Who Are the Gentiles?

[Garry]

Before Solomon, the house, kingdom, or nation of Israel was under one ruler. Anyone outside of this nation was called Gentile. After David's death, Solomon’s son succeeded him on the throne over the nation of Israel. However, Solomon did not keep God's commandments therefore God took away the nation of Israel from Solomon’s son and gave it Solomon's servant Jeroboam. (1Kings 11:11-13), (1Kings 11:26).

However, God had made a perpetual covenant with David. God promised David that he would have a son or descendant ruling over at least a part of the children of Israel. Therefore, God left one tribe, the tribe of Judah, in Jerusalem under the rule of the sons of Solomon thus keeping his covenant with David (1Kings 11:26, 1Kings 11:31-37) and God gave the nation of Israel (ten tribes) to Jeroboam to rule. Jeroboam was from the tribe of Ephraim.

In the year 2006 who are the descendants of the 10 tribes of the nation of Israel that God gave to Jeroboam to rule? It seems to me that the descendants of Jeroboam are not Gentiles since these 10 tribes were not Gentiles before God gave them to Jeroboam and his descendants to rule over.

I have always thought I was a Gentile because I was not Jewish (from the tribe of Judah) but now I am not sure since I don’t know if I am a descendant of one of the 10 tribes God gave to Jeroboam.

What’s your understanding of who is Gentile and who is not in the year 2006?

[Cato]

Gary,

I have been waiting for someone more knowledgeable than I to respond.

My take has always been that an descendent of Abraham is a Jew, and all the rest of us are Gentiles.

Cato

[Garry]

Thanks Cato. This looks like it's more complicated than I ever imagined. See link below.

Who is a Jew. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_is_a_Jew%3F)

[Cato]

Gary,

Cool link. I will try to take a few minutes later in the week and plunder it a little.

Thankfully Paul makes it clear to those of us who are clearly not Jews, that what matters is circumcision of the heart. :p

CYA
Cato

[Swanny]

Hi Garry, I hope by offering a few ideas that I'm not suggesting I'm 'more knowledgeable' than Cato here - I think he started off on the right track by going back to the unconditional promises God made with Abraham - so I'll try to argue from Scriptural texts what constitues a Jew.

God said to Abram...."I will make you into a great nation..." Gen. 12:2a. Notice nation is singular which would indicate one ethnicity, one tribe, one culture group, but later on in the same verse we read: "and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you".... a plural "peoples" indicates the opposite, or many ethnicities and tribes and nations.

So the Abrahamic covenant contains different promises to different peoples which will have different fulfillments...as seen later on in Scripture. Abraham is the Father of the Jewish race. Hardly anyone disputes this as he was the first to be circumcised via God's decree... circumcision was the sign of the covenant, Gen 17:11. Every man had to undergoe circumcision in order to be part of the ethnic family of Abraham and part of the covenant people. No circumcision...no claim to be a Jew...even if you were indeed from the physical loins of Abraham...you were cut off, Gen.12:14, and considered 'heathen' [Gentile] or a 'dog'.

Abraham had two sons (or two 'seeds')...one by Hagar named Ishmael and one by Sarah named Isaac. Both were fathered by Abe, but only one was "Jewish" even though both were circumcised fourteen years apart, Gen.17:19-26, 21:4. Both were physical sons via Abraham's physical seed, but were representing two totally different ethnicities or races...all due to God's own choice. Human will was not the procuring cause of this election of lineage.

Though Isaac was a Jew, both of his seed were not Jewish...again by totally by God's decree. "The Lord said to her [Rebekah, Isaac's wife], 'Two nations are in your womb, and two peoples from within you will be separated: one people wil be stronger than the other and the older will serve the younger." Gen.25:25 compare with Rom.9:6-22. It was through Jacob, *the younger son*, that the Jewish ethnicity was kept, Gen.28:1-5.; not through the older...for Esau's loins produced the Edomites (he married Canaanite women...Gen.36:2-9.

Jacob had twelve sons from which the twelve jewish tribes of Israel came....see Numbers chapter 1. Part of your question dealt with whether or not both tribes were Jewish when the kingdom was divided after Solomon's reign. I don't see any texts that would argue otherwise....both were Jewish as both were descendants of the twelve sons of Jacob whether they were viewed as one entity of Israel, or as two entities of Israel/Northern tribes and Judah/Southern tribes.

