Aiming

[steve morley]

I prefer to shoot Split Vision\Gap because it’s best suited to the distances I shoot in competition and is easy to switch from marked target to un-marked 3D and Animal rounds,which I do a lot. (Varity is the spice of life :) )

I do also use Instinctive and Point of Aim if I think the shot requires it. Using Instinctive method on really close or moving targets and the Point of aim method on some of the longer shots.

Just wondered how many archers use more than one aiming method.

:shooting:

[Papabull]

That's pretty much my strategy, too, Steve. AT 20+ yards, gap shooting is the only way to fly for me - except in NFAA 600 rounds or other such rounds with standard sizes and standard distances - sometimes point of aim works bets for them. Short distances - when it feels right, I let fly. I realize that visual cues are what makes it "feel right", though, because it never "feels right" if I close my eyes. :)

[Eaglearcher]

Steve
Excuse my ignorance, but could you just clarify for me what you mean by some of the different aiming methods that you use?
I understand Instinctive and Gap (I use these myself) but i am a little confused by "Point of aim method".
To me "Gap" is measuring a known distance from the target to a point above or below the target and aiming at this point. Is this what you call "point of aim" and am i using the wrong nomclature by calling it "gap". If this is the case then what is "Gap"
Help i am confused!! :sbrug: :sbrug: :sbrug:

[steve morley]

I think they all kind of blend into each other, which makes it hard to explain.

Instinctive: is hand\eye co-ordination without looking at the arrow, if you look at the pic you can see my top knuckle is vey close to the arrow, I just use that to point where I want my arrow to go.

Split Vision\Gap: is where you look at the spot you want to hit, but aware of where your arrows is in relation to the target, say 70% focus on the spot and 30% on where the arrow is pointing in relation to the target.

Point of Aim: is where the pile of the arrow is used exclusively either a point on the ground or the target.

It's explained pretty well on the Tradjournal section. :)

http://tradtalk.com/tradjournal/show_articles.php?subaction=showfull&id=1110999400&archive=&start_from=&ucat=&

[Eaglearcher]

Thanks Steve.
That means i use Point of aim on the long shots and Instinctive on the short ones (15yds and under).
Now i must go to that link and give it a bit of a read!

[thisbucks4u]

All the above including string walking and face walking.

[Desert Archer]

tb4u,

There may be someone out there who will prove me wrong but I'm fairly sure all string walkers and face walkers are "pont of aim" shooters. The one really good stringwalker I know moves up and down the string to keep his arrow point on the center of the target as his "front sight". I am a face walker (multiple anchors for various ranges) and "aim" the arrow point at either a part of the target (bottom, middle or top) or some point under the target (20 yards is 1/2 target width below the bottom of the paper).

Dave

[thisbucks4u]

Dave you are absolutely right. Now what was the question? :)

Right now Im trying to get proficient with all these and shoot split finger, im mostly three under right now.

[Desert Archer]

I'm not smart enough to do all of them. I picked the one that was closest to my 30+ years of handgunning. Point of aim seemed to work best, 'cause I just can't get comfortable with 3 under.

Dave

[Dalion]

Wow, I thought I was alone using every aiming method I knew to get through a round shooting with the compounders. There are only two other guys I shoot with that shoot classic bows and they are both instinctive shooters. Most everyone else around here shoots compounds and when I shoot with them the only way I can beat them is by using all the aiming methods mentioned on different targets.

[danbow34]

i'm an instinctive shooter it throughs me off to look at the arrow. thats why on my warf i shot it off the shelf , like to keep the arrow as cloce to my hand as i possibly can. i also shot one over two under just never could get used to three under.

dan

[Papabull]

Dallion, I think of that strategy as the "carpentere's philosophy" of archery. Having a good claw hammer in your toolbelt will let you do a whole lot of things a carpenter needs to do. Decide to add a screwdriver, level, shave spoke, razor knive, chalk line and some other stuff and you're ready for everything. :) The more tools you have and know how to use as an archer, the better, in my opinion. :)

[thisbucks4u]

My thoughts exactly PB.

