HOw About a Wood Riser for ILF Carbon Limbs?

[The Gray Fox]

I was just reading a thread on another site about whether or not there will be any real innovation in the future for bows with laminated limbs. Well, I'm not a woodworker or a machinist/mechanic, but I wonder if it would be economically feasible for someone to offer a series of wood risers, probably laminated for rigidity, for the ILF carbon limbs? They would be provided with the standard limb bolt and one locator pin where the ILF hardware is on the limb.

Then we need Bob or someone to put out a kit with instructions that even I could follow to remove the ILF fittings and replace them with the bushings for a blind locator pin. A set of Bob's aluminum shims could also be purchased to allow us to vary the weight by 2-3 pounds.

Just think what might be possible if say 16", 18" and 20" risers were available and we used the 40 through 46# W&W short or medium carbon limbs that Lancaster sells for $200. The riser manufacturer could offer anything from a base dull finished dark dyed laminated birch hunting riser to the most exotic set of laminates for the shooter who wants to show off a bow on the 3-D circuit. Grips could be offered in low, medium or high. Want to be really retro, offer an option for capsules of mercury in the riser the way the great Pearson bows did.

Does anyone else think they would buy one of these at a reasonable price? I really love my TD-3 risers, but I'd sure love to be able to slap a set of those limbs on my '64 Hoyt Pro Medalist riser.

Maybe I'm just dreaming, but I hope not.

[DAS]

Gray fox,
I'm a little surprised that someone hasn't done it, but here are my thoughts. For the guys who are really after performance in their bows, there is really no substitute for a metal riser. The list of advantages is a mile long. For those guys, a wood riser would fall short of what they want.
The guys who are really into the aesthetics of bows would love the laminated wood and be willing to give up some features and performance to get it. The only problem is they would hate the look of FITA limbs. By the time they got through gluing on snake skins or wood verneers to hide all the decals and metallic paint, they might as well just buy a custom takedown.
Probably the best compromise would be a high strength titanium subframe covered by wood laminates, but it would end up costing $1,000 just for the riser so no one would want that either!
It's a no win situation.

[Glynn Sluder]

I would love to see new metal risers that employ the best of both worlds.

I think my proline riser is cool, almost got a "Blacktail" line to the shelf/riser area. It would be super to have the thin handle and manufactured ilf pockets on a 19- 20 inch riser with tapered lines in the fades.

Metal can be dressed however you want. Dull colors and camoed limbs :) or totally metalflaked with decals that put a Nascar to shame.

Just having good looking short risers to put super limbs on would be great. Can you work on that DAS?
Glynn

[DAS]

Glynn,
I'll give it some thought .......hmmmmm ;)

[Torsten]

Hello DAS,
did you mention titanium just for an other exotic material or do you see any benefit in its ust in a riser.
I have some doubts on that.

Please explain

[the other DWS]

This is one that I have been mulling over for a year or so. Long hours on the road give lots of time for imagineering.
I figure that a couple of full lenghtwise 1/8" woven carbon fibre slabs of the same stuff they sell in small pieces for knife scales would work. Lots of rigidity and relatively light weight. I'd alternate them "eye-beam" style with a nice hard tightgrain wood--birds-eye rock maple and cuban Mohogany or something like that and grind'em to shape. carbon weave and stained maple would look really unique. floor of the limb pocket would be a 1/4" or so plate of anodized AL milled for the ILF fittings. I was thinking of taking this on as a project for next winter using the 20" Hoyt riser as the basic pattern just to see if it can be done.

[thisbucks4u]

I agree that for asthetics there isnt much out there prettier than wood. But I will let the number of wood risered bows that were shot in the last olympics speak for my views of the use of wood in performance minded recurves. Wood goes in the limbs, y'all.

[DAS]

Torsten, My mention of titanium is no accident. There are several reasons for it. First the ultimate strength of the better grades of titanium are higher than any aluminum based alloy, even the FORTAL-HR used in the DAS. It could be made very thin, so there would be room to laminate wood over it and still have a slim riser. Second, getting dissimilar materials to work in harmony takes forethought. The coefficient of thermal expansion of alluminum alloys is high while that of wood is very low. If you tried to bond them, one of two things would happen. Either the bond would hold and the riser would curl every time it got warm, or the bond would tear itself apart. Most likely the later would happen. Titanium has expansion characteristics closer to that of carbon steel and would be a better choice for a wood/metal union.
All of this lives purely in the realm of the theoretical though since the cost of actually building one would be absurd. HOWEVER, if any of you guys have a fat retirement fund and no way to spend it, I'll do the work if you pick up the tab. My guess would be $5,000 to $7,000 for the joy of being the first on your block to own one.

[The Gray Fox]

DAS:

I'm not really thinking along the lines of the absolute greatest performance from the bow and riser combo. I seriously doubt if most of us could discern the difference between the really space age riser and say one along the lines of a Martin Hatfiield. Say, now there's an idea! I'll bet the design folks at Martin could put the riser together and market it at a price most of us could afford--with whichever limb the customer wanted. Give the limbs and riser the dipped camo job that is on the new Martin Revelation and no one could tell what was under it. I'd be happy with just a nice desert tan limb with a riser that looked something like the Checkmate Hunter I or II.

On the other hand, there must be some custom bowyer out there now (or maybe Mark at Checkmate) who makes three piece bows who could make the risers with relatively few modifications.

