Presbyterian Church?

[Matt]

Anybody go there or know their beleif system?

[Cato]

Matt,

You will get more from someone else. But in short, their beleif system is very similar to most protestant type churches. There are a couple of characteritics that seem to distinguish them. In baptism, they sprinkle rather than submerse. And I believe they do infant baptism. They also hold to the Calvanist view that has been discussed out here before. Generally, it has to do with the view that the "elelct" and the "chosen" are foreknown and appointed unto salvation, and that man has little or no choice in his slavation. Others, as you know, believe man is drawn by the Spirit, but can chose to accept or reject the invitation to eternal life.

That may not be exact, but its fairly close. Others will correct me if I'm wrong.

Cato

[Matt]

hmmm

Ok I was told that if a person wasn't Catholic then they were Protostant. I guess that wasn't true. So do only Baptist baptise by complete submersion then, and don't baptise infants?

[Rooselk]

Catholic may include Roman Catholicism or even Eastern Orthodox. In fact I've heard Lutherans who refer to themselves as evangelical Catholics. But there are many denominations that practice infant baptism, including protestant denominations like Presbyterians, Lutherans, Methodists, etc.

[Matt]

There's a lot of Baptists on this forum isn't there? What are your beleifs?

[Camp Cook]

Just as there are many differend baptist denominations, i.e. Southern Baptist, Freewill Baptist, AMerican Baptist & so on. Church of the Brethren, Dunkard Brethren, Grace Brethren, Ashland Brethren....the same is true of the Presbyterians.

Our daughter & son-in-law joined the Orthodox Presbyterian Church a few years ago. While they are Calvinist in theology, I would not say they are hyper-calvinist & do believe that we as individuals have a choice as to accept or reject Christ. While there are differences between some theology they now embrace & what they were taught (& what I believe) we chose to focus on where we agree rather then where we disagree. Biggest difference is a covenant theology as opposed to dispensationalism. Their service would be more liturgical as opposed to the much more contemporary worship. They are also quick to point out that they are not "mainline" presbyterian. WE have attend their church & the gospel is preached. They do "baptize" infants but are clear that the baptism has nothing to do with "salvation". It is much like what we do when we have a baby "dedication". I asked my son-in-law when their first child was "baptized" where he now stood in regard to "believer baptism". He is still working through it as I am sure he is with some other differences but for Lee & I, it is in God's hands.

[Esquire]

Matt,

I have a suggestion that might be helpful. If not, just ignore it.:)

There are many denominations within the Christian faith, and the distinctions mean something, and sometimes something important. However, it might be useful to begin with the basic elements that unite the various, and then branch out into what distinguishes them from there.

Just doing that can mean alot of theological homework. For example, I would be tempted to start with the Nicene creed. It does a pretty good job of laying out what christians must agree upon, and believe.

Once you have your head around those fundamentals, the differences between denominations are easier to grasp, as well as to place in perspective.

Whenever I get into a discussion where I do not see eye to eye with someone, I like to "back the truck up" so to speak, until I figure out where we do agree. Then you can evaluate the actual disagreement in context.

If you back the theological truck up to the 4th century AD, you find this statement of our faith that most christians today, regardless of denomination, would have a hard time disagreeing with.

Here is the creed: [Note that "catholic" in this creed means "universal" and has nothing to do with the catholic church].

The Nicene Creed

We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father.

Through him all things were made. For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man.

For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried. On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets.

We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come.

Amen.

[Camp Cook]

Right on the mark, Esquire

:shooting:

[Cueball]

Thats is it exactly. That is the truth according to the word of God. I just love reading something so clear and precise.


.................................................. ....Roby...............................

[Matt]

What's the dress code at a baptist church?

[Esquire]

Matt,

The Baptist churches I have attended were "come as you are!"

That's the only dress code I recognize in the house of the Lord!

Mike

[Matt]

I'm thinking about popping in one of these days. My wife proably wouldn't understand though. She doesn't understand my need to validate/investigate everything. She calls it doubt, I see it as always seeking truth, wherever it may be.

[Esquire]

Matt I wish you lived a little closer - I'd love to visit over a camp fire or something. Maybe as we cooked the elk I just tagged out on! :)

I'll keep you and your wife in my prayers, and if you ever make it down KY way, try to do it during hunting season! I'll see if I can't put you on a KY whitetail or two!

At the very least I can guarantee you some of the best flyfishing for stream smallies in central KY.

Mike

[Matt]

I bought a fly pole 3 years ago and I haven't even put it together yet. I got into trad archery around the same time. I got hooked on that and spent all my free time messing around with bows.

BTW I went through KY a few times when I was at Fortbragg. That's some of the most beutiful country I've seen. All those trees with the rolling hills and winding rivers. Real nice. I wish I could go there again too.

[BLACK WOLF]

Matt,

You said - "She calls it doubt, I see it as always seeking truth, wherever it may be."

That's AWESOME!

Ray ;)

[Esquire]

Good call, Black Wolf.

Matt,

Lodging and food are provided free if you all ever make it over here. I'll teach you how to wave that flyrod!

Mike

[Matt]

I think the church near my house holds services on Wednesdays and Sunday's. I'm not sure about that though.

[Esquire]

Matt,

Thay might have a website. You could try running a google search for their name and address.

[Cueball]

"Thats is it exactly. That is the truth according to the word of God. I just love reading something so clear and precise."
Quote by me.



That is from an earlier post of mine. I have become aware that my orginal post was not accurate of my own faith. I do not believe that the one church is The Roman Catholic church I believe there are christians in many different denominations and the one church is the church that Jesus will take as his bride. I also do not believe that baptism forgives sin only the shed blood of christ can do that. Baptism is an outward sign of a change heart and a public profession of that change.

..............................................Roby ............................

[larry]

Cueball, when the creed speaks of one church (catholic) it's not reffering to the romam catholic church. and the one baptism reffered to is not water baptism, but being baptized into Christ. hope this helps.

larry

[WildmanSC]

Cueball, when the creed speaks of one church (catholic) it's not reffering to the romam catholic church. and the one baptism reffered to is not water baptism, but being baptized into Christ. hope this helps.

larry

Larry,

What church was established on the basis of the Nicene Creed? What church subscribes to the Nicene Creed?