[bowshooter74]

where would using one pin or 2 pins fall? would it be gap or point of aim. I use to gap shoot with the end of my arrow, i have a pin now and i really dont see much difference with a recurve, its still like gapping right? :sbrug:

[SteveMcD]

What PapaBull and Steve said. Split Vision/Gap & Point of Aim. :highfive:

[Stagmitis]

I really dont beleive there is a shooting style that can be defined as "Instinctintive" shooting if one has subscribed to its modern day definition.

If completely understood and in conjunction with the appropriate anchor and cant of the bow, "Split Vision" can be accomplished at ANY distance except "point on" which incorporates no "Gap".

There is also a distinct difference between "point of aim" and "Point on".

Point of aim is primarily a target style and the distance must be known so the archer can place the tip of the arrow on a specific mark either above or below the target in order to hit it.


There is only "ONE" Point on for each archer shooting a particular weight bow. Simply put, the arrow tip must be placed directly on the target on a single distance in order to hit the bullseye.



All of my shooting is "Split Vision".

[Desert Archer]

bowshooter74,

I may be mis-understanding your question, but your use of the term "pin" implies a "sight pin" which implies using a sight (dah!). All the methods being discussed above are "barebow" aiming methods. No pins involved.

Dave

[Papabull]

A common misunderstanding that seems unique to traditional archery causes the contentious discussions that often take place when it comes to aiming. Aiming is merely the process of directing toward a target or goal. Whether it's a slingshot or a paper wad, an aspiration or an arrow, aiming is necessary if one has a goal in mind. Archers accustomed to shooting compound bows with sights come to incorrectly associate aiming with sights and end up considering them to be synonymous even though this is not corrrect at all. The concept of "instinctive" actually applies to aiming more than shooting, but semantics have become all important so the term "instinctive aiming'" never did catch on and so the unusual concept of shooting aimlessly has attained a certain cult status.

If we all properly understood what "aiming" was, the only thing left to debate would be which method of aiming was most effective and that wouldn't be particularly contentious because without the inappropriate distinction between "aiming" archers and "aimless" archers, archery would once again be properly framed as the results-oriented sport it really is.

[Matt]

I use split the vision/gap method. But at the same time I'm also using the knuckle on my index finger to point at the spot I want. I also have my head tilted over shaft. I concentrate on the place I'm wanting to hit while I line up the verticle line with my shaft. I'm trying to perfect my technique because if I hold my shot to long I have a tendancy to pluck the string or to jerk my bowarm. But if on focusing hard enough on imagining myself pointing at the target it tends to keep my bow arm steady. I try to keep a relaxed grip on my bow too, so I'm less likley to torque when I shoot.

I can't seem to gap shoot with both eyes open. Can you guys? I go cross eyed unless I close my left eye.

[Lane Puckett]

A common misunderstanding that seems unique to traditional archery causes the contentious discussions that often take place when it comes to aiming. Aiming is merely the process of directing toward a target or goal. Whether it's a slingshot or a paper wad, an aspiration or an arrow, aiming is necessary if one has a goal in mind. Archers accustomed to shooting compound bows with sights come to incorrectly associate aiming with sights and end up considering them to be synonymous even though this is not corrrect at all. The concept of "instinctive" actually applies to aiming more than shooting, but semantics have become all important so the term "instinctive aiming'" never did catch on and so the unusual concept of shooting aimlessly has attained a certain cult status.

If we all properly understood what "aiming" was, the only thing left to debate would be which method of aiming was most effective and that wouldn't be particularly contentious because without the inappropriate distinction between "aiming" archers and "aimless" archers, archery would once again be properly framed as the results-oriented sport it really is.

Now this is about the best description I've ever seen put on paper.

Thanks papaBull

[van_fl]

That’s what I’ve been trying so say for six months here and have never been able say it so well. :highfive:

[Desert Archer]

I go cross eyed unless I close my left eye.
Matt,

Sounds like you are left eye dominant, which can be a problem if you are right handed. I used to be a firearms instructor (mostly handgun) and right handed students who were left eye dominant had problems seeing the sights.

