Bill McNeal,

I'm sorry, you are ignorant brother (I Th 4:13),"""

Well Bill, I have been called worse :), but I will address the Scripture.....

"""Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. """

Are you saying I am lost Bill?. This Scripture is saying just that. Either way, I forgive you.

You also said.......

"""Bill, this too is so obvious that if you can't see the three personages of the one Godhead and comprehend it, you are blind to the truths in God's Holy Word. """

------

Bill, I do believe I am blind to Gods Truth just because I refuse to submit that God is 3 persons. nowhere does God refer to Himself as a person in Scripture, let alone 3 persons.

You also said


""""You are in essence proclaiming yourself the sole purveyor of truth,"""
---------------

I have never done that. I just simply said that the word "person" is never used to describe God in Scripture. If it is, please provide such Scripture.

You also said..............
-


"""and you in fact are not even stating the true context and meaning of God's Word. Bill, you are on dangerous ground when you go there. You are accusing everybody posting on this thread, other than you, of being Pharisetical. Beware, as with the Pharisees pride cometh before a fall."""

I have simply quoted Scripture that says that God, Jesus, and Spirit are One. I maybe on "dangerous ground" with trinitarians for refusing to accept their claim that God is three different people, but I am willing to take that risk :) Also I have accused no one of being a pharisee on this thread. However I simply pointed out that the Pharisees placed their traditions ahead of God. Am I wrong?


You also said..............



"""Bill, You cannot see the forest for the trees. You have ignored a bunch of my questions, and I suspect purposefully so. I'll leave it to you to decide whether you will go back and read my previous two posts and address it all. If you don't, that will state loud and clear to all what I have already observed about you on this forum."""

-------------

Bill, I have tryed to address every post you have made, along with addressing others, and addressing statements of theologians. You simply do not like my answers. That is not my doing, but yours my friend.

You also said.........

"""You have accused various people of being angry, including me, when in fact it is you who are in denial and strike out with inflammed language. """

Bill you are angry. You have called me several choice names including "immature", "ignorant", "deceptive", " blaspemous" and so forth. {which BTW seems to have been deleted???} However, I have used no such language in your direction, but feel free to post any if you can.

You said............

"""You don't even know the difference between Roman Catholic, Protestant and Baptist doctrines, yet, you have on this forum lumped them up all as one RC doctrine stemming from the Nicean Diet. That sir, is far from being the truth, and, sadly, you know it. """

Bill the trinity doctrine came out of Catholic "Church", and you follow the Trinity Doctrine. Hired Clergy, Pulpits, Steeples and such all came out of the Catholic "Church", which was introduced by pagans.

Bill, there is little use in debating you further. To do so will only make you angrier, therefore in your best interest, I will no longer debate you on this thread.

Shalom!

[WildmanSC]

"I have never done that. I just simply said that the word "person" is never used to describe God in Scripture. If it is, please provide such Scripture."

Let's see, where do we start. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, in their entirety. Was Jesus Christ not a person? Albeit He was never greater than man, He also was never less than God. Every miracle He performed while He was on earth was not in His own power, but rather by the power of the Holy Spirit. His sinless perfection was possible only because His Father was the Heavenly Father, His mother was a virgin and He was conceived and born in purity. He remained pure until He became sin for all of humanity in the last hours on the Cross at Calvary before He proclaimed first "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" and then "It is finished!" Those three words are the three greatest words that have ever been uttered. They are even greater than Jesus loves me. It is great that Jesus loves me, but had He not finished the work of Calvary his love for me would have been for nought.

To verify once again the personage of God, please look at Heb 1:3, 5, 8-10 in the following:

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

Once again, it is obvious that God the Father and the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, are two separate personages, person in vs 3, but one God, see also I John 5:7, below.

I John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

The question comes to mind why did He ask the question "My God, my God why hast thou forsaken me?" I guess the obvious answer is He had to ask it of Himself to make sure we knew there was no such thing as a triune Godhead.

Bill

[Bill McNeal]

Thanks, Bill.

So when you speak on these posts, is it you, or the Spirit of Wisdom in you who speaks?

Is any part of your posts 'you trying to understand this Spirit of Wisdom', or is it simply the 'Spirit of Wisdom' with whom I speak?

Mike, the answer is in the Scripture I quoted. Pray, and re-read it. I think you'll see it. Good questions however!

Shalom!

[Bill McNeal]

I asked this question before, but perhaps it was lost in the mix......... For Those who adhere to a trinity doctrine that teaches that God is 3 different persons...............What "person" of God wrestled with Jacob?

Shalom!

[George Tsoukalas]

Hi Bill. What's up? Since no man has seen the Father. God the Son wrestled with Jacob. Jawge

[Bill McNeal]

Hey George, how do you know it wasn't the Spirit?. Trinitarians say it is a person too? How do you know?

[Bill McNeal]

BTW George, I should point out that that was an EXCELLENT point of Scripture you pointed out!

Shalom!

[WildmanSC]

Who was the fourth man in the furnace?

Bill

[WildmanSC]

Hi Bill. What's up? Since no man has seen the Father. God the Son wrestled with Jacob. Jawge

George,

That is not entirely accurate, one man, His Son, Jesus Christ has seen the Father. :) :amen:

Bill

[Bill McNeal]

Jesus Christ

[WildmanSC]

Who was in the burning bush?

Bill

[Bill McNeal]

Well, could it have been the Spirit???.......The Spirit is a "person" right????????? :)

[larry]

"who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.
Hebrews 1;3 NKJ

[Bill McNeal]

larry, in that translation, the Word person means "being". I would ask for you to provide Scripture showing where God says He is divided into 3 different Persons.

Shalom!

[WildmanSC]

"who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.
Hebrews 1;3 NKJ

Larry,

You've made a point I've been endeavoring to get across. I've done it by asking the question "Where does the Son sit in Heaven?" I have received the response "At the right hand of the Father.", but have been unable to get the darkened glass to show through the fact that albeit they are one, they are two personages sitting beside each other on the throne. The word personage is tripping some folk up because they are reading it as person. Maybe I can explain it this way. Christ was in fact in His earthly ministry a person. He also was bodily ascended into Heaven still possessing the features of a man, albeit with a glorified body and as the sacrificial Lamb. The two other personages or dispensations, God the Father and the Holy Spirit are one with Christ, but different in that the Holy Spirit is a Spirit that cannot be seen, and the Heavenly Father is (??), only the Lord Jesus Christ, who was with Him and the Holy Spirit when He, Jesus Christ, created the heavens, the earth, the animals and man and woman, knows what He looks like. Someday, we who are born again through the shed blood of Jesus Christ will see Him, too, when we either die, or the Bride/Church is Raptured and meets the Lord Jesus Christ in the air. :amen:

Bill

[WildmanSC]

Are we not each a human BEING? Was not the Lord Jesus Christ a human BEING (while at the same time God)? In this instance in Heb 1:3 the reference is to the Lord Jesus Christ. Are we denying that He was a person while here on earth? Is the body of Christ that ascended into Heaven not a person?