I would also be interested in knowing what the scriptural reference is for being baptized into Christ. And additionally, what form that baptism takes.

Bill

[WildmanSC]

The following is a bit of useful commentary on the Nicene Creed, posted on the internet by James E. Kiefer, asu/edu, which I take to mean Arizona State University.

THE NICENE CREED

The Nicene Creed is the most widely accepted and used brief
statements of the Christian Faith. In liturgical churches, it is
said every Sunday as part of the Liturgy. It is Common Ground to
East Orthodox, Roman Catholics, Anglicans, Lutherans, Calvinists,
and many other Christian groups. Many groups that do not have a
tradition of using it in their services nevertheless are committed
to the doctrines it teaches.

(Someone may ask, "What about the Apostles' Creed?" Traditionally,
in the West, the Apostles' Creed is used at Baptisms, and the Nicene
Creed at the Eucharist (aka the Mass, the Liturgy, the Lord's
Supper, or the Holy Communion). The East uses only the Nicene Creed.)

Bill

[larry]

well Bill, I may have to check up on my history !, as Esquire already said, "catholic" in the creed refers to the universal church. and I thought for sure that the baptism spoke of refered to the baptism into Christ, but I could have confused it with another creed, after all I'm not always the brightest apple in the bunch. now I'm going to have to dig through a bunch of my history books !! hmm this could take awhile......

larry

[WildmanSC]

well Bill, I may have to check up on my history !, as Esquire already said, "catholic" in the creed refers to the universal church. and I thought for sure that the baptism spoke of refered to the baptism into Christ, but I could have confused it with another creed, after all I'm not always the brightest apple in the bunch. now I'm going to have to dig through a bunch of my history books !! hmm this could take awhile......

larry

Larry,

Perchance catholic means universal, but the Roman Catholic Church was founded upon the Nicene Creed. Through the centuries there have been divisions with the Eastern Othodox Church breaking away, and then later the Protestant Churches, many of which to this day still subscribe to the Nicene Creed and use it and the Apostles Creed in their liturgy.

I've never attended a church that ascribes to, practices through liturgy or teaches the Nicene Creed, so I was somewhat taken aback when I saw it posted and saw so many people who I know to be fundamental Bible believing people saying in essence "Amen" or "that's right". The Baptist churches are not protestant churches and do not ascribe to the Nicene Creed. They do ascribe to the fundamental principles and doctrines of the Bible, many of which appear to be in agreement with the Nicene/Apostolic Creeds, however, upon closer evaluation of what the Bible actually says and what the two Creeds say, there are very real and fundamental differences. As for me and my house we'll serve the Lord (and in so doing stick with the Bible).

I can save you some time on the baptism question. Many, though I will not say all, who ascribe to the Nicene Creed actually apply it to two baptisms, water baptism and baptism of the Holy Spirit. Some even go so far as to say "The forgiveness of sins comes by believing that Christ bore your sins when He was baptized and by believing in Holy Spirit baptism."

I don't have a problem with believing in the two baptisms, but the scriptures makes it very clear that Christ bore the sins of humanity upon the cross of Calvary. You cannot be saved or born again except your sins have been forgiven. This forgiveness is received only through repentance for ones sins, through belief in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ and through the washing of regeneration by the shed blood of Jesus Christ.

Bill

[larry]

ok, how do you do that quote thing?

Bill, we don't teach the creeds at our church either, and I don't even know what "liturgy" means, and couldn't find it in the dictionary :) I adhere to "Scripture alone" myself, and understand that the creeds are just documents written by man and are never to be considered infallible.

If we take "catholic" to mean universal, which I'm still pretty convinced that is what they meant, although I certainly can see the confusion that the last sentence can bring, when I read that, Ro. 6 ; 1-11 immeadiatly came to mind. but I can see where others could interpet that statement differently, aside from those two questions, I see nothing wrong with the document, but like I said, I don't dig to deep into much writings other than God's Holy Word.



I thought the roman catholic church was founded upon the
Scriptures, and then added a whole bunch of stuff to them :)


larry.

[Cueball]

I don't think the creed is a bad thing. Someone just pointed out a couple things I overlooked at 11:00 pm one night when reading it. I don't believe baptism has anything to do with salvation. I think the Roman Catholic church is probally meant as universal but thats not what it says.

Larry, you thoughts toward concentrating on God's word is a wise one that we should all listen to. Nothing wrong with some outside reading but the meat of our literary diet should be God's word.



.................................................. ....Roby.......................................... .

[WildmanSC]

Larry,

I'm not exactly sure what liturgy means either. We read the Bible in our church, too.

From what I've read, my understanding is that liturgy stands for the formal reading, at times by individuals and at others by the congregation, of various portions of either the Apostles Creed or the Nicene Creed at specific points of the worship service. It is my understanding that the formal reading is a major part, if not the major part, of the worship service.

I prefer good old fashioned singing, the sharing of testimonies and preaching of the Word of God. Most people today, I would guess, are turned off by old fashioned, Holy Ghost directed, hellfire and brimstone preaching. It stirs my soul, lifts my spirit and when needed brings conviction to my heart!! :amen: :amen:

Bill

[Esquire]

The word creed comes, as I understand it, from the latin credo "I believe." A creed is a statement of what we believe.

The Nicene Creed was developed for a purpose (to combat the Arian heresy regarding the trinity). It is not scripture, and only has derivative authority - meaning it is not authoritative but derives any authority it might have from scripture alone.

In these days of confusion about Christianity, given all of the denominations, this creed has stood the test of time as a trustworthy summary of a number of fundamental truths about our faith.

Catholic means universal in this creed, no matter what the catholic church did with the creed later.

And the reference to one baptism is from Ephesians 4:5

"3Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. 4There is one body and one Spirit–just as you were called to one hope when you were called– 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all"
Whether your church does liturgy or not, whatever that means to you, the Nicene Creed (or statement of belief) is a pretty good summing up of the basics from almost any denominational perspective.

