Healing The Sick

[Garry]

Healing The Sick by T.L. Osborn.

My book was in the mail this morning and although I am only a third of the way through it I already consider it a must read for those of us who want to learn more about God's provisions for healing the sick, yesterday, today and tomorrow.

[Garry]

I forgot to mention that I thought this book was very enlighting considering the discussion we have had on whether Mark 16:15-20 applies to all believers today.

[Swanny]

Hi Garry, what's the gist so far?

God wants everyone to be healed physically in this life and it's up to each individual to only have faith?

Or does it acknowledge the 'now and not yet' aspects of the kindgom of Christ with God indeed healing some in the 'now', but total healing for all His children guarranteed in the 'not yet'?

[Ray Cover]

Marsh,

I agree with you on the healing issue :)

I beleive that God can and will heal anyone He so chooses to heal for what ever reason He has decided to do it.

However, I do not beleive that we can manipulate God into healing or prevent Him from doing so by our level of beleif or faith.

God is sovereign and acts independant of us. He sees a much bigger picture than we do and He has much more pure and perfect motives than we do.

God can and will intercede with physical healing if He chooses to. However, God is not a puppet Who is manipulated with our "Faith strings".

That is not to say that God does not answer prayer. He just sometimes says "no" for reasons beyond our comprehension or vision.

Ray

[Ray Cover]

:amen:

Well said.

[Cato]

I think Ray pretty much nailed my understanding, which appears to line up with Marsh.

I think much of this can only be understood when we have a proper understanding of God's sovereignty and His purpose for man. We are put on this earth for His purposes; to live a life that pleases Him and accomplishes His kingdom agenda. When our hearts are truly given over to God, that will become our main satisfaction in this life. And as we do that, we will "lay up treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroy".

It is difficult when we see a devoted Christian person suffering with sickness. It is hard sometimes for us to remeber that God uses and allows many things to accomplish spiritual things that we cannot physically see. But in the end, it boils down to trusting God. While things on this earth do not seem fair, as Christians, we know that one day we will look in the rearview mirror and realize that God truly did work all these things for the good of those who are called according to His purpose.

Cato

[WildmanSC]

In every instance of the healing we see in the Bible, every account begins with God initiating the action, for Scripture tells us that Jesus is the Great Physican, and that He, and He only chooses us to be saved. Therefore Spiritual Healing, ie Salvation is not something we seek, but rather it is what He desires.

Marsh,

There are a couple of passages of scripture that shed a bit different light on what you state above.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Salvation can come about only as the result of the Father drawing us to the Son, as the result of the convicting power of the Holy Spirit under the foolishness of preaching. Furthermore, God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance (and therefore salvation through the shed blood of Jesus Christ).

Bill

[Ray Cover]

Help me Bill, I'm not seeing what your pointing out. :confused:

To me all three statements are saying that God initiates the salvation process.

Ray

[WildmanSC]

Help me Bill, I'm not seeing what your pointing out. :confused:

To me all three statements are saying that God initiates the salvation process.

Ray

Ray,

The point I'm making is that there is a very dangerous, unbiblical "doctrine" that says that God chose before the foundation of time who would get saved, election, and furthermore that no one else can get saved. The scriptures I quoted above refute that unbiblical "doctrine".

The Holy Spirit does draw the unregenerate sinner to Christ as he sits under the foolishness of preaching, but the sinner must yield to that drawing, repent and be born again. As the old saw goes, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

God sheds his mercy and grace and gives the sinner the faith to believe (Eph 2:8-9). He even gives us the repentant heart we need to be saved. But we as a sinner must give action to that repentance and confess with our mouths (Romans 10:9) or we will not be saved.

I hope that clarifies what I was saying above.

Bill

[Ray Cover]

It does Bill Thanks. I wasn't seeing what your were saying. Some days folks just need to draw me a picture. :o

I think a lot of that debate that often goes on between Baptist/charasmatic and Reform denominations concerning this often gets taken too far (in my oppinion).

There are some who take it to the extent that it leads to an easy believism and others who take it to the point to say that God condemns some to hell from the start. I don't think either of those is correct.

Exactly how the Holy Spirit makes that work between our conscience and His call to and empowering of salvation is beyond me. I have heard both reform and non reform Christians make good biblical arguments for both. Myself I sit on the fence on that one.