Bill Lamb

[Esquire]

Bill,

Thanks for the kind encouragement about the quality of my question. But don't lend me too many props, I'm still just a slow country boy. :) If you are willing, please put your answer in your own plain words, from Bill to Mike, so that I can easily understand your answer.

Here's my question: Is any part of your posts 'you trying to understand this Spirit of Wisdom', or is it simply the 'Spirit of Wisdom' with whom I speak?

I also have two other questions, if you don't mind. They can be answered seperately:

1) Is Jesus the only person in the Godhead?

2) When Christ died on the cross as payment for the debt of humanities sins, to whom was the debt paid, and by whom was it paid?

Mike

Mike, the answer is in the Scripture I quoted. Pray, and re-read it. I think you'll see it. Good questions however!

Shalom!

[George Tsoukalas]

I'll put in my 2 cents. Good Questions, Mike. (1) Within the nature of the one True God( Is 43; 10:11), there are 3 persons -God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. Each is fully God and each shares the same nature. The word persons is tripping people up. It comes from the Greek word for faces. It is not mean to denote persons such as we. Namely, God has chosen to reveal Himself to us as God the Father( John 1:1, Mt 6:9-13), God the Son ( John 1:1,14) and God the Holy Spirit (Acts 5:3,5-Peter lies to the Holy Spirit; God) . Jesus is the God-man(Col 2:9). He is fully God and He is fully man. (2) The only way for the debt to be paid was God Himself to die on the cross for us.
Further thoughts. You can't take 1 scriptural verse and base your entire belief system upon it. Who Jesus is to you--is about as important as it gets. There are many Jesus' in the kingdom of the cults and none of them are God the Son 2nd person of the Holy Trinity.Also the Old Testament must be interpreted in light of the New Testament. We should look at that passage (Mighty God, Everlasting Father and Prince of Peace) in Isaiah in the light of New Testament teachings since they are meant to illumine our hearts and minds and the NT is the fulfillment of the OT. That's the number 1 rule of Biblical interpretation. The NT must be seen as that which further illuminates and explains the OT and not the other way around. You Do Not see any NT teachings where Jesus is God the Father. That's just plain a false teaching. These are all difficult teachings to accept, teach and believe. They are neverthless orthodox teachings and that's orthodox as in then right way. Don't know what else to say so I will stop and let God the Holy Spirit do his work. Jawge

[Bill McNeal]

Bill,

Thanks for the kind encouragement about the quality of my question. But don't lend me too many props, I'm still just a slow country boy. :) If you are willing, please put your answer in your own plain words, from Bill to Mike, so that I can easily understand your answer.

Here's my question: Is any part of your posts 'you trying to understand this Spirit of Wisdom', or is it simply the 'Spirit of Wisdom' with whom I speak?

I also have two other questions, if you don't mind. They can be answered seperately:

1) Is Jesus the only person in the Godhead?

2) When Christ died on the cross as payment for the debt of humanities sins, to whom was the debt paid, and by whom was it paid?

Mike

Mike, though I firmly believe that a Christians Wisdom, or should I say ability to grasp the things of God, is from God, ie the Spirit, to contend that everything he says or does is of the Spirit simply denies Scripture, therefore , to answer your question, it is very possible that what you are seeing me write is from the wisdom of Bill McNeal, thus subject to error. There is not a single Christian who can claim that his comments are always Spirit driven, HOWEVER , ANY Truth that the Christian utters is from God. I firmly believe Truely Godly men are capable of being mislead, and this includes myself.

Now for your other questions, I believe that Jesus is God, the facet of God that we see Scripture call The Son of God, The Son of Man, First born among the Dead, and so forth. The other facets of God are God the Father, and God the Holy Spirit. While these three facets play very detailed roles in Scripture, they are NOT seperate persons, therefore Jesus is not a seperate "person" , or "person" of the Godhead, but rather a facet of it, that has the ability to become human. I truely believe this is where the trinitarians used the human wisdom I spoke of earlier, to build their doctrine around. You see the error of the trinity doctrine is NOT its claim that the Godhead is ONE, but rather its claim that it is seperate.

Now for your second question......This will no doubt start a firestorm among the crowd, but here goes.........First off, popular teaching claims that Jesus died for everyone, which is totally untrue. Jesus died for the Elect, ie the Believers. Scripture is wrought with this, but John 3:14-18. says it best. Now, with that said, lets address the two sub questions, in your question.........to whom was the debt paid???

Well, since man was only deserving of death, we know the debt was not paid to him. The debt was paid to God. You see, the death sentence handed down to Adam, was never abolished. Their needed to be Blood spilled to cover this debt, therefore God Himself, bore upon Himself the death sentence He gave to mankind, and He died that second death, and became the "Begotten", the "First Born from among the Dead". In short my Friend, our Lord Jesus Christ went to Hell, and back for us, to pay our debt, that our miserable butts were unable to pay, and He paid by, and to Himself!!!!!!!!..............PRAISE BE TO GOD WHO REIGNS ON HIGH!!!!!!!!!

Shalom!

[Bill McNeal]

I'm going to work with my sons today. Will respond later. Hope this thread keeps going in its recent direction, for I feel all may benefit from it. I know I am!

Shalom!

[BLACK WOLF]

AWESOME post Bill! I completely agree.

Good thing there was no mention of freewill or no freewill ;) That is the only area I see where we disagree.

Your bro,

Ray

[WildmanSC]

Actually, John 3:14-18 hardly says that Jesus Christ only died for the elect. In fact, the term elect is not even mentioned.

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

I've posted John 3:14-21 to show the full context. John 3:15-16 clearly state "...whosoever believeth..." Furthermore, it is clear than some men chose the darkness of their sin, rather than the light, Jesus Christ, from John 3:19-21. And finally, John 3:17-18 make it clear that God sent not HIs Son to condemn the world, not even a portion of it, but that the world through Him might be saved (the world in the entirety) if...He believeth on him (is not condemned)...but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

Let the scriptures speak for themselves rather than a passing reference be made to them and something said about them, "the Elect", that is not in the passages. We do the scriptures a disjustice when we make reference to them and quote them out of context as saying something they don't say or intend to say. It is much like the justice system in our country today. So many of the courts have gone way past the original intent of interpreting the law, starting with the constitutional law, and have become makers of law from the bench stating "...the constitution is a living document..."

The Word of God IS a living document, but that does not mean it is to be changed in statement or meaning by man to suit his good pleasure or desire. It is intriguing, those whom I have actually met in real life and discussed their belief in the doctrine of "Election" do so because they cannot share with you their salvation experience. They cannot tell you where, when and how they were saved. Furthermore, they cannot point to Biblical proof of how they were saved. They merely state "I am of the Elect and was saved by God in His timing and in His good pleasure." I for one would not like to be in the position of having my assurance of salvation based on such a weak basis.