The problem (in my small mind) of deciphering who's a Jew and who's not begins with the 'diaspora', or the capitivities when the Assyrians and Babylonians come, conquer, and haul them both away in exile...II Kings 25. We know that Christ was a Jew, THE Seed of Abraham Gen.3:16, so we know the Jewish ethnicity was purely kept through the exiles, but through whom? Obviously there had to be cases where Jewish men intermarried with foreign women and thus broke the chain of ethnic purety. I Chron. 3:17-24, and Mtt. 1 and Lk. 3 all specify that it was through the tribe of Judah that the Jewish seed remained.

I couldn't tell you about the other 11 tribes and if they maintained purety (due to my own ignorance), but even if I could I don't know how to get around the fact that during the temple's destruction in AD 70 (or is it 73?) the records that verified whether one's Jewish line remained pure were all destroyed. No one today has objective evidence whether they are a pure Jew....only speculation. But why would it really matter to someone who believes the Scriptures to be the authoritative Word of God whether he or she is physically a Jew, when the NT authors make it clear that in Christ their is neither Jew nor Gentile? Ethnicity is of no value (no value....zero, nada!) in Christ's New Covenant as it was in the Old Covenant.

"You [both Jews and Gentiles] are *all* sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For *all* of you who were baptized in to Christ *have clothed yourselves with Christ*. There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are *all one* in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, *then you [whether Jew or Gentile...who cares!] are Abraham's seed*, and heirs according to the promise." Gal. 3:26-29.

"Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called 'uncircumcised' by those [Jews] who call themselves 'the circumcision' (that done in the body by the hands of men) - remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ."

"For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. ************His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace.************, and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility." Eph. 2:11-16

Finally, Paul clearly argues elsewhere that God is not interested in who is a physical Jew, but rather, who is a spiritual Jew! "A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. *********No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is a circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code*******. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God." Rom. 2:28.

Though I'm not Jewish....I am a Jew. :) Hope I'm not adding to con-foo-sion. :)

[Cato]

Great response Swanny. I'm going to print it and reread it.

And don't ever think just because I am a moderator, I know as much or more than others. Esquire and I took great interest in this forum, and sort of got elected moderator by default, as back then we seemed to be the main guys posting out here. I love sharing and discussing our faith, but I find several guys out here who amaze me at their understanding of the faith.

Cato

[Stagmitis]

Romans 10:12

12
For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him,



Stag

[Garry]

Swanny,

The reason I asked the question is some have suggested that certain laws and commandments only apply to Jews. If this is true then it would seem important to know who are Jew and who are gentile.

Garry

[Swanny]

"some have suggested that certain laws and commandments only apply to Jews. If this is true then it would seem important to know who are Jew and who are gentile."

Hi Garry,

Do you think those (irregardless of nationality or ethnicity) who are following Christ today are part of Christ's New Covenant?

If so, could you provide me an example of what laws in His Covenant would seem to only apply to Jews (if in fact, one could verify beyond a shadow of a doubt that he or she was from the physical seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob).

I haven't always subscribed to the hermeneutic that leads one to believe that God isn't interested in a specific ethnicity (i.e. Jew) any longer, and I have unwillingly lost friendships with dear folks whom I related to before I changed in perspective.

Sadly, one of the typical hallmarks of whether one Christian will fellowship will fellowship with another Christian is this subject of whether the Jews are still God's chosen people. I know godly folks in both camps and am disheartened that this issue radically polarizes good people.

Nonetheless, I've had to really consider whether the Scriptures were intended to be interpreted via the extrabiblical (or imported) Literal-Grammatical-Historical hermeneutic (which is the sole hermeneutic used by those who keep Jew and Gentile separate in God's over-arching plan of salvation). Though I acknowledge the insistance on over emphasizing the 'literal' part seem to spring forth from a knee jerk reaction of a careless hermeneutic that spiritualized just about everything and absolved lovers of Christ from human responsibility in godliness. Darby was right about certain things for sure.

Personally, I don't think the LGH methodology ought to fill the slot as Master....it has it's strengths....I'd keep it a mistress and make a case for a hermeneutic that centers itself in Christ, not ethnicity.