I have found that most conservative folks on both sides would agree that salvation is fully a work of God but that does not void our resposibility in our salvation. That is about the only thing I personally would be dogmatic on in relation to the exact "hows and whys" of God's working our salvation.

Be blessed guys,

Ray

[Lambow]

The Presbaterian (sp) church believes heavily in predestination. It comes from the teachings of Martin Luther.

I too believe in predestination, but not to the extent that Luther teaches.
There's a lot i don't understand about it, but i do understand when the Lord speaks of "the called" & "the elected".

[Ray Cover]

Marsh,

We are in agreement there. But some folks twist that doctrine to claim that since God "forordained" those who accept Christ, that by the same token means he condemned some to go to hell.

It is God's perogotive to show mercy on whom He will show mercy and it is not God who condemns us but rather its our own depravity in our fallen state. One can properly hold the notion that God forordains and saves but man sins and is self condemned....and God is not under obligation to show mercy to any of us. If He was under obligation it would be wages and not Grace. In with all that is a responsibility on our part for which we will all be accountable before God.

I agree with your outline of how the doctrine is properly understood but a lot of folks don't. I think there is a danger of missundersanding this doctrine.

If missunderstood in one direction, one sees God as an eletist snob who is a respecter of men. This gives some in the Christian camp grounds for great pride and arrogance (think pharasee).

If missunderstood in the other way, one says ,"I am chosen so I can live how I want and still go to heaven". Of course, both missunderstandings cause problems with a man's relationship to God.

Ray

[Swanny]

"2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

Too funny...wife, kids and I were having a discussion about this verse tonight. Read Pete's 2 letter today while on my lunch break at work and was noticing a particular flow of thought as he writes.

Both letters are to the 'scattered elect' and in his second letter he constantly makes obvious distinctions to whom he's referring to (just a sampling among many):

1:3 "His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us...."

1:12 "So I will always remind you of these things...."

1:16 "We did not follow cleverly invented stories...."

2:1 "But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies..."

2:13 "They will be paid back for the harm they have done."

3:1 "Dear friends, this is now my second letter to you. I have written both of them to stimulate you to wholesome thinking. I want you to recall..."

3:3-6 "First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. They will say "where is this 'coming' he promised?"....but they forget....

I'm seeing a trend up to this point in his letter ... when Peter says 'you', 'we', or 'us, he's referring to the church, the elect of God, but when Peter says 'them' or 'they', he's referring to the false teachers or the scoffers who are not part of the church, but rather part of those who will receive the just judgement.

So, when I read the verse in 3:9 to prove that God doesn't want 'anyone to perish'...

Bill singles it out, as many do, and uses it in a way that insists that what Peter meant by 'not wanting anyone to perish' has to be every single person that ever lived on the face of the earth.

But I wonder if the context would better support the group Peter is referring to.... the 'elect' (the body of Christ, the church chosen by the Father as in Eph. 1) because he distinctly uses the pronoun 'us' or 'us-ward' in the verse. To paraphrase:

vs. 9 "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise [the promise in dispute made to His bride....'where's his coming'?] , as some understand slowness. He is patient with YOU [his elect, the church...not 'them' the scoffers and false teachers], not wanting anyone [of you] to perish, but everyone [of you] to come to repentance."

vs. 11 "Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming"

Looking for some constructive feedback here. What'ya think? :)

[Ray Cover]

Swanny,

That is the way I understand it. That God is refering to the saved who are redeemed unto God and in the church body.

I beleive that is what it is refering to for two reasons.

1. The pronouns you refered to make it pretty clear to me that Peter is writing to those already in the church body and not humanity as a whole.

2. If he is talking about humanity as a whole, then you have a contridiction between what God says in that its His will for "everyone" to be redeemed and the reality of some not being redeemed. It makes a real contradictory problem to work out. It also puts God's soveriegnty in question in that God's stated will is not being done by God.

I don't know if I stated that in a clear way but I think the idea will come across.

:2cents:
Ray

[Esquire]

It's been an interesting discussion. You know, there used to ba a fellow around here who preached incessantly that When God created someone, it was either for damnation or salvation and that the person had no part to play whatsoever, in the outcome.