I KNOW when I got saved saved on that cold January night in 1975. I was there and under the convicting power of the Holy Spirit I acknowledged the Father as being Holy, the Son as having died for my sins and risen from the tomb, repented of my sins, asked Christ to wash away my sins with His precious blood and to come in to my heart and life as personal Saviour. Upon saying Amen, a sense of joy flooded my soul, the result of the Holy Spirit entering my heart and giving life to my dead spirit, and I also sensed a load being lifted off of my shoulders. That load was my burden of sin which I had been carrying for 28 years, Christ took that burden and placed it on His shoulders, although in fact He had already born it on His shoulders nearly 2000 years before!! :amen: :amen: :amen: :amen:

Bill

[George Tsoukalas]

Speaks to the persons of the Godhead sharing in the same nature. That's all. Also I see no comment on my post which took me quite awhile to write. Interesting.

Jawge

[BLACK WOLF]

Good post...Jawge

Ray

[George Tsoukalas]

...is a wonderful statement of faith which I recite every sunday. Bill, you left out most of it.
"I believe in one God: the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible;

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God: begotten of his Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, through whom all things were made. . . "
The rest-
"Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven and was incarnate of the virgin Mary and became man. He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate. He rose on the third day an ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead whose rein will have no end."
And I believe in the Holy Spirit the Lord the giver of life who proceeds from the Father who together with the Father and Son is worshipped and glorified who spoke through the prophets.
And I believe in one holy Catholic and Apostolic church and in one baptism for the forgiveness of sins." I'm quoting from memory and I'm not getting any younger so pardon me if I left some things out. It was not intentional.
I believe someone said they liked the Nicene Creed. Quoted a third of it and then said they were not Trinitarians. Let's look at the Creed. How can we conclude from it that Jesus is the Father? Question was rhetorical. Jawge

[WildmanSC]

Speaks to the persons of the Godhead sharing in the same nature. That's all. Also I see no comment on my post which took me quite awhile to write. Interesting.

Jawge

Jawge,

You saw no comment from me, because I'm in agreement with what you said. My statements are usually to clarify, or correct the error in, something in statements made by others. If it's not Biblically based, or is out of context, it is in error and must be addressed as such.

It's good to see you posting over here, Brother.

Bill Lamb

[WildmanSC]

Jawge,

I don't believe anyone posted a comment that he liked the Nicine Creed and then stated he didn't believe in the Trinity. Actually, what has been posted is the Trinity is the doctrine of man, not of the Bible, and was introduced by the Catholic Church at the Nicine Creed and has since been adopted by "the Christian churches." No definition has been given as to what the "the Christian churches" are, but, from all I've read it would be my understanding that they are churches that "...meet in buildings with steeples on top, take offerings, have paid Pastoral staff, and teach the erroneous doctrines of the Trinity and man's will (free will?) to choose to believe, or not believe, in the Saviour and the gospel of Christ Jesus and Him crucified and resurrected."

By the way, that is NOT my position. It is just a summation of what I have seen posted by a few.

Bill Lamb

[TODD OTT]

Gentelmen:

I have been following for a few days in the background.

My question is foir Bill McNeal.

Into Whos hands did Jesus commit his spirit as his last woeds on the cross?

[George Tsoukalas]

Bill Lamb, that's fine and we can talk about that but the issue is the Trinity. Let's not get sidetracked.None of those issues would divide us as believers in the one true and only God of the Bible.. How we see Christ would. Quite frankly I wannt nothing to do with an organization that is non Trinitarian. If Bill wanted to the Nicene Creed he should have quoted all of it not 1/3 of it, and leave out the parts that say the Holy Spirit is Lord. That's just not right. Denying the diety of Christ in all its fullness, denying that Jesus is God the Son who is separate and distinct from the Father yet sharing in the same nature and denying the essential role of the Holy Spirt in man's salvation. That is --not seeing the Holy Spirit as God. Well it's just plain not orthodox. I tried in a post before to supply scriptural references but to no avail 'cause no one even read it and commented on it. Straight from the heart. May the Lord bless and I pray the Holy Spirit will convict. May the Christ of the Bible work in our lives as a testament of our beliefs. Jawge

[Esquire]

Wildman,

Just a quick aside on the Nicene Creed. The word "catholic" as used in the creed means "universal". The Church was founded through the efforts of the apostles and it's mission is "catholic," or "universal," meaning that it's mission extends to all mankind.

I will have to let someone else speak on the subject of baptism as it is used in the Nicene Creed.

Mike

[Esquire]

I just got here and I'm working backwards. Jawge made some great points in his post.

I think Jawge's point about scriptural interpretation is right on and especially helpful, in this context.

I have some follow up questions I want to ask but will do so later simply because I am in a bit of a time crunch at the moment.

Mike

[Esquire]

Mike, though I firmly believe that a Christians Wisdom, or should I say ability to grasp the things of God, is from God, ie the Spirit, to contend that everything he says or does is of the Spirit simply denies Scripture, therefore , to answer your question, it is very possible that what you are seeing me write is from the wisdom of Bill McNeal, thus subject to error. There is not a single Christian who can claim that his comments are always Spirit driven, HOWEVER , ANY Truth that the Christian utters is from God. I firmly believe Truely Godly men are capable of being mislead, and this includes myself.

Now for your other questions, I believe that Jesus is God, the facet of God that we see Scripture call The Son of God, The Son of Man, First born among the Dead, and so forth. The other facets of God are God the Father, and God the Holy Spirit. While these three facets play very detailed roles in Scripture, they are NOT seperate persons, therefore Jesus is not a seperate "person" , or "person" of the Godhead, but rather a facet of it, that has the ability to become human. . .

Now for your second question...............to whom was the debt paid???

Well, since man was only deserving of death, we know the debt was not paid to him. The debt was paid to God. You see, the death sentence handed down to Adam, was never abolished. Their needed to be Blood spilled to cover this debt, therefore God Himself, bore upon Himself the death sentence He gave to mankind, and He died that second death, and became the "Begotten", the "First Born from among the Dead". In short my Friend, our Lord Jesus Christ went to Hell, and back for us, to pay our debt, that our miserable butts were unable to pay, and He paid by, and to Himself!!!!!!!!..............PRAISE BE TO GOD WHO REIGNS ON HIGH!!!!!!!!!

Shalom!

Thank you for your response, Bill. I have only included part of your response above because I don't want to get sidetracked on that "firestorm" :) .

But I have a couple more questions that your answer raises, for me:

(1) If Jesus is only a part of God (Your word was "facet") then: Would you say that Jesus "all human" but only "partly God"?

(2) What do you think actually happens in those instances in the bible where two (I call them persons) of the Godhead are present together, yet distinguished and distinguishable (according to scriture), and talking to each other, or taking independent actions? There are many examples in the bible of what I'm talking about. At Jesus' baptism, for example, the Father and the Holy Spirit are also present. The Spirit of God descends like a dove, and the Father says, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." (Matthew 3:17). All three are together, in one place, at one time, doing or saying different things. Would you explain this to me in light of your "facets" position? Thanks.