Have a good evening.

[Garry]

Good morning Ken,

Yes, I think those (irregardless of nationality or ethnicity) who are following Christ today are part of Christ's New Covenant but the question I have is what are the laws God holds Christians accountable to under the New Covenant? Are the commands of Christ and the commands of his Apostles the only laws which Christians under the New Covenant are accountable for?

Are Christians under the New Covenant required to confess sins and repent or are they clean once and for all when they accept Christ and come under the New Covenant? If confession and repentance is still required under the New Covenant how does one repent if one does not know which laws they are being held accountable to by God under the New Covenant?

No, I can't provide you an example of what laws in His Covenant would seem to only apply to today's Jews. I would think that a Messianic Jew would be under the same laws as his Gentile brother and sister who have accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. The question is what laws are Christians under the New Covenant accoutable to.

Thanks,
Garry

[Swanny]

"Are the commands of Christ and the commands of his Apostles the only laws which Christians under the New Covenant are accountable for?"

"Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. To the Jews I became a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under law), so as to win those under the law. To those not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law....I do this for the sake of the Gospel...so whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God - even as I try to please everybody in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved. Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ." Excerpts from I Cor. 9 and 10 emphasis mine.

Garry, it seems clear that Paul himself considered himself out-lawed to Moses and the covenant he represented, and in-lawed to Christ and his teachings. Paul lived in what many would label as a 'swing period' ...the time of transition between the end of the Mosaic Covenant and the establishment of the New Covenant as recorded in the Acts of the Apostles. You and I live firmly planted in a couple milleniums of an ongoing New Covenant Christ established. The old has gone the new has come....

(Moses speaking:) "The Lord your God will raise up fro you a prophet like me from among your own brothers. You must listen to him." Deut. 18:15

(Peter speaking) "For Moses said, 'The Lord will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you. Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from among his people." Acts. 3:22,23

(Christ speaking) "Do not think I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them....

You have heard it was said to the people long ago [via Moses], 'Do not murder'...But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment..

You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery'. But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

It has been said, 'Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.' But I tell you ....

Again, you have hear that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not break your oath...'. But I tell you...

You have heard it was said, 'Eye for an eye, and tooth for a tooth'. But I tell you....

You have heard it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you.... " Excerpts from Matt.5

The purpose of the law and the prophets was anticipatory....it pointed to the fruition found only in the Messiah and His Gospel. Christ is the rightful Lord and Lawgiver as noted by his use of the contrast 'BUT I SAY...'. He ups the anty and raises the standard from outward to internal where an indwelling Pedagogue (the Holy Spirit) reigns and can judge and convict, unlike in times of old.

"Jesus has been found worthy of greater honor than Moses, just as the builder of a house has greater honor than the house itself...Moses was faithful as a servant in all God's house, *testifying to what would be said in the future*. But Christ is faithful as a son over God's house. And we are his house [not Moses' house], if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast." Heb. 3:3-6

Notice the contrasting 'but' again? I think you are asking a great question that has very real consequences.

You also asked: "Are Christians under the New Covenant required to confess sins and repent or are they clean once and for all when they accept Christ and come under the New Covenant?"

Both according to Heb. 10:14 "because by one sacrifice he has made [past tense] perfect forever those who are being made [present tense] holy"

And I Jn. 1:9 "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness."

"If confession and repentance is still required under the New Covenant how does one repent if one does not know which laws they are being held accountable to by God under the New Covenant?"

Legitimate conclusion in my mind as well. It behooves us to get to know this Christ as Lord, as Prophet, and as Priest if we are to live in the realm of Sovereign Joy the Lord places us in.

If I remember correctly you asked this same question not too long ago. I do pray the Spirit of Grace will enlighten and give wisdom in your search.


Galatians 4:21-31:

21Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? 22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. 23His son by the slave woman was born in the ordinary way; but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a promise.
24These things may be taken figuratively, for the women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. 27For it is written:
"Be glad, O barren woman,
who bears no children;
break forth and cry aloud,
you who have no labor pains;
because more are the children of the desolate woman
than of her who has a husband."[a]

28Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29At that time the son born in the ordinary way persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. 30But what does the Scripture say? "Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman's son." [B]31Therefore, brothers, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.

[Garry]

Thanks Ken.