This is so clearly opposite scripture (eg: see John 3:16) that it demonstrates the dangers of which Ray spoke so well. God draws us first, but absent a response (belief, repentance, decision) on our part, we are not saved. Or to put it another way, God will not save us against our will.

He made us for relationship and there can be no genuine relationship where the will is not involved.

God is Sovereign and we have freedom to choose. Between these two great truths the mysterious realities of salvation and redemption are to be found.

[CM Sackett]

Bill ("marsh...whatever you're calling yourself today),

Before they ban you, YET AGAIN, for your vomitous rantings which unbiblically make hopeless prisoners of both the King, who so "loved the WORLD"... that He gave His only Begotten Son, AND the frightened billions (at any given moment on this orb) "made in His image".

The only truth in your last spewing is that God is always correct. The rest, is your TRADEMARK system of tearing Living Truth into tiny, dead "soundbites" and working feverishly to prove that the Frankensteinian "body" of "evidence" you've created... is alive.

_______________________________________


Well, try to put the heart of this glorious proclamation, from the very mouth of God, the Son into your beast... and see how long it stays together...

"...Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in Him may have eternal life.

For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.

For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world... but to save the world through Him....."


The "world" Bill, not this thing you call "the church" was/is the focus of His heart-shredding sacrifice. Those whose hearts and minds and lives were/are so moved by the magnitude of that Love AND Sacrifice that they come... surrender... confess... obey... and believe (TRUST) the Message that accompanies the Truth about that Love and Sacrifice... THEY are adopted... made whole... cleansed... and together BECOME THE BRIDE... the BODY... the "ecclecia" (the called out, or "church" as you love to constantly spit...).

You would make an arbitrary Condemner out of the very Lord of Hosts who lived the agony of sending His ONLY BEGOTTEN SON into this seething cauldron of lost humanity SPECIFICALLY for the purpose of saving "whosoever will" BELIEVE...

* Believe that they actually ARE loved THAT MUCH

* Believe there IS a way OUT OF THE MADNESS

* Believe and Obey His SIMPLE, CLEAR instructions about what's required OF THEM to receive so astounding a GIFT.


And, you would make BOTH, the Christ who came... lived... taught... and commanded that a MESSAGE OF SALVATION be PREACHED... TO THE LOST...

and

the writhing, choking masses who have/do receive the sweet, cool, refreshing Truth of this Message WITH GLADNESS and joyous Surrender...

YOU, Bill (and your ilk) would make them BOTH out to be, at best... FOOLS. And of the Christ, either a MISGUIDED Proclaimer of UNTRUTHS... or a VISCOUS, CRUEL, MALIGNANT LIAR! (...for who, other than such a demon would send his witnesses "...into ALL THE WORLD" with such a message... if he knew all along that HE would PICK who lived from who died... REGARDLESS OF WHAT THEY DID IN RESPONSE to the very message he ORDERED to be proclaimed?).


Contrary to your frozen passion to "prove" that God is somehow, a "neat and tidy package", whose bounderies and contents can be "safely" and "accurately" measured (for that is what you attempt to "prove" with your cut-n-paste "scripture" ramblings)... from His own lips comes the fearsome, yet freeing TRUTH... TO THE CONTRARY...

"...Let the wicked forsake his way and the evil man his thoughts.

Let him turn to the Lord, and He will have mercy on him, and to our God, for He will freely pardon.

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares THE LORD.

"As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. As the rain and the snow come down from heaven, and do not return to it without watering the earth and making it bud and flourish, so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater, so is my word that goes out from my mouth... IT WILL NOT RETURN TO ME EMPTY, BUT WILL ACCOMPLISH WHAT I DESIRE and achieve the purpose for which I sent it."

...and clearly, according to the context, that DESIRE and PURPOSE included the saving of the evil and wicked. And it required THEM to "turn" from that evil and wickedness.


And Bill, do I really have to remind you of the testimony of folk like JOB... JEREMIAH... MOSES... AMOS... the BAPTIZER...? The testimony of crying, screaming wonder... wondering "WHY????!!!!!". Wondering "WHEN???!!!!!". Wondering "WHAT??????????!!!!!!!!!!!!" Begging this God they served for some portion of "knowing" about things too big to be "known".