With handguns you can tilt your head over further but in archery the anchor point on the side of your face makes that impossible. To look down the arrow for windage alignment you my have to keep on closing your left eye.

Dave

[Eaglearcher]

Matt
I have to agree with DE there
My wife is right handed and left eye dominant and we had problems when she started shooting. We did eventually find a solution. She shoots left handed!!
Why not give it a go, its not as difficult to learn as you think.
I am left handed and have always shoot left handed but when i started teaching archery i found that occasionally i would have to pick up a right handed bow and shoot it. After a little practice i have become a reasonable shot. One advantage i have found is that with my bow arm being my stronger arm, it is much steadier than the other one and the only problem i had was settling in with a new anchor.

[mjhall]

When I first began to shoot a recurve I started "gap" shooting, referencing the point of the arrow, because it made sense to me. Another archer who gave me some very useful help when I started, tried to get me to try what he called "instinctive" shooting. He said he didn't even see the arrow in peripheral vision. He then explained about using the knuckle on his bow hand. It all sounded to me like "gap" shooting, just using a different fixed reference instead of the arrow tip?? The only advantage I could think of is you could use different length arrows??
I think you could face a target, and point the arrow anywhere from straight up to straight down or preferably somewhere in between, but somehow, something has to make the decision where, in order to hit your intended target. I can certainly see that as you gain experience the aiming process becomes more natural, or "second nature".

Mike

[elkdreamer]

well.......time to do the first post on tradtalk.......about my weird way of doing it..........and it took a long long time to get here. i have been shooting traditional since i was probably 15 and being 63 one would think i had it down......nope.....have done my share of killing but never with the feeling that it was a slam dunk .......3d.......the dart system.......was having a lot of fun but the scores silently left me mean-spirited at best. lots of advise......read all the books.......studied the videos for ever........read all the threads and archives...........through all of this the target panic had become a full time career. so about two months ago after a bad dart round the time had come to give it up or do something off the wall.........giving it up being not an option......i went to the sand pit and proceeded to change my life......i predraw to my nose pushing the first joint of the thumb against the right nostril......completely pushing in that nostril. i set my gap/pt of aim with the arrow tip and then close both eyes and draw to anchor [ three under/middle finger corner of the mouth/thumb locked behind jaw bone ]......eyes are stilled closed while i settle in to the anchor and hold..........then i open both eyes and focus only...... and this is the key .......focus only on the spot i want to hit at 20 yrds or under.........if i focus totally on that spot..........it works so well that it's beyound scary.........beyound 20 yrds on out to 40 plus ......i pick a spot above where i want my arrow to end up.......do the predraw thing.....do the eye close anchor thing.....open and focus totally on the spot above the intended strike point........and it works like nothing i have ever tried before............the target panic is gone..........my draw length in two months has gone from 26.5 to a full 28 .......... and for the first time in a lifetime of shooting traditonal..........i have total confidence and joy in the fact that i'm going to be an 8 and a lot of the time now.... 10 or better at what ever target i shoot at........and it's a system for me that is fast enough to handle any shooting scene........i shot the bouncing ball/games round in darts the other night and pulled a 264......that being something like awesome for me...........kinda of a strange way of getting out of the barn........but it has totally changed my shooting and put a joy in this tradition addiction that i have never never had before........elkdreamer

[Matt]

I didn't wright my post right. If I'm gaping by looking down the barrell of the shaft I'm fine. But if I look down and try to focus on the point, with both eyes, I go haywire.

I've done the dominant eye test. I'm right eye for sure.

[Lumis17]

When aiming and using the arrow tip as a reference I have to keep my focus the same for each shot. I focus on the spot and see the arrow tip as a blurry figure in my vision. Switching my focus back and forth between the target and arrow tip is a sure way to get left/right errors, especially shooting near my point-on and farther out.

[Desert Archer]

I'm right eye for sure.

Matt, nevermind (smiley face goes here).

elkdreamer,

Congrats on finding a system that works for you. The fact that you overcame target panic at the same time is just that much better. Shoot well and enjoy!!