(3) I have always seen the act of atonement on the cross as a relational act of sacrifice to satisfy a Holy God. Under my understanding, we are not seperated from God because we broke a rule, but because a Holy God cannot look upon sin, into which we are conceived. The blood of Christ cleanses us from all unrighteousness, (in my understanding), enabling us to reunite in fellowship with a Holy, relational God. This whole business is about the reality Holiness and Sin. In other words, God did not go through Calvery because He was too stubborn to break a rule that he made.

This is a very difficult question to ask and phrase. Please hang with me as I try to articulate my concern. My understanding has always been that of a Relational (triune) God, whose death on the cross was necessary because of who He is, not because of a rule He made. When this notion is changed to a multifaceted God who is essentially impersonal (meaning he was able to maintain an non-relational existence from all eternity), it seems to make a big difference. Now there is a God who comes to earth to commit a sort of Divine suicide in order to keep his own rules. To simply remain consistent. The conversations that take place between Himself, the Word and the Spirit seem more like "divinely inspired" trickery. In other words, why would God inspire the recording of, in scripture, interactions and conversations between . . . Himself? Especially if, as you say, God only talks to himself in these instances. It seems unnecessary.

It just sounds more like a cosmic game than it does a relational act necessitated by a Holy God. The recording in Scripture of stuff that would amount to misleading nonsense (if there were no persons of the Trinity); such as: committing His Spirit on the Cross, asking the Father to forgive them, and so on, would further lead me to think that this "multi-faceted" was just playing games, rather than relating to his creation in a personal meaningful, way.

OK - I'd like your comments on this number 3, which is perhaps a question and a concern.

(4) Please define "propitiation"

Thanks Bill,
Mike

[Bill McNeal]

Mike, I am glad to "try" and answer any question that is truely asked in sincerity as yours seem to be..........

You asked.........

"""(1) If Jesus is only a part of God (Your word was "facet") then: Would you say that Jesus "all human" but only "partly God"?"""

I believe that Jesus is ALL God, and still lived for 33 years in the flesh as a human man.

You also asked.........

"""(2) What do you think actually happens in those instances in the bible where two (I call them persons) of the Godhead are present together, yet distinguished and distinguishable (according to scriture), and talking to each other, or taking independent actions? There are many examples in the bible of what I'm talking about. At Jesus' baptism, for example, the Father and the Holy Spirit are also present. The Spirit of God descends like a dove, and the Father says, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." (Matthew 3:17). All three are together, in one place, at one time, doing or saying different things. Would you explain this to me in light of your "facets" position? Thanks."""

Mike, I really don't think it needs an explanation. If we can grasp the concept that God is Sovereign, that He is Omnipotent, that He is eternal, that He is without boundries, we can begin to Understand that A God, Whose Word calls Himself One, can still do such things. This is my whole issue with the trinity doctrine. The trinity doctrine was not formulated by men to define who God really is according to Scripture. God IS!. God WAS, God WILL BE. God does not need such nonsense to define Himself to His Children. The trinity doctrine was invented to "try" and define who God is according to men. It's amazing to me that Christians who profess that God has the ability to see into everyones heart, to know the numbers of hairs on our heads, to create a hummingbird, to part seas, to bring about plagues, to BUILD THE WORLD, yet cannot carry on a conversation with Himself????. It the human logic bro. It is what keeps us from growing.

You also said.........



"""(3) I have always seen the act of atonement on the cross as a relational act of sacrifice to satisfy a Holy God. Under my understanding, we are not seperated from God because we broke a rule, but because a Holy God cannot look upon sin, into which we are conceived."""""

Yes Mike, but the sin came from disobiedience. In order for fellowship to continue with the Elect, the Blood of Jesus had to redeem us from the second death, {Hell}} which the disobiedience {sin} earned us, for by Gods own Word , the wages of such sin, is death, not a bodily death, but rather the second death. For God so loved that He gave His only Begotten {First born among the dead} Son, stating that the Elect {The Believers} would not perish, while at the same time stating that the non Believers were ALREADY doomed.

You also said.............


"""The blood of Christ cleanses us from all unrighteousness, (in my understanding), enabling us to reunite in fellowship with a Holy, relational God. This whole business is about the reality Holiness and Sin. In other words, God did not go through Calvery because He was too stubborn to break a rule that he made.

This is a very difficult question to ask and phrase. Please hang with me as I try to articulate my concern. My understanding has always been that of a Relational (triune) God, whose death on the cross was necessary because of who He is, not because of a rule He made. When this notion is changed to a multifaceted God who is essentially impersonal (meaning he was able to maintain an non-relational existence from all eternity), it seems to make a big difference. Now there is a God who comes to earth to commit a sort of Divine suicide in order to keep his own rules. To simply remain consistent. The conversations that take place between Himself, the Word and the Spirit seem more like "divinely inspired" trickery. In other words, why would God inspire the recording of, in scripture, interactions and conversations between . . . Himself? Especially if, as you say, God only talks to himself in these instances. It seems unnecessary.

It just sounds more like a cosmic game than it does a relational act necessitated by a Holy God. The recording in Scripture of stuff that would amount to misleading nonsense (if there were no persons of the Trinity); such as: committing His Spirit on the Cross, asking the Father to forgive them, and so on, would further lead me to think that this "multi-faceted" was just playing games, rather than relating to his creation in a personal meaningful, way."""

Brother, you are seeking Truth, and your words here reflect that. Actually Mike, I believe Scripture paints a very personal, loving, and warm portrait of the Father,Son, and Ghost. The submission of Christ washing the feet of His followers points to His desire for human submission to one another.......Does not "Jesus Wept" speak of the compassion of our Lord, and Savior?. Does not the Gifts of Wisdom from the Holy Ghost show us the Concern of a Heavenly Father?.

Brother, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit all exist as One in Purpose!

You asked.........



"""(4) Please define "propitiation""""


According to Scripture, it seems to point to redemption, atonement, and so forth.

[Bill McNeal]

Gentelmen:

I have been following for a few days in the background.

My question is foir Bill McNeal.

Into Whos hands did Jesus commit his spirit as his last woeds on the cross?

Todd Ott, my Bible says............"and when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father into thy hands I commend my spirit"

Now, I have a few questions for you......... Is this not evident to you by the Inspired Scriptures of Gods Bible?. Is it soo unclear to you, that you must hold up a doctrine of the catholcs, written hundreds of years after God Inspired His Holy Bible to be able to grasp it?



To the trinitarians here.......Since you point to this POST BIBLICAL catholic created doctrine as Truth, what of these POST BIBLICAL catholic doctrines????.............Dates are A.D. dates.............