Bill, if you truly believe that man has NO SAY in his own destiny, between Heaven and Hell, then just enjoy what most definitely seems to be your assurance that YOU are one of the "lucky" few God "chose" to save... quietly... privately. For according to YOU, the lost have no chance... ANYWAY. At least let them exist on this side of their eternal agony... in some measure of ignorant peace.


Sackett

[Garry]

I believe it's God's will that man does not sin, but man does. I believe it's God's will for man to be healthy and to prosper, but many are not. I believe its God’s will that we love one another, but many don't. I believe it's God's will that no man perish.

God will's many thing for man but God gave man free will. Some free will choices by man lead to eternal life and other free will choices lead to eternal hell.

[Swanny]

Hi Ray, Thanks for the feedback. Regarding point # 2...here's an interesting article that deals with this 'contradiction' you refer to.

http://www.desiringgod.org/library/topics/doctrines_grace/2wills.html

Marsh 'McNeal'? - Tit. 3:10,11

[Swanny]

Bill Mcneal, Got your PM. I hesitated to go public with a rebuke, but the nature of your error seemed to prompt it, IMO. I've told you several times over the past couple of years that it is not in the Spirit of Christ that a man keep returning (and registering falsely) to multiple websites where he has gotten kicked out by the owners. Posting is a privilege, not a right, but obviously you've somehow continue to justify your doing so....all in the name of Christ.

For the life of me I don't understand it. Devisiveness does not totally depend on whether the information one is teaching is true or false, but is more related to the means/method/motive and manner one takes in doing it.

As far as our friendship is concerned - Christian love takes on different flavors. A rebuke is a form of love. I continue to pray you repent and turn from the error of your way...for the sake of Christ and His Father's name.

[Esquire]

Bill Mcneal, Got your PM. I hesitated to go public with a rebuke, but the nature of your error seemed to prompt it, IMO. I've told you several times over the past couple of years that it is not in the Spirit of Christ that a man keep returning (and registering falsely) to multiple websites where he has gotten kicked out by the owners. Posting is a privilege, not a right, but obviously you've somehow continue to justify your doing so....all in the name of Christ.

For the life of me I don't understand it. Devisiveness does not totally depend on whether the information one is teaching is true or false, but is more related to the means/method/motive and manner one takes in doing it.

Swanny (and others who have approached me on this matter), please know that it is being currently addressed by moderators.

Mike

[WildmanSC]

The key element to election is not predestination, it is foreknowledge on the part of God. To wit:

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

The predistination was based upon His Omniscience, Omnipresence and Omnipotence. He did foreknow who would hear the gospel preached, would under the convicting power of the Holy Spirit repent of their sins and be converted and conformed to the image of his Son.

I Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Clearly, the election is based upon His, God the Father's, foreknowledge.

It should also be pointed out that although early in John Chapter 3 the Lord Jesus Christ is addressing Nicodemus, clearly in John 3:16 He is not. In the earlier part of the Chapter He is saying "..ye must be born again." Nicodemus was confused, however his confusion was NOT that his birthright as a Jew was to be saved. His confusion was in essence "Lord, how must I be born again? Must I re-enter my Mother's womb and be born again?" Clearly, the Lord's response is that He was referring to rebirth of the spirit, which is dead, and not of the flesh or body which is alive.

In John 3:16 the Lord changes from addressing Nicodemus, "ye", to addressing humanity in its entirety, "...that WHOSOEVER believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life."

Bill

[Swanny]

Hi Wildman Bill,

Just wondering - in your understanding does God in any way, or in any sense predetermine what He foreknows?

[Ray Cover]

Forknowledge does not necessarily need to be tied to predeterminism.

For example; I know that someday I will die and that someday my wife and children will die. However, My knowing that has no cause-effect relationship with the events. Even If I were condenmed to die by lethal injection by the State of MO, I would know the day and the method. But even having knowledge in great detail about the event is not a cause of it.

God knowing who and when is not necessarily a cause of the event. That's not to say that God would not work toward making those events happen but His knowledge in itself would not cause the event.

The freewill vs predestination debate is an issue where I fence sit. I see and understand both arguments. I see logical Biblical reasoning for both arguments. The reason I sit on the fence is because I beleive this is one of those issues where our finite minds will never fully understand the workings of an infinite God. Even though God gave us the best description our minds can grasp we struggle with it (at least I do).