Again, it is not scripture, just a statement that is true to scripture and helpful to the extent that it clrifies certain issues and helps us to "keep the main thing the main thing."

Matt,

In case this will help you at all, I am going to post some scripture references that help support the various phrases found in the Nicene Creed. Look them up in the King James, and ask the Holy Spirit to show yoiu the truth. God bless you, brother,

Mike

I believe in (Romans 10: 8-10; 1 John 4: 15)
One God (Deuteronomy 6: 4, Ephesians 4: 6)
Father (Matthew 6: 9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6: 3)
Creator of heaven and earth, (Genesis 1: 1)
and of all things visible and invisible; (Colossians 1: 15-16) and in one Lord, Jesus Christ, (Acts 11: 17)
Son of God (Matthew 14: 33; 16: 16)
begotten (John 1: 18; 3: 16)
begotten of the Father before all ages; (John 1: 2)
Light of Light (Psalm 27: I; John 8: 12; Matthew 17: 2,5)
true God of true God, (John 17: 1-5)
of one essence with the Father, (John 10: 30)
through Whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1: 1-2)
Who for us and for our salvation (I Timothy 2: 4-5)
came down from the heavens ((John 6: 33,35)
and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, (Luke 1: 35)
and became man. (John 1: 14)
Crucified for us (Mark 15: 25; I Corinthians 15: 3)
under Pontius Pilate, (John 1: 14)
He suffered, (Mark 8: 31)
and was buried; (Luke 23: 53; I Corinthians 15: 4)
Rising on the third day according to the Scriptures, (Luke 24: 1; 1 Cor. 15: 4)
And ascending into the heavens, (Luke 24: 51; Acts 1: 10)
He is seated at the right hand of the Father; (Mark 16: 19; Acts 7: 55)
And coming again in glory (Matthew 24: 27)
to judge the living and dead, (Acts 10: 42; 2 I Timothy 4: 1)
His kingodom shall have no end; (2 Peter 1: 11)
And in the holy Spirit, (John 14: 26)
Lord (Acts 5: 3-4)
the Giver of life, (Genesis 1: 2)
Who proceeds from the Father, (John 15: 26)
Who together with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified, (Matthew 3: 16-17)
Who spoke through the prophets; (I Samuel 19: 20; Ezekiel 11: 5, 13)
In one, (Matthew 16: 18)
holy, (I Peter 2: 5, 9)
catholic (Mark 16: 15)
and apostolic Church; (Acts 2: 42; Ephesians 2: 19-22)
I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; (Ephesians 4: 5)
I expect the resurrection of the dead; (John 11: 24; I Cor. 15: 12-49)
And the life of the age to come. (Mark 10: 29-30)
Amen. (Psalm 106:48)

[Cueball]

"I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; (Ephesians 4: 5)"

Ephesians 4: 5 " one Lord, one faith, one baptism, "

Not to argue but I don't see anywhere in Ephesians 4: 5 where it says baptism for the remission of sins.

My point is that is a minor difference but in reality it is a huge difference.

The foundation of my faith is that Jesus death on the cross was all that was needed for the atonement of sins. By adding that baptism is for the remission of sins it becomes a unbiblical statement. Unless it can be documented in other text from the bible which I believe it can not.


.................................................. .....Roby.................................

[Esquire]

Hey Roby,

I agree with you that Baptism, as I understand it, has nothing to do with remission of sins. It is Christs blood that takes care of ALL sin. I have to plead a certain amount of ignorance on exactly what was meant by the phrase in question.

Baptism is an outward sign of an inward submission, as I understand it. I have a funny story to tell you sometime about baptism and a Mississippi good old boy. But that is better told over a campfire.

If it helps at all, it seems to me that the Nicene phrasing was never intended to mean that the Baptism actually effects, or causes to happen, the "remission of sins".

I think the idea was to state that it was not necessary to get baptized more than once, rather than to imply that without a water dunking you were not truly saved. But it's been awhile since I studied church history.

Mike

[Cueball]

Mike, I think overall the creed is extremely close to what most christians would confess but the part about the one chuch and one baptism don't read as you describe them. You know I believe you but the problem is that if it states one thing clearly and yet it has to be defined another way to be acceptable in comparison to scripture.

"We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins."

It is odd to me if they meant the Univeral Church why they didn't use that term. Also if they didn't believe baptism was for the forgiveness of sin then why did they write it that way.

I would love to share a campfire with you Mike to here the MS baptisism story.

I saw a preacher at my old church one day hold this young man under a long time much longer than normal. Upon letting him back up for air the preacher said I know what your thinking but this young man said he wanted to make sure it took. Funny, but it gave the same impression that something else was needed to get this young man's salvation in order.


.................................................. .......Roby....................................

[BLACK WOLF]

What if no one chose to believe in Jesus as their Lord and Savior...would those people, who had the capability to believe or not, be saved?

I don't believe so.

So what else is needed in order for some of us to be saved?

It is the choice to act upon a calling, which is God's call to believe in Jesus as our Lord and Savior.

It was God, who first made it possible to be saved, and it is our resposibilty to make the choice.

Agape,

Ray ;)

[Esquire]

Hey Cue,

Universal is the straight-up dictionary definition of catholic, which is an adjective. In the day that this was written, the word could not have really meant anything else. The Apostolic part means that the universal church (which includes all true believers) was founded by the efforts of the Apostles, acting upon the great commission.

__________________________________________________ ______________________________

cath·o·lic adj.

Of broad or liberal scope; comprehensive: “The 100-odd pages of formulas and constants are surely the most catholic to be found” (Scientific American).
Including or concerning all humankind; universal: “what was of catholic rather than national interest” (J.A. Froude).
[Middle English catholik, universally accepted, from Old French catholique, from Latin catholicus, universal, from Greek katholikos, from katholou, in general : kat-, kata-, down, along, according to; see cata- + holou(from neuter genitive of holos, whole. See sol- in Indo-European Roots).]