310 Prayers for Dead, Sign of Cross
320 Wax Candles
375 Veneration of Angels & Saints
394 Mass - Daily Celebration, Attendance Obligatory (11th Century) 431 Worship of Mary - Mother of God (Council Ephesus)
500 Vestments - Dress for Priests
593 Doctrine of Purgatory (Pope Gregory, 1439 Dogma, Council Florence) 600 Latin Language - Pray Worship
600 Prayers to Mary
610 Papacy - Title of Pope Universal (Phocas Boniface III)
709 Kissing Pope's Feet & Ring (Emperors pagan custom)
750 Pope Power of World (Pepin - France, Stephen II - Italy)
788 Worship Cross, Images, Relics (Dowager, Pope Hadrian I)
850 Holy Water - Salt Blessed
890 Veneration of Joseph (Husband of Mary)
965 Baptism of Bells (Pope John 14)
995 Canonization of Dead Saints (Pope John 15)
998 Fasting on Friday - Lent
1079 Celibacy for Priests (Pope Hildebrand Boniface III)
1090 Rosary Beads (Peter - Hermit, used by Hindus - Mohammedans) 1184 Inquisition, Heretics Killed (Council of Veronica)
1190 Indulgences Sold (Protestant Reformation, 16th Century)
1215 Transubstantiation (Pope Innocent 3)
1215 Confession of Priest (Pope Innocent 3, Lateran Council)
1220 Adoration of the Water - Host (Pope Honorius)
1287 Scapular (Simon Stock English Monk, Virgin Mary to Protect) 1414 No Cup of Wine (Council Constance, Just Bread)
1439 Sacraments - 7 of them
1508 Ave Maria Prayer (Pope Sixtus V, Completed 16th Century) 1545 Council Trent (Equal to Bible)
1546 Apocryphal Added to Bible
1560 Creed (Pope Pius 4)
1854 Immaculate Conception (Pope Pius 10)
1870 Papal Infallibility (Dogma) 1907 Modernism Condemned (Pope Pius 11)
1930 Public Schools Condemned (Pope Pius 11)
1931 Mary is Mother of God (Pope Pius 11)
1950 Assumption of Mary (Pope Pius 12, Dogma


Well, is the Truth in these Doctrines, and Creeds????????

Shalom!

[WildmanSC]

"stating that the Elect {The Believers} would not perish, while at the same time stating that the non Believers were ALREADY doomed. "

Change God's word to meet your doctrine. Now who is accusing whom of doing that? The above quote is out of John 3:16 and 3:18. The word ELECT does not appear in either of these verses. Just because someone ELECTS to insert the word does not make it fact and truth. In fact, it just makes it a man made doctrine, not a true and faithful to the scriptures doctrine.

Bill Lamb

[George Tsoukalas]

Bill, that's quite a list. But again I prefer to keep the discussion centered on the Trinity and to do so by using the Bible which is the infallible word of God. For the record though I am not Catholic I am Greek Orthodox. Our priests can trace their Apostolic origins right down to the Disciples of Christ. St Polycarp, for example, was a disciple of John. Perhaps some day I will share Polycarps reminiscences about John that he related to St Irenaeus. This is all a part of church history and reading the church fathers has increased my faith. This discussion is for the non Trinitarians in a spirit of love so that they might worship Him in all his fullness. I went to church tonight and prayed that we may all worship God according to His will. I know the word Trinity does not appear in the Bible but neither does the word elephant and we now they exist. The word Trinity is used by men to explain the nature of God. This is the way God has Chosen to reveal Himself to his creation right from the beginning (Gen 1:26). Let's look at Jesus' baptism (Mt 3:13-15). Here God the Father is present and spoke. God the Son was present and was baptized. The Spirit of God descended on Jesus like a dove. Then there is the Great Commission (Mt 28: 16-20). "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations baptizing them in the name of the Father, and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Please note the Greek says name (singular). Yet there is a distinction in the Godhead here since all the Persons of the Trinity were mentioned. Let me reiterate that the Greek uses the word "faces" to refer to the ways God has chosen to reveal Himself so as not to confuse the issue. So to summarize within the one nature there is a Person called the Father (John 17:5, John 5:18)), there is a Person called the Son (Mt 24:30, 37) and a Person called the Holy Spirit ( Act 5:3-5) Now since there can only be one God (Is 43 10-12). There are more scriptural references but these should be enough. God must be Triune then. I pray the Holy Spirit will convict your minds and hearts. As Christians we should be in the telling business; we must leave the convicting to the Holy Spirit and He will do his job well. I did the best I could with the telling. May the Lord bless you all. George

[Bill McNeal]

Bill, that's quite a list. But again I prefer to keep the discussion centered on the Trinity and to do so by using the Bible which is the infallible word of God. For the record though I am not Catholic I am Greek Orthodox. Our priests can trace their Apostolic origins right down to the Disciples of Christ. St Polycarp, for example, was a disciple of John. Perhaps some day I will share Polycarps reminiscences about John that he related to St Irenaeus. This is all a part of church history and reading the church fathers has increased my faith. This discussion is for the non Trinitarians in a spirit of love so that they might worship Him in all his fullness. I went to church tonight and prayed that we may all worship God according to His will. I know the word Trinity does not appear in the Bible but neither does the word elephant and we now they exist. The word Trinity is used by men to explain the nature of God. This is the way God has Chosen to reveal Himself to his creation right from the beginning (Gen 1:26). Let's look at Jesus' baptism (Mt 3:13-15). Here God the Father is present and spoke. God the Son was present and was baptized. The Spirit of God descended on Jesus like a dove. Then there is the Great Commission (Mt 28: 16-20). "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations baptizing them in the name of the Father, and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Please note the Greek says name (singular). Yet there is a distinction in the Godhead here since all the Persons of the Trinity were mentioned. Let me reiterate that the Greek uses the word "faces" to refer to the ways God has chosen to reveal Himself so as not to confuse the issue. So to summarize within the one nature there is a Person called the Father (John 17:5, John 5:18)), there is a Person called the Son (Mt 24:30, 37) and a Person called the Holy Spirit ( Act 5:3-5) Now since there can only be one God (Is 43 10-12). There are more scriptural references but these should be enough. God must be Triune then. I pray the Holy Spirit will convict your minds and hearts. As Christians we should be in the telling business; we must leave the convicting to the Holy Spirit and He will do his job well. I did the best I could with the telling. May the Lord bless you all. George

George, I am going to post a comment directly from an offical of the Greek Orthodox Church, which sums up what I have been speaking about with regards to

http://www.goarch.org/

""""The Orthodox Christian should know the content of his religion as taught by the Church. He should be guided in studying what the Church has in its written (Bible) and unwritten (Sacred Tradition) teaching. The Orthodox Church is the only Church which has maintained from the beginning a coherent interpretation of its teaching. The Church approves of each member reading alone and in general talking about his religion. But it discourages conclusions based on the individual's personal interpretation. """"

I can't help but notice that your "church" discourages personal interpretation of Scripture George. Are you saying that your Church is Perfect in Truth George???

Now, to address your other comments.

You said........

"""I am not Catholic I am Greek Orthodox."""

You are a catholic George, and your own church recognizes that. You follow the post Biblical traditions created by catholic men, such as calling Mary the Mother God , {which by the way, is incorrect, because Mary is the Mother of Jesus, not God."

Also you said..........


"""Our priests can trace their Apostolic origins right down to the Disciples of Christ."""