What I do know is that God worked my salvation and at the same time I am responsible for surendering to Christ as my Lord and ruling King.

I heard David Jeremiah sum it up the best I have ever heard. He said that he suspects that when we approach the gate to heaven over it will be a sign reading "you made the wise choice". Once we pass through and look back at the gate there will be another sign on the inside saying, "Jesus, thanks for choosing me."

We are not going to solve the issue on an internet froum guys. :)

God bless,

Ray

[Ray Cover]

Bill,

I would disagree that John 3:16 is talking about all humanity. "Whomsoever beleiveth in Him" is still the church.

It would be like me saying that "Whoever shoots a bow is an archer" That doesn't mean whoever is a human is an archer. That statement in itself does not necessarily include all humanity. It might but not necessarily.

What I mean is that we can't take out the argument that only those chosen will "beleiveth in Him" so the "whomseover beleiveth in Him" may also be whomsover was chosen or forordained. I'm not taking issue with your position, just that I don't think it can be made from John 3:16.

Now you see why I fence sit on this. :)

Ray

[Swanny]

"We are not going to solve the issue on an internet froum guys."

Hi Ray, I don't think I intend on solving the issue for anyone, but rather I poke around to gain insight on someone's perspective. Still would like to hear Bill's response if he so pleases....never have had the privilege to dialogue with him here.

Rom.8:28 “For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.”

It seemed like he interpreted it to read:

“For those God foreknew who would hear the gospel, repent and believe he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.”

If so, it seems the "who would hear/repent/believe" part is an assumption brought to the text....an eisegesis, which is forcing one's own ideas on the text (of which we are all guilty to some degree).

It plainly reads like this, IMO....

“For those [people...not animals, not carrots, not potatoes, not flies, etc. :) ) God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.”

God foreknew people themselves, not simply facts about them.

What do you think? Am I way out in left field by these observations, Bill?

Ray, what's your take on the word 'world' in Jn. 3:16....what in the world does 'world' mean?

I sit on the fence with some issues too (they give you a certain amount of perspective), but fences were never made to sit on very long. Everyone eventually gets off on one side or the other. That's growth in Grace and Knowledge of our Lord...making much of Him and being deeply impressed with Him. Just don't use the fence to excuse the mind from thinking and re-thinking. :)

[Ray Cover]

Swanny,

I have gone back and forth on this for about five years now and have yet to settle on it. And yes my back side is getting irritated from the pickets. :)

But I don't want to just jump off for the sake of getting off the fence. Honestly, I lean more towards the reform take on this but I have a hard time reconciling a hard line reform stance with the fact that man has a resposibility in his salvation. To what degree, is where I waver. And... to what degree man's "choice" is empowered/directed by God I frankly am not sure. That being said, I do not beleive man is autonomous and can act free of God. I can't even take my own breath free of God's will.

I have seen all the arguments and have heard all the sermons but I still am not totally settled on this particular issue. I'm not sure it is all that important that I be totally settled.

Besides, if God gave us all the answers to all the questions in plain english, how deep would we lazy humans dive into His word to find the answers? ;) It would take all the fun out of these discussions. :)

Ray

[WildmanSC]

Hi Wildman Bill,

Just wondering - in your understanding does God in any way, or in any sense predetermine what He foreknows?

Swanny,

What the Bible tells me is God:

1. Knew Adam and Eve was going to sin before the foundation of time and before He, Christ, created them.

2. It further tells me that because of this foreknowledge, He knew that He would not allow sin in His presence.

3. Therefore, He predestined, preordained that His Son, Christ Jesus, would come to Earth to be born of a virgin and would be crucified, buried and rise again on the third day so His shed blood could pay the required sacrifice for sin.

4. It also tells me that God knew before the foundation of time each and every person by name who would be born upon this planet, who would accept Christ as their Saviour under the convicting power of the Holy Spirit and who would reject that free gift of salvation.

IF salvation was solely of predistination, i.e., God choosing who would be saved, then there would be no reason for the scriptures being written, there would be no reason for:

Eph 2:8-9 For by grace through faith are ye saved, and that not of your own, it is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast.