__________________________________________________ ______________________________

As far as the Baptism goes, I'm guessing that the choice of phrase may be tied to a passage like Luke 3:2-3:

"during the high priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas, the word of God came to John son of Zechariah in the desert. 3 He went into all the country around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins"

and perhaps also a passage like Romans 6:3-4?

"3 Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. "

Lastly, I would look at I Peter 3:20-23, which describes this "baptism that saves" which is only symbolized by the water baptism.

"In [Noah's ark] only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also–not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand–with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him."

I think that some of these words have picked up some baggage for us that did not exist when the Creed was developed. So it is important that we understand the biblical basis for these words in the Creed. Because if they have no biblical basis they would have no importance at all!

Hope this helps.

Mike

[Esquire]

BTW Cue,

Thanks for making me research the baptism. Your questions about the Creed forced me to dig around in my bible, which is always a good thing :) .

Mike

[WildmanSC]

I have been the member of one local Independent Fundamental Baptist Church for about 28 years. I know only what our Declaration of Faith is. Due to my advancing age and declining memory I cannot remember the Declaration of Faith, or if I was ever shown one, of the other Baptist Churches of which I have been a member over the past 36 years.

The Declaration of Faith of Northside Baptist Church of North Charleston, SC:

1. We believe that the Scriptures of the Old and the New Testaments are plenarily and verbally-inspired by God with any admixture of error in truth; that the Bibleis reliable in science, histroy and every other matter it discusses; and that the Bible is the supremeand final authority in all matters of faith and practice. II Timothy 3:16-17; II Peter 1:19-21.

2. We believe in one Triune God, eternally existing in three Persons - Father, Son and Holy Spirit - co-eternal in being, co-identical in nature, co-equal in power and glory, and having the same attributes and perfections. Exodus 20:2-3; I John 5:7; Matthew 28:19-20; II Corinthians 13:14; I Corinthians 8:6.

3. We believe that God the Father is perfect in holiness, ininite in wisdom, and measureless in power; that He concerns Himself mercifully in the affairs of men; that He hears and answers prayer; and that He saves from Hell all who come to Him through Jesus Christ. Psalmm 22:3; John 17:11; Psalm 147:5; I John 3:3; Matthew 19:26; John 3:16; Matthew 6:26, 28:30; Psalm 65:2; Hebrews 11:6; Romans 5:8; I timothy 2:5; John 14:6.

Bill

To Be Continued....

[WildmanSC]

The Declaration of Faith of Northside Baptist Church of North Charleston, SC:

4. We believe in the absolute Diety of the Lord Jesus Christ; His eternal existence as God, co-equal with the Father and the Holy Spirit; His incarnation by means of the virgin birth; His sinlessness; His vicarious death through the shedding of His blood as an atonement for the remission of our sins; His literal, bodily resurrection from the dead; His ascension; His present high-priestly ministry in Heaven for believers; and His personal, visible return to earth. I John 5:20; John 1:18; John 14:9; Hebrews 1:8; Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:18-25; Luke 1:26-35; I Peter 2:22; Romans 3:25; Hebrews 9:14; Luke 24:36-43; Acts 10:40-41; Acts 1:9; Luke 24:51; Hebrews 8:1-2; I john 2:1; Acts 1:11; I Thessalonians 4:16.

5. We believe that the Holy Spirit is a Divine Person, equal with the Father and Son and of the same nature; that He convicts the world of sin, righteousness and judgement; that he bears witness to the Truth; that He is the Agent of the New Birht; that He baptizes all true believers into the body of Christ, indwelling and sanctifying all of them, sealing and thus securing them unto the day of redemtion; that He endues, guides, teaches, and helps believers; and that it is the privilege and duty of all the saved to be filled with the Spirit, the evidence being soul-winning power. Matthew 28:19; I Corinthians 12:12-14; Acts 5:3-4; John 16:7-15.

6. We believe the Godhead created the heavens (the universe) and the earth, including all life, each after its own species, by direct act and not by a process of evolution. Genesis 1 and 2; Colossians 1:16-17; John 2:3.

Bill

To be continued...

[Camp Cook]

As I said my daughter & Son-in-law are members of on Orthodox Presbyterian church & they do recite the Nicene Creed. I was taken back, much like others here :) , when I first heard it & the phrase that is bothering everyone bothered me as well. My son-in-law explained it much the way you have Esquire (you've done well :highfive: ).

The following is from my church.

THE STATEMENT OF FAITH
of the Fellowship of Grace Brethren Churches

The members of the Fellowship of Grace Brethren Churches, in harmony with our historic position, believing the Bible, the whole Bible, and nothing but the Bible to be our infallible rule of faith and practice, and feeling our responsibility to make known the divine message of the Bible, present the following articles as a statement of those basic truths taught in the Bible which are common to our Christian faith and practice:

The Bible
The Word of God, the sixty-six books of the Old and New Testaments, verbally inspired in all parts, and therefore wholly without error as originally given of God (II Tim 3:16; II Peter 1:21).

God
The One True God Existing eternally as three persons--the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit (Luke 3:22; Matt. 28:19; II Cor. 13:14).

The Lord Jesus Christ
His preexistence and deity (John 1:1-13), incarnation by virgin birth (John 1:14; Matt. 1:18-23); sinless life (Heb. 4:15), substitutionary death (II Cor. 5:21), bodily resurrection (Luke 24:36-43), ascension into heaven and present ministry (Heb. 4:14-16), and coming again (Acts 1:11).

The Holy Spirit
His personality (John 16:7-15); and deity (Acts 5:3-4); and His work in each believer: baptism and indwelling at the moment of regeneration (I Cor. 12:13; Rom. 8:9); and filling (Eph. 5:18) to empower for Christian life and service (Eph. 3:16; Acts 1:8; Gal. 5:22-23).

Man
His direct creation in the image of God (Gen. 1:26-28), his subsequent fall into sin resulting in spiritual death (Gen. 3:1-24, Rom. 5:12), and the necessity of the new birth for his salvation (John 3:3-5).

Salvation
A complete and eternal salvation by God's grace alone, received as the gift of God through personal faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and his finished work (Eph. 2:8-9; Titus 3:5-7; I Peter 1:18-19).