First of George, all Christians are their own priests, meaning we have direct connection to God, without going through other men. Any catholic who chooses to read the non catholic Book of Hebrews will see this. Second, your "priests" , like every other human being were/are under a death sentence, and it is only through the Blood of Christ that they are saved. What they can "trace back" to means nothing. Your priests hold no sway over the Elect. The are NOT to be called Fathers, and they are NOT reverends, and your "priests" are not "Apostles". Your priests are sin soaked wretches like the rest of us who have no Biblical business dressing in gowns, standing behind pulpits, and having people bow down to them, and this includes the Pope.

You also said.........


"""St Polycarp, for example, was a disciple of John. Perhaps some day I will share Polycarps reminiscences about John that he related to St Irenaeus.""""

Save your effort George. I am saved, and I have a Bible that was inspired by God. I don't need Poly, or Irene to speak of John, because all that God wanted me to know about John was in the Bible. However, feel free to tell both poly, and Irene that you have a friend in Maryland who is also a saint :)

You said..............


"""This is all a part of church history and reading the church fathers has increased my faith."""

Jesus Christ is the Father of the Church Lord, not men. Jesus Christ increases Faith George, not the post Biblical ramblings of men.

You said............


"""This discussion is for the non Trinitarians in a spirit of love so that they might worship Him in all his fullness"""

The Elect of God are quite capable of worshipping God without your catholic doctrines George. The first, second, third, and fourth centurt Christians got along fine without it, and just because a pagan custom was stamped with catholic seal, means nothing as to its worth.

Shalom!

[Bill McNeal]

"stating that the Elect {The Believers} would not perish, while at the same time stating that the non Believers were ALREADY doomed. "

Change God's word to meet your doctrine. Now who is accusing whom of doing that? The above quote is out of John 3:16 and 3:18. The word ELECT does not appear in either of these verses. Just because someone ELECTS to insert the word does not make it fact and truth. In fact, it just makes it a man made doctrine, not a true and faithful to the scriptures doctrine.

Bill Lamb

Bill Lamb, do you even know who the Elect are???

Care to answer Bill?.........Are you one of the Elect Bill???????

Shalom!

[WildmanSC]

"The Elect of God are quite capable of worshipping God without your catholic doctrines George. The first, second, third, and fourth centurt Christians got along fine without it, and just because a pagan custom was stamped with catholic seal, means nothing as to its worth.

Shalom!"

Bill M,

Are you in your second, third or fourth life? If not, how do you know what doctrines the churches practiced in the 2nd, 3rd and 4the centuries? What is more important than what you think they practiced or understood is what the Bible says. Your blinders are preventing you from seeing the truth. Your lumping anybody who believes in the Triune Godhead as a Catholic is rather weak.

Bill

[Bill McNeal]

"The Elect of God are quite capable of worshipping God without your catholic doctrines George. The first, second, third, and fourth centurt Christians got along fine without it, and just because a pagan custom was stamped with catholic seal, means nothing as to its worth.

Shalom!"

Bill M,

Are you in your second, third or fourth life? If not, how do you know what doctrines the churches practiced in the 2nd, 3rd and 4the centuries? What is more important than what you think they practiced or understood is what the Bible says. Your blinders are preventing you from seeing the truth. Your lumping anybody who believes in the Triune Godhead as a Catholic is rather weak.

Bill

Bill, why did you not answer my question...........Who are the Elect Bill?........Are you among them?.........Curious minds want to know :)

[BLACK WOLF]

Vocab 101 ;)

The elect = people that are chosen based on an omnipotent, omnipresent, loving and sovereign God that knows the hearts of ALL men, women and children and the choice they will make before they exist here on earth.

The predestined = people that are chosen based on an omnipotent, omnipresent, loving and sovereign God that knows the hearts of ALL men, women and children and the choice they will make before they exist here on earth.

Christians = people who believe in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.

Believer - people who believe in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.

Salvation - the act of delivering from sin.

Choose - to select freely and after consideration.

Holy Trinity - the image of God. The unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three personages as one God. Mind, Body and Spirit

We as humans, can do NOTHING outside of what God has already ALLOWED us to do...therefore God has ALLOWED us and COMMANDS us to make a choice...a choice we can make. We wouldn't be able to make choices, if God did not first ALLOW it. It is ALWAYS God acting first and than us acting second.

We are made specifically in God's image.

Why do you think we have a mind, body and spirit? Why do you think it takes all 3 to complete, who we are?

Your bro,

Ray

[Esquire]

Tsoukalas,

Reading the church fathers has also strengthened my faith. Thank you for your recent postings. Among other things you said: "Perhaps some day I will share Polycarps reminiscences about John that he related to St Irenaeus. This is all a part of church history and reading the church fathers has increased my faith."

I'd like to hold you to that. I'd be very interested to hear from a man who walked with John!!

Thanks again,
Mike

[Bill McNeal]

Ray you said...........


"""The elect = people that are chosen based on an omnipotent, omnipresent, loving and sovereign God that knows the hearts of ALL men, women and children and the choice they will make before they exist here on earth."""

Ray, could you please provide Biblical Scripture that says the Elect will make a 'choice", or is this simply Rays VOCAB?????????

You said......

"""The predestined = people that are chosen based on an omnipotent, omnipresent, loving and sovereign God that knows the hearts of ALL men, women and children and the choice they will make before they exist here on earth."""

Again Ray, PLEASE provide actual Scripture that says Chosen people, make a "choice" . Actual Scripture Ray, not your opinion, or interpretation, but ACTUAL Scripture that says they choose, to be chosen.

You also said...........

"""Salvation - the act of delivering from sin."""

Ray, Biblical Salvation is delivering the Elect out of the second death, not from sin. While the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ enables us to confess our sins, and repent of them, it in no way frees the believer from sinning. Christ bore our sins, but He did not deliver us from them, by evidence of our sinning.

Again, being Saved means you are not going to Hell. You are saved from the Second death. Ray, I urge you to pray, and study with regards to the Biblical inference which calls Jesus the "Begotten", and the "First born of the dead"
An understanding of these inferences is paramount to grasping the Biblical gravity of Salvation.


You also said........

"""Holy Trinity - the image of God. The unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three personages as one God. Mind, Body and Spirit """

This is getting old, but once again, I will ask..........Please provide CLEAR Scripture that calls God "three persons". Let me help you Ray, you CAN'T. It's not there Ray, It don't exist, but it's clear that many can convince themselves that it is there.

You said..........

"""We as humans, can do NOTHING outside of what God has already ALLOWED us to do...therefore God has ALLOWED us and COMMANDS us to make a choice...a choice we can make"""

Ray, do you actually read what you write...... :sbrug: ...Seriously, you claim that we can do nothing outside of God, then turn around and claim that God then gives us a "choice" so we can??? Ray, I challenge you to provide one bit of Scripture in which God tells Christians that they were saved because they chose to be saved. Why is it so hard for you to submit to God, and give Him the credit for choosing you? Why must you claim that you chose Him Ray?

Anyway, your vocab 101, is based on mans opinion of what the Bible says, rather than what the Bible actually says.