Dave

[Matt]

Aaaahh,

Lumis that's exactly what I do. Thanks. :highfive:

[Papabull]

As per a conversation currently taking place elsewhere, aiming is something we all do if we try to hit a target. Out of 4 different complete definitions for "aim", not one had a reference to "sights" or "gap" or "cheating". ;)

4 entries found for aim.
aim Audio pronunciation of "aim" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (m)
v. aimed, aim·ing, aims
v. tr.

1. To direct (a weapon) toward an intended target.
2. To direct toward or intend for a particular goal or group: The publicity campaign was aimed at improving the eating habits of children.


v. intr.

1. To direct a weapon: a gunner aiming carefully.
2. To determine a course or direct an effort: aim for a better education.
3. To propose to do something; intend: The historical society is aiming to restore the town hall.


n.

1.
1. The act of aiming.
2. Skill at hitting a target: The shooter's aim was perfect.
2.
1. The line of fire of an aimed weapon.
2. The degree of accuracy of a weapon.
3. A purpose or intention toward which one's efforts are directed.
4. Obsolete. A target; a mark.
5. Obsolete. A conjecture; a guess.


[Middle English aimen, from Old French esmer, to estimate (from Latin aestimre), and from Old French aesmer(from Vulgar Latin *ad estimre : Latin ad-, ad- + Latin aestimre, to estimate).]

Synonyms: aim, direct, level, point, train
These verbs mean to turn something toward an intended goal or target: aimed the camera at the guests; directing my eyes on the book; leveled criticism at the administration; pointing a finger at the suspect; trained the gun on the intruder. See also synonyms at intention

[scotty]

...

[CarolinaBob]

I wonder if putting a peep on the string would aid in getting good string "therefore the arrow" alignment to the center of the eye. If so would it be more important than anchor point. Basically what is more important string eye alignment or anchor at the corner of the mouth. Maybe I could shoot like I did with a compound, peep and kisser on the string and who cares where the drawing hand is.

[Viper]

Bob -

NO!!!! The peep on any bow is a reference point and NOT a replacement for a solid consistant anchor!!! That's the problem a lot of compound guys have; they rely on the peep and don't worry about the anchor enough.

Too easy to get a "fuzzy" picture through the peep and not have a solid rear sight. That kills your alignment.

Now, if you can keep your anchor soild AND use the peep as a reference point, then you might have something.

BTW - Before FITA became the target org or choice, the NFAA allwed peeps in FS. Most of recurve sight shooters used one. (Still have a few laying around for the 70's.)

Viper out.

[rtpcat]

Scotty, if your talking about wanting shoot without sight. You can probably do better than you think right now. You can hit with sights, so use the same bow arrow combo, cant the bow to 1:00 or so draw your bow anchor look at your target and shoot. Try it up close first, you can probably shoot a football size group right off, keep the cant the same to start with. You will figure out what you need to focus on, the speed of the shot comes the more you shoot.
I can shoot football size group at 15yds by drawing my anchor hand to somewhere about my the middle of my chest to shoulder with a floating anchor, now where the group is maybe questionable, and will change each round as I try to point my bow hand where I want the arrow to go.
Tuning? if an arrow will shoot a broadhead straight it is not to far off, have never noticed arrow change impact from field points but I have had arrow fly like a curveball or slider. Need a different arrow if that is happening. If all this is not related to what you were asking just forget that I typed it.

[CarolinaBob]

Viper you missed my anchor; the kisser. A kisser is the anchor. If I remember right I used to shoot compound with peep for string alignment. The kisser was my anchor, kisser touches face, I am at anchor. Correct?? Should work with recurve right, Could I not see the tip of the arrow in the peep and learn to gap that way?

[Viper]

Bob -

Neither the peep nor the kisser button are anchors, only reference points. A real anchor needs to be bone on bone contact, and should be used in the same sense as "boat anchor" - it has to be that solid.

Does that mean that's the only workable theory, certainly not, but it's the best practices approach for most people.

Viper out.

[scotty]

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