The Church
One true Church, the body and the bride of Christ (Eph. 1:22-23; 5:25-32), composed of all true believers of the present age (I Cor. 12:12-13); and the organization of its members in local churches for worship, for edification of believers, and for world-wide gospel witness, each local church being autonomous but cooperating in fellowship and work (Eph. 4:11-16).

The Christian Life
A life of righteousness, good works and separation unto God from the evil ways of the world (Rom 12:1- 2), manifested by speaking the truth (James 5:12), maintaining the sanctity of the home (Eph. 5:22-6:4) settling differences between Christians in accordance with the Word of God (I Cor. 6:1-8), not engaging in carnal strife but showing a Christ-like attitude toward all men (Rom. 12:7-21), exhibiting the fruit of the Spirit (Gal. 5:22-23), and maintaining a life of prayer (Eph. 6:18; Phil. 4:6), including the privilege, when sick, of calling for the elders of the church to pray and to anoint with oil in the name of the Lord (James 5:13-18).

Ordinances
The Christian should observe the ordinances of our Lord Jesus Christ, which are:
(1) baptism of believers by triune immersion (Matt. 28:19), and
(2) the threefold communion service, consisting of the washing of the saint's feet (John 13:1-17), the Lord's Supper (I Cor. 11:20-22, 33-34; Jude 12), and the communion of the bread and the cup (I Cor. 11:23-26).

Satan
His existence and personality as the great adversary of God and his people (Rev. 12:1-10), his judgment (John 12:31), and final doom (Revelation).

Second Coming
The personal, visible and imminent return of Christ to remove His Church from the earth (I Thess. 4:16- 17), before the Tribulation (I Thess. 1:10; Rev. 3:10), and afterward to descend with the Church to establish His millennial kingdom upon the earth (Rev. 19:11-20:6).

Future Life
The conscious existence of the dead (Phil. 1:21-23; Luke 16:19-31), the resurrection of the body (John 5:28-29), the judgment and reward of believers (Rom. 14:10-12; II Cor. 5:10), the judgment and condemnation of unbelievers (Rev. 20:11-15), the eternal life of the saved (John 3:16), and the eternal punishment of the lost (Matt. 25:46; Rev. 20:15).


That pretty much sums it up :amen:

[WildmanSC]

The Declaration of Faith of Northside Baptist Church of North Charleston, SC:

7. We believe that man, in the person of the First Adam, was created in the image of God in innocence under the law of his Maker; that by reason of his voluntary sin he fell from his innocent state; that as a result the whole race plunged into condemnation and death, so that now all human beings are born with a sinful nature; and that all who reach the age of moral understanding become willful sinners in thought, word and deed, and so are without excuse before God. Genesis 1:26-27; Romans 5:10-19; Psalm 51:5; Romans 1:18-32; Romans 3:10-23.

8. We believe that the salvation of sinners is whooy of grace through faith in the blood sacrifice, death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ; that all who receive Him are regenerated by the Holy Spirit and become children of God; that no rite, ceremony, or work can avail for the sinner's salvation; that Christ is the only and all-sufficient Saviour; and that all who are truly saved are kept forever by the sacrificial and high-priestly work of Jesus. Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5-7; John 5:24; John 1:12; Romans 10:9-13; Acts 16:31; Acts 4:12; II Timothy 1:12; John 10:28-29; Romans 8:35-39; Philippians 1:6; Philemon 18 & 19; Hebrews 6:20; Hebrews 8:3-5; Hebrews 9:14-15; Hebrews 10:10.

9. We believe that the blessings of salvation are made free to all by the Gospel; that it is the immediate duty of all to accept them by a cordial, penitent, and ebodient faith; and that nothing prevents the salvation of the greatest sinner on earth but his personal rejection of the Gospel, which rejection involves him in an aggravated condemnation. John 3:16-21; I Timothy 1:15; Hebrews 7:25;Revelation 22:17; Ezekiel 33:11; John 5:40; II Peter 3:9; I Timothy 2:3-4.

I will finish the balance of an additional 14 statements in our Declaration of Faith later this afternoon or tonight.

Bill

To be continued...

[WildmanSC]

As I said my daughter & Son-in-law are members of on Orthodox Presbyterian church & they do recite the Nicene Creed. I was taken back, much like others here :) , when I first heard it & the phrase that is bothering everyone bothered me as well. My son-in-law explained it much the way you have Esquire (you've done well :highfive: ).

The following is from my church.

THE STATEMENT OF FAITH
of the Fellowship of Grace Brethren Churches

The members of the Fellowship of Grace Brethren Churches, in harmony with our historic position, believing the Bible, the whole Bible, and nothing but the Bible to be our infallible rule of faith and practice, and feeling our responsibility to make known the divine message of the Bible, present the following articles as a statement of those basic truths taught in the Bible which are common to our Christian faith and practice:

The Bible
The Word of God, the sixty-six books of the Old and New Testaments, verbally inspired in all parts, and therefore wholly without error as originally given of God (II Tim 3:16; II Peter 1:21).

God
The One True God Existing eternally as three persons--the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit (Luke 3:22; Matt. 28:19; II Cor. 13:14).

The Lord Jesus Christ
His preexistence and deity (John 1:1-13), incarnation by virgin birth (John 1:14; Matt. 1:18-23); sinless life (Heb. 4:15), substitutionary death (II Cor. 5:21), bodily resurrection (Luke 24:36-43), ascension into heaven and present ministry (Heb. 4:14-16), and coming again (Acts 1:11).

The Holy Spirit
His personality (John 16:7-15); and deity (Acts 5:3-4); and His work in each believer: baptism and indwelling at the moment of regeneration (I Cor. 12:13; Rom. 8:9); and filling (Eph. 5:18) to empower for Christian life and service (Eph. 3:16; Acts 1:8; Gal. 5:22-23).

Man
His direct creation in the image of God (Gen. 1:26-28), his subsequent fall into sin resulting in spiritual death (Gen. 3:1-24, Rom. 5:12), and the necessity of the new birth for his salvation (John 3:3-5).