Shalom!

[Bill McNeal]

Tsoukalas,

Reading the church fathers has also strengthened my faith. Thank you for your recent postings. Among other things you said: "Perhaps some day I will share Polycarps reminiscences about John that he related to St Irenaeus. This is all a part of church history and reading the church fathers has increased my faith."

I'd like to hold you to that. I'd be very interested to hear from a man who walked with John!!

Thanks again,
Mike

""""But all their works they do to be seen by men. They make their phylacteries broad and enlarge the borders of their garments. They love the best places at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues, greetings in the marketplaces, and to be called by men, "Rabbi, Rabbi.' But you, do not be called "Rabbi'; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren. Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. """"""

God is the Father of the Church

[BLACK WOLF]

Bill McNeal,

I've already gone over and over this with you and provided the scripture that I have made my references to.

The questions you ask of me aren't asked because you are seeking answers, you ask them to try and prove me wrong based on your belief and/or interpretation of the Bible.

Sorry...Homey, doesn't play like that anymore with people like you ;)

If someone here, who is truly seeking answers and isn't set in their beliefs as you are, I will gladly discuss it. It would be different, if you and I, hadn't already discussed these same issues over and over throughout the years.

I can agree to disagree...you seem unwilling to do that and instead want to force your belief onto anyone that disagrees with you. It is clear to me based on your personal attacks reguarding other people's beliefs that disagree with yours, when you do it over and over again concerning the same issues.

Your words and belief aren't going to change my mind, you should have realized that by now. Instead you should be praying for me as I do for you and learn when enough is enough.

Your bro,

Ray

[BLACK WOLF]

My worth, purpose or security isn't found on weither or not I can prove someone wrong, it is found in my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and His promise He made to me.

He :jesus: :youdaman: is worthy of my praise.

Your bro,

Ray

[Bill McNeal]

My worth, purpose or security isn't found on weither or not I can prove someone wrong, it is found in my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and His promise He made to me.

He :jesus: :youdaman: is worthy of my praise.

Your bro,

Ray

Sadly ray, nothing is further from the truth. If it were, there would have been no need for your "Vocab 101" post

[BLACK WOLF]

Bill,

Sorry you feel that way.

Vocab 101 wasn't for you. It was for those that are seeking answers.

Your bro,

Ray

[Bill McNeal]

Gods Sovereign Truth!.............


2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:


Matthew 24:24
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."""


Matthew 24:31
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Romans 8:33
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Mark 13:20
And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days

John 15:16
Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

John 15:19
If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you

Acts 9:15
But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:


1 Corinthians 1:27
But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

Ephesians 1:4
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:


2 Timothy 2:4
No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier


James 2:5
Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?


1 Peter 2:9
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

Revelation 17:14
These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful

Romans 11:7
What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded


Romans 9:16
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.


Romans 9:18
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.


Romans 9:23
And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,



Psalms 65:4
Blessed is the man You choose,
And cause to approach You,
That he may dwell in Your courts.
We shall be satisfied with the goodness of Your house,
Of Your holy temple.


Romans 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his

Romans 8:28-30
And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.



---------------

Alas, the Truth of Scripture!

[BLACK WOLF]

Bill,

Great post.... :amen: to that!

Your bro,

Ray

[Bill McNeal]

Bill,

Sorry you feel that way.

Vocab 101 wasn't for you. It was for those that are seeking answers.

Your bro,

Ray

Ray, the "answers" will not be found in your "vocab 101". Truth lies in the Holy Scriptures Ray. We all have seen Rays answers, why not back it up with Scripture Ray?

Not for me, but for the people who may be viewing this sight???

Shalom?

[Bill McNeal]

Bill,

Great post.... :amen: to that!

Your bro,

Ray

Thanks Ray.........Hey, what are your thoughts on this...........

2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

[Esquire]

""""But all their works they do to be seen by men. They make their phylacteries broad and enlarge the borders of their garments. They love the best places at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues, greetings in the marketplaces, and to be called by men, "Rabbi, Rabbi.' But you, do not be called "Rabbi'; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren. Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. """"""

God is the Father of the Church

Brother Bill,

You are lashing about a bit wildly, my friend. :) I assume you have inserted yourself into my exchange with George about the church fathers because you had a reason, but from the scripture you cited I'm danged if'n I figger the reason?

The testimony of those who have gone before provides me with encouragement. That is as it should be, for we are to encourage one another (Acts 15:32, Rom 12:8, Eph. 6:22, Col. 4:8, I Thess. 3:2, 4:11, 5:18, 5:14, II Thess. 2:17, II Tim. 4:2, Titus 1:9, 2:6, 2:15, Heb. 3:13, 2:25 - some of the ways we are to encourage each other!)

Anyway, just for fun, I posted the entire chapter you mysteriously cited to and highlighted the parts I found particularly instructive, in our present context! :)

By the way, chapter 23 is clearly not directed at the giants of the christian faith, the great saints who have gone before, the lovers of Christ and the Truth, who bore great affliction that the church universal, Christ's true church which does not know denominational boundaries, might be strengthened and grow!

And reading these men's stories? By golly it strengthens, inspires and ENCOURAGES me! http://tradtalk.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

MATTHEW 23 (KJV)
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _________

1Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,


2Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

3All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

4For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

5But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,

6And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,

7And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.

8But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

9And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

10Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

11But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.

12And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

13But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

14Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

15Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

16Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!

17Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?

18And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.

19Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?

20Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon.

21And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.

22And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.

23Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

24Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

25Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

26Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

27Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

28Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

29Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,

30And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.

31Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

32Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

33Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

34Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

35That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

36Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

38Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 39For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

[WildmanSC]

"Bill Lamb, do you even know who the Elect are???

Care to answer Bill?.........Are you one of the Elect Bill???????

Shalom!"

Bill McClean,

I know who you and your Calvinist/Electionist brethren think the Elect are. I know that I'm a born again child of my Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ, and that I am indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

Now, maybe you will answer the question I have asked a couple of times but you have failed to address.

Bill McClean, if you were to die right now as you read this post, do you know beyond a shadow of doubt you would go to Heaven? If your answer is yes, can you provide a scriptural basis for your answer.

Bill Lmab

[Bill McNeal]

Mike , you said..................


"""Brother Bill,

You are lashing about a bit wildly, my friend. I assume you have inserted yourself into my exchange with George about the church fathers because you had a reason, but from the scripture you cited I'm danged if'n I figger the reason? """""

VERSE 9, VERSE 9, read VERSE 9 Mike............. :)

[Bill McNeal]

Bill, why did you not answer my question...........Who are the Elect Bill?........Are you among them?.........Curious minds want to know :)

Shalom!

[Esquire]

Mike , you said..................


"""Brother Bill,

You are lashing about a bit wildly, my friend. I assume you have inserted yourself into my exchange with George about the church fathers because you had a reason, but from the scripture you cited I'm danged if'n I figger the reason? """""

VERSE 9, VERSE 9, read VERSE 9 Mike............. http://tradtalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif

Bill,

Has your common sense completely deserted you, manhttp://tradtalk.com/forums/images/icons/icon5.gif http://tradtalk.com/forums/images/icons/icon5.gif Lord have mercy, friend!