Predistination would not be of grace nor of faith.

There is a very dangerous doctrine taught in many of the churches that teach the Calvinistic doctrines, the doctrine of irresistible grace. It teaches that as long as you can hold back, then it is just not your time to get saved. You can see people in those churches holding onto the back of the pew in front of them with a white knucked grip resisting the grace that God's Holy Spirit is offering to them.

The Bible clearly tells us that "...the Spirit of God will not always strive with man." In other words, you do not get an unlimited number of chances to resist the grace of God.

Bill

[K31Scout]

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.


John 3:16 is to me the guts of the entire gospel. God so loved the "world". I'm convinced that means Gentiles, all of mankind and all the heathens scattered across the earth. Gentiles are sometimes refered to as the world, the whole world or nations of the world.

[Ray Cover]

Bill,

I have seen as many good biblical arguments for Calvanism as I have for free will. Both have their pitfalls and strong points. That is what makes this such a tough issue.

One can make a valid argument that to be able to "resist" God one must be autonomous from God which man is not. At the same time there is a valid argument for man being responsible for "his" choice in salvation. This is not an easy straight forward issue.

I don't see this being as cut and dry as you lay it out here.

I don't see either doctrine as being "dangerous" in that they would prevent folks from accepting Christ. Frankly, I know of no one who understood the debate as a seeker. These debates often rise about after folks are saved and are well into bible study. I am sure there are some who are the execption, but most unredeemed folks don't know enough about these issues to debate them.

I do see the missunderstanding and abuse of any biblical doctrine as being potentially dangerous.


:2cents:
Ray

[K31Scout]

Ray, I can see the Bible has got to be the most studied book ever! :) I've been reading it for just 8 months and find it fasinating. I'm in a small group bible study and am taking membership classes at my church...Church of the Nazarene; Wesley doctrine. I am enjoying everyones views here and like to throw out my own too! :) I can tell a lot of you guys have been at this a while.

[Ray Cover]

Kscout,

I beleive your right. What is nice is that on most issues of the nature of God and salvation by grace and the other primary issues most demoninations agree. Its the secondary issues that most folks disagree on. The issues that do not have bearing on ones salvation or who God is, but can be important issues about how God deals with His church.

None of us understand scripture perfectly (I certainly don't) but this type of discussion is always profitable. For me I find it profitable because folks like Swanny and Bill get on here and challenge me to think a little deeper about my faith and the doctrines I beleive. I know that Swanny sometimes plays devil's advocate just to make me do more research. :)...and I appreciate him for that.

When folks can discuss without getting enraged and mad at each other it is always good. It makes us think about what we beleive rather than just taking a SS teacher or preacher's word for it. When you do that your faith becomes your own rather than a hand me down that was passed to you from an older brother.

Ray

[WildmanSC]

Ray,

The place where the doctrine of irresistible grace is dangerous is in churches who teach it as biblical doctrine/fact. As I stated above, I've observed pople holding onto the backs of pews with white knuckles resisting the irresistible grace. In fact, God's grace is resistible. That is where I see the danger coming into play.

John 3:16 clearly is written to the WORLD not the church. For God so loved the WORLD that He gave His only begotten Son that WHOSOEVER believeth in Him shall not perish but hath eternal life.

Taken in that context, it then follows that God knew who the WHOSOEVER's would be that would believe in Him and in Rom.8:28 “For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.” The foreknowledge of those who would believe led to God the Father's predistination of the sacrifice of His Son in blood payment for their sins.

Furthermore in 2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to usward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

Repentance is an essential element of salvation and man will perish unless he repents and is born again. See John 3:18, John 3:36 and Romans 10:9-10 &13.


Bill

[Swanny]

Hi Bill, I'm a little slow here...long day at work, so please bear with me.

I think you've answered to the first question 'no...God doesn't predetermine who get's saved...he merely looks into the future and sees that they will either accept or reject...if they repent and believe of their own accord, then He predestines them to salvation'. Is this an accurate description?

And regarding my thoughts on your quoting Rom.8:29 whether it is saying God knows facts about people, or people themselves...do you agree or disagree and why?

Does Scripture teach faith and repentance (responses in man toward the Gospel) are gifts?