Salvation
A complete and eternal salvation by God's grace alone, received as the gift of God through personal faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and his finished work (Eph. 2:8-9; Titus 3:5-7; I Peter 1:18-19).

The Church
One true Church, the body and the bride of Christ (Eph. 1:22-23; 5:25-32), composed of all true believers of the present age (I Cor. 12:12-13); and the organization of its members in local churches for worship, for edification of believers, and for world-wide gospel witness, each local church being autonomous but cooperating in fellowship and work (Eph. 4:11-16).

The Christian Life
A life of righteousness, good works and separation unto God from the evil ways of the world (Rom 12:1- 2), manifested by speaking the truth (James 5:12), maintaining the sanctity of the home (Eph. 5:22-6:4) settling differences between Christians in accordance with the Word of God (I Cor. 6:1-8), not engaging in carnal strife but showing a Christ-like attitude toward all men (Rom. 12:7-21), exhibiting the fruit of the Spirit (Gal. 5:22-23), and maintaining a life of prayer (Eph. 6:18; Phil. 4:6), including the privilege, when sick, of calling for the elders of the church to pray and to anoint with oil in the name of the Lord (James 5:13-18).

Ordinances
The Christian should observe the ordinances of our Lord Jesus Christ, which are:
(1) baptism of believers by triune immersion (Matt. 28:19), and
(2) the threefold communion service, consisting of the washing of the saint's feet (John 13:1-17), the Lord's Supper (I Cor. 11:20-22, 33-34; Jude 12), and the communion of the bread and the cup (I Cor. 11:23-26).

Satan
His existence and personality as the great adversary of God and his people (Rev. 12:1-10), his judgment (John 12:31), and final doom (Revelation).

Second Coming
The personal, visible and imminent return of Christ to remove His Church from the earth (I Thess. 4:16- 17), before the Tribulation (I Thess. 1:10; Rev. 3:10), and afterward to descend with the Church to establish His millennial kingdom upon the earth (Rev. 19:11-20:6).

Future Life
The conscious existence of the dead (Phil. 1:21-23; Luke 16:19-31), the resurrection of the body (John 5:28-29), the judgment and reward of believers (Rom. 14:10-12; II Cor. 5:10), the judgment and condemnation of unbelievers (Rev. 20:11-15), the eternal life of the saved (John 3:16), and the eternal punishment of the lost (Matt. 25:46; Rev. 20:15).


That pretty much sums it up :amen:

"Second Coming
The personal, visible and imminent return of Christ to remove His Church from the earth (I Thess. 4:16- 17), before the Tribulation (I Thess. 1:10; Rev. 3:10), and afterward to descend with the Church to establish His millennial kingdom upon the earth (Rev. 19:11-20:6)."

Joy,

While there are some elements that I do not necessarily agree with, this one is the one that I see to be unscriptural. Christ's Second Coming will actually be when He returns to the earth with His Church for His millenial reign. What is discribed in your statement is actually His meeting the Bride, the Church, in the air, the Rapture of the Church, as you will. The trump will sound, the dead, the saved, born again dead, will rise first and then in an instant the living believers will rise up to meet Him in the air.

Those who are left behind, the unbelievers, will not see Him at all. They will be decieved and made to believe that the believers have gone somewhere other than UP!!

Bill

[Cueball]

That makes more sense after reading the versus you found. The baptism into the death of christ makes it clear to me.



.................................................. ..........Roby.................................... ...............

[Camp Cook]

"Second Coming
The personal, visible and imminent return of Christ to remove His Church from the earth (I Thess. 4:16- 17), before the Tribulation (I Thess. 1:10; Rev. 3:10), and afterward to descend with the Church to establish His millennial kingdom upon the earth (Rev. 19:11-20:6)."


Bill:

Not sure what your problem is with this. Perhaps it would be better titled "End times"

The first part does refer to the Rapture - PRE-trib as opposed to Mid-trib or Post-trib.

The second part "and afterward" refers to Christ actually ON the earth (after the Tribulation period & the defeat of the AntiChrist) with the Church for the millennial kingdom.

I think we are saying the same thing. :)

[WildmanSC]

"Second Coming
The personal, visible and imminent return of Christ to remove His Church from the earth (I Thess. 4:16- 17), before the Tribulation (I Thess. 1:10; Rev. 3:10), and afterward to descend with the Church to establish His millennial kingdom upon the earth (Rev. 19:11-20:6)."


Bill:

Not sure what your problem is with this. Perhaps it would be better titled "End times"

The first part does refer to the Rapture - PRE-trib as opposed to Mid-trib or Post-trib.

The second part "and afterward" refers to Christ actually ON the earth (after the Tribulation period & the defeat of the AntiChrist) with the Church for the millennial kingdom.

I think we are saying the same thing. :)

Joy,

My only problem is actually reading and thinking about what I'm reading before I start typing. In actuality though, it is my belief that Christ will be visible only to the Bride, or the Church, when he returns to meet us in the air.

At His Second Coming to earth, with the Church along with Him, ALL will see Him and there will be many, many people, including the Anit-Christ, that will regret His return and their rejection of Him.

Bill

[WildmanSC]

"Universal is the straight-up dictionary definition of catholic, which is an adjective. In the day that this was written, the word could not have really meant anything else."

If you dig a little bit deeper into what the dictionary, Websters New World Dictionary Third College Edition, catholic means a bit more than universal. The following is directly out of the dictionary:

catholic adj. universal, general (orthodox, Catholic) 1. of general scope or value; all-inclusive; universal 2. broad in sympathies, tastes, or understanding; liberal 3. (often Catholic) of the Christian church as a whole; specif., of the ancient, undivided Christian church 4. (Catholic) of the Christian church headed by the pope; Roman Catholic 5. (Catholic) of any of the orthodox Christian churches, including the Roman, Greek Orthodox, Anglo-Catholic, etc., as distinguished from the Reformed or Protestant churches - n 1. (often Catholic) a member of the universal Christian church 2. (Catholic) a member of any of the Catholic churches; esp., a Roman Catholic

What we actually see, is that although there are uses of the term catholic that can mean universal, general, they in fact relate to orthodox Catholic. And of the three definitions given for the verb one is "often" Catholic and two are specifically Catholic. And of the two definitions given for the noun form of the word, one is "often" Catholic and the other is specifically Catholic.