What do you call your daddy? Do you not realize that referring to those "saints that have gone before" as the "fathers" of our faith has NOTHING to do with this passage??? When I speak of Larry Norman as the Father of Christian Rock do you know that I don't mean to set him up in the place where my Father in heaven sits??

I'm not sure sure what makes you feel compelled to stomp on even innocuous conversation between others with out of context scripture but you ought to exercise a wee bit of self control!

Brother, I am concerned about you. I cannot imagine what it must be like live under such a load that you can't speak the word "father" without feeling like you have violated this scripture!

I hope you know that your heavenly Father loves you. He loves you. He will not harm you and He offers grace and a plan to prosper you. I think of the words of a Larry Norman song:

I didn't know you were my father,
I thought you were the hanging judge,
And when I came into your courtroom
I thought you'd hold a grudge.
I thought I was a lowly servant
I didn't know I was your son
And I didn't know you had forgiveness
For anything I might have done.

I love you more than I love this argument, Bill. I hope you know that God loves you too. I guess I'm going to let this thread go.

In Him,
Mike

[George Tsoukalas]

Bill, are you making any bows? I've made 2. I work slower in my old age. :) I will, Mike, because this quote in one of St Irenaus work is dynamite. It's a testimony from St Polycarp. I was wondering why this thread just seemed so choppy. It's because I just learned how to navigate within this site. I missed alot of it but did catch up by skimming for that I apologize. Bill, Christ is the head of the church. You know what he said to Peter "...upon this rock." (Mt 16:13-20) And yes I need the Church to guide me in my readings and interpretation of scripture. If Christ is the head isn't he guiding me. Our conception of the church is not the building but the church is the people guided by the bishop who has that unbroken line to one of the Apostles; with Christ as the head it must be perfect in its teachings. BTW when the books of the NT were chosen one of the criteria was that it had to be in some way attached or under the auspices of the Bible. Bill, way back you said I shouldn't base a whole lot on 1 scriptural reference in reference to Jn1:1. Hmm. I think you are basing too much one one too--Is 9:6. This verse is meant to show the one nature of the 3 persons. You should be looking to the NT to clarify it and not using it to explain the NT. BTW I am not Catholic. Do you want me to go into the theological differences? :) No, I didn't think so. May you all have a Happy and Joyful Easter. Jawge

[Bill McNeal]

Bill, are you making any bows? I've made 2. I work slower in my old age. :) I will, Mike, because this quote in one of St Irenaus work is dynamite. It's a testimony from St Polycarp. I was wondering why this thread just seemed so choppy. It's because I just learned how to navigate within this site. I missed alot of it but did catch up by skimming for that I apologize. Bill, Christ is the head of the church. You know what he said to Peter "...upon this rock." (Mt 16:13-20) And yes I need the Church to guide me in my readings and interpretation of scripture. If Christ is the head isn't he guiding me. Our conception of the church is not the building but the church is the people guided by the bishop who has that unbroken line to one of the Apostles; with Christ as the head it must be perfect in its teachings. BTW when the books of the NT were chosen one of the criteria was that it had to be in some way attached or under the auspices of the Bible. Bill, way back you said I shouldn't base a whole lot on 1 scriptural reference in reference to Jn1:1. Hmm. I think you are basing too much one one too--Is 9:6. This verse is meant to show the one nature of the 3 persons. You should be looking to the NT to clarify it and not using it to explain the NT. BTW I am not Catholic. Do you want me to go into the theological differences? :) No, I didn't think so. May you all have a Happy and Joyful Easter. Jawge

George, I have made some, but my hands suffer much with the MS.........Another day I will rebuke the teachings of the Catholic, and GO churches......I am getting ready to injest a little of the grape,and snuggle with the wife.............Salute my friend, I love you!

[George Tsoukalas]

Have been sent for you, Bill. Enough with the rebuking. Time to embrace. Love you too. Happy Easter. George

[BLACK WOLF]

Bill McNeal,

You said and asked - "We all have seen Rays answers, why not back it up with Scripture Ray?"

I have and I'll be glad to repeat them, but I'll let those who are truly seeking answers ask me.

You asked - "Hey, what are your thoughts on this...........2 Thessalonians 2:13 "But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:"

You already know where I stand on this, but I'll answer it with a couple of question that you don't have to answer.

This questions will be for those seeking the truth, because you already believe you know it.

Could a God that is ALL powerfull, ALL knowing and isn't bound by time or space, create life filled with choices that could be choosen freely within the boundries He has created?

Could a God, who is ALL powerfull, ALL knowing and isn't bound by time or space know the future of His creation and choose people based on the choice He ALLOWED them to make freely within the boundries He has created?

Look at the verse...it says "salvation through sanctification" first, and "belief of the truth" second. It is ALWAYS God first and us second. Jesus had to die on the cross first before we could be saved based on our belief of the truth.

To have a belief, you must first believe in something. To believe in something is an action. It is something that must be chosen. We aren't forced to believe one way or the other, but we are forced to at least make a choice.

A sovereign king is still in control of his people when he has set guidlines and laws for them to follow, because he has the power to reward or punish them based on their choices. If the king says, "If you break my laws and commandments their will be a price to pay, but if you believe in me as your savior and lord with all of your heart, I will forgive you."

Those are the words of a just, fair and loving king. Those are the same characteristics of the Holy King I know and love.

Your bro,

Ray

[WildmanSC]

Bill, why did you not answer my question...........Who are the Elect Bill?........Are you among them?.........Curious minds want to know :)

Shalom!

Bill McNeal,

You are the one who does not answer questions. I've answered your questions, but you ignore the answers. So, I'll endeavor one more time to give the Biblical answer.

The elect are believers saved by the grace of God: Eph 1:4-5, Rom 9:11, Rom 11:5

Believers were chosen "before the foundation of the world" in Christ Eph 1:4, to adoption Eph 1:5, good works Eph 2:10, and conformity to Christ Rom 8:29.

The elect are believers given by God the Father to Christ as the fruit of His death, all being foreknown and foreseen by God John 17:6 and Rom 8:29.

Christ's Death was sufficient for all men and is effective in the case of the believers, yet men are treated as responsible, being capable of the will and power to chose. Those who chose to reject, are unbelievers, are condemned and are not of the elect, also by the foreknowledge of God.

As a born again child of the Lord Jesus Christ, I am a believer and therefore a member of the elect as the result of the Omniscient God's foreknowledge.

Now you will have to define who the Elect are, it is not a word I find in the Bible. It is always lower case in my Bible, so I will leave it up to you define.

Bill McLean,

You have accused me of not answering your question(s). This is the second time I have addressed your question on the Elect. Now please address the questions I've asked of you three times and you have ignored.

Since you believe you are a member of the Elect, please tell us if you believe if you died right now that you would go to Heaven? And if you do, what is the Biblical basis for your belief?

Bill