Ray, Have you ever compared and contrasted Old Covenant with New Covenant to get a better picture of God's Sovereignty vs. man's responsibility?

KScout....I'm glad to hear of your searching the Scriptures. I pray they will continue to make you deeply impressed with what God has done in Christ.

[WildmanSC]

I think you've answered to the first question 'no...God doesn't predetermine who get's saved...he merely looks into the future and sees that they will either accept or reject...if they repent and believe of their own accord, then He predestines them to salvation'. Is this an accurate description?

Yes, God predestines based on His foreknowledge which comes about as the result of His Ominiscience and Omnipresence.

{QUOTE]And regarding my thoughts on your quoting Rom.8:29 whether it is saying God knows facts about people, or people themselves...do you agree or disagree and why?[/QUOTE]

God knows everything about each and every person. In fact, once again because of His Omniscience, He knew it before the foundation of time as we know it.

Does Scripture teach faith and repentance (responses in man toward the Gospel) are gifts?

Yes. Faith cometh by hearing, hearing by the Word of God. and Eph 2:8-9 answers directly the question regarding faith being a gift. As far as repentance is concerned I must give a qualified yes answer. I must qualify it because there are two forms of repentance in the Bible, the noun form and the verb form. The noun form of repentance God gives us a gift. We are told what we must do to be saved, Without repentance there is no remission of sins. The verb or action form we must do ourselves. We must take the acquired knowledge of the requirement for repentance and put it into action and actually repent of our sins. If we are given a gift and do nothing with it, we have wasted the gift.

I often use as an illustration the example of my wife and her coupons. As we have gotten older she has slowed down with the cutting out and using of coupons, but she used to have a billfold in which she kept coupons. Everytime we went to the store she would see something and would say "Oh, I have a dollar off coupon for that." But, she would often forget to redeem the coupons and they would reach the expiration date and be of no value. The same thing applies to the gift of repentance God gives to man in the noun form. If we do not redeem that gift by putting it into action, we reach the expiration date when we die, if not before.

Bill

[Rooselk]

The Presbaterian (sp) church believes heavily in predestination. It comes from the teachings of Martin Luther.

I too believe in predestination, but not to the extent that Luther teaches.
There's a lot i don't understand about it, but i do understand when the Lord speaks of "the called" & "the elected".

Just a point of clarification to say that it was Calvin, not Luther, that taught the doctrine of "double predestination" - ie, that God predestines some to heaven and others to hell. Luther taught so-called "single predestination" which says that God does not predestine anyone to hell.

[Lambow]

Roseelk,
Thanks for pointing out my mistake. It was Calvin that tought, what he thought predestination means. I don't believe God picks & chooses who's going to hell. But he can foresee what choices man makes.

I believe God let's us know only what we need to know, to a certain extent. To take certain scripture and disect it to the point where it creates confusion in the church, is not what the Lord has intended. He want 's us to learn scripture, but not make a religion out of 1 verse, one chapter, or one book.

Here a little, there a little. Precept upon precept.

[WildmanSC]

Roseelk,
Thanks for pointing out my mistake. It was Calvin that tought, what he thought predestination means. I don't believe God picks & chooses who's going to hell. But he can foresee what choices man makes.

I believe God let's us know only what we need to know, to a certain extent. To take certain scripture and disect it to the point where it creates confusion in the church, is not what the Lord has intended. He want 's us to learn scripture, but not make a religion out of 1 verse, one chapter, or one book.

Here a little, there a little. Precept upon precept.

Lambow,

Actually, John Chapter 3 contains everything one needs to know to be saved. Praise the Lord the rest of the scriptures when taken within the context of John Chapter 3 just validates the gospel message contained therein. Ye must be born again, God so loved the world He gave his only begotten Son, whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life, He who hath the Son hath life, He hath not the only begotten Son of God hath not life, Whosever believeth in Him shall not be condemned, whosoever believeth not is condemned already.

The other chapters in John, the other gospels, the gospel contained in the various epistles to the local churches, and even the Old Testament, see Isaiah Chapter 53, puts to and validates the truths contained in the gospel message of John Chapter 3.

Bill

[Swanny]

Hi Bill, Thanks for your replies. Been short on time recently, but intend on commenting when I get an opportunity, DV.