The liturgical churches who ascribe to the Nicene and Apostles Creeds have their very roots from the Roman Catholic Church. The Creeds are basic Catholic doctrine and are not recognized by churches not steming from the roots of the Catholic church. Rather, they look to the Holy Bible for their doctrine.

Bill

[Cueball]

Man, I am learning on this one. Bill thanks for the deeper look at Catholic per the definition. I am comfortable with the baptism as long as it mean baptism in to the death of christ which is what pays the price for sin. But still struggle with the one Catholic church as I am sure there were more than one denomination at the time of writing the creed which would mean there were options and the word Catholic does narrow it down quite a bit.

................................................Ro by..................................

[WildmanSC]

Roby,

Actually, what we must keep in mind is before Martin Luther, actually a Catholic himself, lead the revolt that resulted in the various liturgical Protestant Churches breaking away from the Catholic Church, the Roman Catholic Church was THE universal church. It dominated in religious and in governmental circles, especially in Europe. Government leaders tread lightly around the Pope. If they did something he didn't like, he would excommunicate them from the church and they would lose their political power and their salvation, according to the RCC. The RCC that stemmed from the Nicene Creed, was a very dominating and domineering church that if you really look at their doctrine is based on traditions of man, i.e., Popes and other RCC leaders, and not from the Holy Bible.

Bill

[Esquire]

Hey Wildman,

I am not a defender of Catholicism. I know you have some issues with the Catholic church. Some I perhaps share. I was just stating why the creeds were written, and that, properly understood, they are a good summary of the biblical position held by most Christians.

Forget the liturgy, forget the baggage, and all of that. Yes, the dictionary also defines Catholic in terms of that church. But that is not what was meant when it was written. I also do not suggest the Nicene creed to suggest that anyone adopt it as their own liturgy.

Cueball,

The Nicene creed was adopted for the specific purpose of articulating some basic, biblical, articles of belief in the face of attacks on christianity by a heretic named Arius.

This creed is not used by all churches - but the words it contains are a restatement of biblical truth, and a good starting place for any non-believer.

Mike

[WildmanSC]

Hey Wildman,

I am not a defender of Catholicism. I know you have some issues with the Catholic church. Some I perhaps share. I was just stating why the creeds were written, and that, properly understood, they are a good summary of the biblical position held by most Christians.

Forget the liturgy, forget the baggage, and all of that. Yes, the dictionary also defines Catholic in terms of that church. But that is not what was meant when it was written. I also do not suggest the Nicene creed to suggest that anyone adopt it as their own liturgy.

Cueball,

The Nicene creed was adopted for the specific purpose of articulating some basic, biblical, articles of belief in the face of attacks on christianity by a heretic named Arius.

This creed is not used by all churches - but the words it contains are a restatement of biblical truth, and a good starting place for any non-believer.

Mike

Mike,

It would possibly be a bit easier to forget the liturgy, if it were not for the fact that the very churches who use the Nicene and Apostles Creeds in their liturgy were not the Catholic churches themselves. I don't believe it is entirely accurate to say the "words it contains are a restatement of biblical truth, and a good starting place for any non-believer."

If you want the biblical truths, the place to start is the Holy Bible not some creed(s) laid down by man. The development of the Creeds was driven by politicians. The development, or writing, of the Holy Bible was driven by Almighty God through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

In fact, the Nicene Creed falls well short of what most would define as the fundamentals of the faith and the fundamental doctrines of the Bible. With that being said, they would not choose to use it as the starting point to try to find the true biblical doctrines. The fact that the Roman Catholic Church, the Anglican Church, the Lutheran Church, the Episcopalian Church and the Presbyterian Church (USA) choose to use the Creed(s) in their liturgy hardly qualifies as most Christians believing in the Creed(s).

The following are a couple of links that provide some rather interesting reading on the Creed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicene_Creed

http://www.kencollins.com/why-07.htm

http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/nicene.htm

http://www.angelfire.com/ny4/djw/lutherantheology.filioque.html

http://www.creeds.net/

Bill

[Esquire]

Bill,

I'm not sure what your actual objection to the creed is, other than the fact that some churches that you don't see eye to eye with recite in during their services.

It's just a convenience thing. I am not saying most christians "believe in the creed." I am saying that for those Christians who believe in the bible, the creed expresses certain biblical truths in a clear concise way, focusing on the several fundamentals, that are pretty hard to disagree with, for any christian denomination. This was my earlier quote:

"If you back the theological truck up to the 4th century AD, you find this statement of our faith that most christians today, regardless of denomination, would have a hard time disagreeing with."

Other than the misunderstanding over the use of the word catholic for universal, what specifically do you have trouble agreeing with in the creed? Let's talk it out.

Remember, I'm not asking what trouble you may have with any denomination who uses the creed regularly in their service - I'm asking what trouble you may have with the actual text of the creed?

Mike

[WildmanSC]

Mike

The first place I have problems with the Nicene Creed us "We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins." Baptism us not a requirement for the forgiveness of sins, and therefore, salvation. The Holy Spirit baptizes the believer into Jesus Christ, but the believer is saved by grace through faith (Eph 2:8-9). The forgiveness of sins is through the shed blood of Jesus Christ and by His amazing grace (Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;).

A second area I have a problem with the Creed is the reference to "Virgin Mary". Nowhere in the Holy Bible is she referred to as "Virgin Mary". That is clearly a Catholic, as opposed to catholic, reference. The Nicene Creed has been modified numerous times since the initial Creed was developed. One version I've found does not make reference to Mary, or Christ's virgin birth, it merely states He was "begotten". For sure, to be completely accurate, His virgin birth must be referenced, but it is important only to the RCC that the Virgin Mary be referenced.

The Creed was developed, supposedly, to validate the Trinity. However, it reaches a bit further than that. In so doing, it introduces error of man that is not scripturally faithful.