Then, again, perhaps I'm just a nut in the minority who wants something that is totally uneconomical to produce.

[thisbucks4u]

I'm not really thinking along the lines of the absolute greatest performance from the bow and riser combo. I seriously doubt if most of us could discern the difference between the really space age riser and say one along the lines of a Martin Hatfiield.

Your really selling yourself short. Im not knocking or slighting wood risers, But Most can feel a disernable difference between both. Shoot just last week, I got good enough that I could tell the difference between a stiff metal riser and a weak one. LOL.

Guys the conversion would not be hard to do at all. Somebody send me a wood riser and Ill convert it. Just as long as y'll cover the cost of materials (probly 20 bucks) and buy me some coldies.

[DAS]

I agree with TB4U, most people on this site would know the difference hands down. A beginning archer probably wouldn't. The issue isn't so much weight because lead can be added to anything. The issue is rigidity. Wood is great stuff, but you would need a hand like Micheal Jordan's to get around a wood grip big enough to match the stiffness of a top level alloy riser.

[Bob Gordon]

...Pretty wood risers that accept Olympic limbs?? Well guys, warf did it!! Before I discovered the wonderful world of yard sale compounds to make these bows on I made a bunch of pretty nice laminated with all the spendy, pretty wood risers that accept Oly limbs. I had to make a small metal limb pocket and moulded it into the wood riser for a nice looking excellent shooting bow with all the popular woods, micarta and some actionwood. They came out pretty nice, shot well, made nice "eye candy" bows that are as fast as the ones I put together now. I used the tried and true Hoyt geometry, Hoyt style grip and modern limbs. The only down side is the cost of the exotic woods, and the amount of time to make a laminated riser, carve it down and finish it. If you guys want I have DAS coming over for the weekend and as he is some kind of a computer geek I can have him take some pictures and post them if you want to see what they look like. The other down side is that I wouldn't care to make any more, just to time consuming and you wouldn't like the price if I did any more. Sure were pretty bows though!!....warf

[scattershot]

I would like to see the pix, Bob. Thanks.

BTW, can you give me the butt dimension for an ILF limb? I have a Proline Intermediate (kid's) compound riser that i picked up, and I'd like to know if it's adaptable for a Warfer.

Thanks,
Gene

[Holmes]

...Pretty wood risers that accept Olympic limbs?? Well guys, warf did it!!....warf

Why does this not surprise me??!! :bow2:

Bob Gordon, the 'Leonardo da Vinci' of modern archery!

-Holmes

[DAS]

Bob,
You think I'm a computer geek?? :lol:

Man, you're in for a dissapointment! :)

I had forgotten that you told me about those woodies you made :sbrug:
I'd like to see one. God knows what we'll find in that basement!! You wouldn't have Hoffa down there would you?? :confused:

[James on laptop]

I have seen pictures of Bob's risers and they look very nice.I was planing on making one but I got bit by the heavy metal and see no reason for it now. :)

[Bob Gordon]

DAS...My computer skills amount to two finger typing and sending pictures to Roberto to post for me, just sent him a couple pictures of wood ILF risers. After messing with metal risers those wood ones feel like a club in the hand with the larger grip, they shot fine and were nice and quiet when shot. Give me "heavy metal" anytime. Doing those wood risers is pretty easy with basic wood working skills and the metal limb pockets are easy too, just a copy of the pockets on most Oly bows adapted to a wood riser. I always worried about the strength of the laminated risers so I screwed a padded lag bolt into a pine tree, made some steel limbs and cable "bow string" and tested my wood risers by hanging 80 lbs of concrete on the string for 20 min. only had one riser blow up but the 1/4" of bending of the riser still bothers me some. To much flex for me, I like metal....warf

[DAS]

Bob,
You would have made a hell of an engineer! Come to think of it, you ARE a hell of an engineer! :highfive:

[Papabull]

You're right, DAS. Bob IS a hell of an engineer. The secret to being a good engineer is truly understanding what it is you want to do and then setting about finding the best way to accomplish it without the limitations imposed by thinking you've got to do it like everyone else does. Do it like everyone else does and you get the same results everyone else does. That Warf feller is smarter than he looks, I'll tell you that. ;)

[the other DWS]

The best engineers are the guys who can think outside the conventional box. Who don't get hung up becuse their old professor, or their boss, says it can't be done "that way" The ones who are willing to spend the time tinkering and experimenting--pushing the limits. Sometimes it is the part time amateur backwoods tinkerer who solves the problem--simply because he didn't have enough knowledge to know he wasn't supposed to be able to do it that way (and didn;t have a posse of beabcounters telling him is wasn;t cost efective).
History is full of'em, from the first unknown guy who figured that his harp could be used to launch a miniture spear---or figured ut a way to twang out a melody on his bow---to guys like Burt Rutan, with all the Fords, Wrights, DaVincis , Deeres, Edisons etc etc inbetween.

keep tinkering
the other DWS

[DAS]

So Bull, what are saying about Bob's looks?? :lol:

Yea, the best engineers, writers, inventors were the ones that defied convention. I'll tell you, I've worked with a lot of guys with PhD's from some of the best universities. These guys can quote any theory you want to hear, or solve ridiculous differential equations. It is rare though to find someone who can actually THINK. Having that perspective, I have a lot of respect for Bob!