Bill



Salvation of sinners is wholly of grace through faith in the blood sacrifice, death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.

[Esquire]

Bill,

I see what you're saying. Here's my thinking on these two issues. I don't know if you had a chance to review my post to Cueball on the Baptism issue. When these threads get so long it gets hard to read through all the posts.

I agree with you that a symbolic water baptism is not required for salvation, but I would suggest that the one Baptism spoken of in the Creed is the same as the biblical "baptism that saves you" and the same as the biblical "baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins."

Of course, as I think you are pointing out, getting wet is irrelevant as far as salvation is concerned.

Here's what I said in my previous post - I don't know, maybe it will help.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____

As far as the Baptism goes, I'm guessing that the choice of phrase may be tied to a passage like Luke 3:2-3:

"during the high priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas, the word of God came to John son of Zechariah in the desert. 3 He went into all the country around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins"

and perhaps also a passage like Romans 6:3-4?

"3 Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. "

Lastly, I would look at I Peter 3:20-23, which describes this "baptism that saves" which is only symbolized by the water baptism.

"In [Noah's ark] only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also–not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand–with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him."

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____

As far as the fact that Mary was a Virgin; that fact is critical to our understanding of the fact that Jesus, (who was fully man as well as fully God), was not subject to original sin and of course, lived a sinless life.

As to why the Nicene Creed uses that language in particular, I would look to the first Ch. of Luke, posted here in the KJV:

"[i]26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,

27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.

28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.

30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.

31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?

35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. "

Does this help?

[WildmanSC]

Mike,

I'm going to address the two points in inverse order. I acknowledge that Jesus Christ was born of a virgin, and that the virgin's name was Mary. It was essential for him to be born of a female so He could take on the form of man, and it was essential that He be born of a virgin so that He would be born without sin and still maintain His Godship. Mike, we are all familiar with the Christmas story. I would hardly try to deny Jesus was born of a virgin. He HAD to be in order to fulfill the prophesies of the Old Testament.

The point I'm making is the Bible does not refer to her as the Virgin Mary, nor does the Bible say she was sinless which the RCC holds as a key doctrine in their belief system, and the RCC referring to her as the Virgin Mary is giving her equal status with God and Jesus Christ. The Bible commands us to pray in the name of Jesus Christ. I don't know that they always pray in the name of the Virgin Mary, or to the Virgin Mary, but if they do it once, and I know they do it often, it is one time too many, it is not scriptural.

As far as baptism goes, any reference in the Creed to baptism and forgiveness of sins is just outright a distortion of the biblical truth, I don't care when it was written. We should look to Jesus Christ, not John the Baptist, to get a clear understanding of the baptism that is related to the salvation process. John the Baptist's baptism for the remission of sins was preached to the Jews and was him preaching as a forerunner of the coming Messiah, Jesus Christ. And John the Baptist knew the Messiah was coming, as he said "There is one coming whose shoe I am not worthy to latchet." John the Baptist's "baptism for the remission of sins" is not applicable to the Church.

In the Gospel of John chapter 3, Jesus holds the following conversation:

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

It is the baptism of the Holy Spirit that brings life to the repentant sinners dead spirit and makes him/her born again. After the sinner repents of his/her sin, confesses with his/her mouth that they believe in the death, burail and resurrection of Jesus, and asks Him to come into his/her life as personal Saviour, the Holy Spirit will come upon him/her and baptize him/her into Christ. The water baptism that will follow some period afterwards is in response to the command of the Holy Bible, and pictures the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and pictures as well the baptism of the Holy Spirit as the newly repentant believer is immersed by the Holy Spirit, buried into Christ, and the dead spirit within raised to newness of life. I probably should also make it clear than the born of water to which Jesus referred is not water baptizm, but rather our first birth when we was issued forth from our mother's womb and there was a breaking of water.

Although the differences between what the Creed says and what the Scriptures say may appear to be "minute", they are very critical to the scriptural accuracy of our faith.

Bill

[Esquire]

Bill,

I honestly think that we are on the same page.

I agree with you that the RCC's doctrine on the "sinlessness" of Mary is unscriptural, as are prayers to the saints and to Mary. The Bible is pretty clear that we have one mediator.

I once had an opportunity to engage in a Q & A with a RC theologian. I pressed him on the question of what basis they claimed for this idea that Mary was without actual sin, and he admitted to the group I was with that they do NOT consider it a biblical doctrine, but that it is a "revered tradition."

I see this the same way you do. One prayer to any "saint", including Mary, is one too many.

However, I don't have any problem with the fact that the Nicene Creed says "Virgin Mary" instead of "Mary the Virgin" or "the virgin, whose name was Mary." It seems more efficient the way they phrase it. The Nicene Creed only proclaims that Mary was a virgin. It does not proclaim that Mary was without sin.

I also have no problem with the Nicene Creed acknowledging, as you and I do, one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins. "16John answered them all, “I baptize you with water. But one more powerful than I will come, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire."

This Baptism by the Holy Spirit, which John preached, this very "baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins," is the same one acknowledged in the Creed, and acknowledged by you and I.

You said: "It is the baptism of the Holy Spirit that brings life to the repentant sinners dead spirit and makes him/her born again."

John the Baptist said: "He [Jesus] will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire."

The Nicene Creed says: "We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins."

I say: "I am with you guys. :) "

I am also with you on all of your post except the last sentence. I still don't see any differences between what the Creed says, and what the scripture says - (except in the word order regarding Mary, the virgin mother of Jesus.)

Just because the Catholics hold an unscriptural doctrine regarding Mary, whom they refer to as "the Virgin" - making it some sort of a term of art, does not make it any less accurate of a description, as used in the creed itself.

It feels wierd to be discussing this when it feels to me like we are saying the same thing!

Bill, there may be churches, including the RCC, who have taken this Creed and perverted it. If so, that is a crying shame. Not knowing too much about those churches, I still read the Creed and simply look at the text. As far as I can tell, the text itself is faithful to scripture, and remains a good starting place for a person who wants to grasp the basic, orthodox fundamentals of the Christian faith.

Mike