The Nature of God/Jesus and sin?

[Matt]

I have to admit, being born and raised LDS I'm not very familier with other peoples beleifs of Jesus Christ. I've never taken the oportunity to learn either, but I'm going to now. I've already asked WildmanSC this in a private conversation we're having but I'd like to hear everybody's beleifs. The questions I'm going to ask are strictly to learn. I'm not going to argue Theology. I really want to understand your view point.

Repentance: After you commit a sin and repent. If you commit the sin you repented for again; were you forgiven the first time? Or once you recomit a sin, is it like you were never forgiven for it the first time?

Born Again: When you are born again, and accept Jesus as your savior, what is the attitude toward sin? Do you strive not to commit sin anymore? I heard a Christian (I don't know what faith) use the term "free grace" or "cheap grace". I can't remember which term he used, but it was frowned upon. It seemed to me it was a person who accepted Jesus Christ as his/her savior then just kept living his/her life however they wanted to.

God the Father/God the Son: If Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ are not seperate. Then who was Jesus praying to in the Garden and who did he cry to on the cross? This is the biggest one I don't understand. So if you only have time to answer one then answer this one.

[Camp Cook]

Matt,

What a great idea and you have picked some very good topics to start with. We can learn from each other's differences.

I don't have time to reply to any of them at the moment cause I am already late getting ready for work. & I will be out of town this weekend at a Pheasants Forever Kids day. We run the archery range. Just found out they have over 400 kids registered. I will be sooooo tired this time tomorrow nite :) I am sure others well respond in the mean time.

Looking forward to the discussion.

God Bless.

JOY :)

[Esquire]

Matt,

The Christian view of God is that he is trinitarian in nature, for all time. Meaning that the nature that he possesses, he has always possessed, and there was never a time that he is other than he is now. Here is my best shot at explaining that, which also goes to answering your question.

The word "Trinity" is a combination of 2 words, tri and unity. There are 3 basic concepts to remember: (1) there is one eternal God; (2) God is the Father and the Son (Jesus) and the Holy Spirit; (3) the Father; the Son, and the Holy Spirit are 3 distinct persons who exist at the same time.

We believe the Triune God is the Father, the Son and The Holy Spirit. (Matthew 28:19 - 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,).

God is the Father - There is a person called the Father who is also called God - (2 peter 1:17 - 17For he... [Jesus] received honor and glory from God the Father)

And the Son - There is a person called the Son, or Jesus, who is also called God - The apostle Thomas, after seeing the resurrected Jesus, said to him, "My Lord and My God!" (John 20:28)

And the Holy Spirit - There is a person called the Holy Spirit, who is also equated with God - In Acts 5:3-4 the Apostle Peter rebukes a man named Ananias, saying that he has lied to the Holy Spirit. Peter then continues his rebuke: "You have not lied to men, but to God." So lying to the Holy Spirit is the same as lying to God.

The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are 3 distinct persons - personal beings who possess will, intelligence, and emotion - who exist at the same time. The Father is not the Son, the Father is not the Holy Spirit, and the Son is not the Holy Spirit. Each one has an identity, although the 3 are in complete and perfect unity as the one God.

There are many examples in the bible of the distinction of the persons. At Jesus baptism the Father and the Holy Spirit are present. The Spirit of God descends like a dove, and the Father says, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." (Matthew 3:17).

This triune reality of God is hard to understand completely, because God is infinite and we are finite. Over the centuries, some attempts to explain and understand the triune nature of God have lead many away from Christian orthodoxy (right thinking about God) into heresy (wrong thinking about God). A couple of heresies are worth knowing about, because, for one thing, they help clarify the issue.

A COUPLE OF HERESIES:

Some said (and say) that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not God. For example they may say that Jesus is the Son of God, but not God himself; and the Holy Spirit is not God, but is rather a force that God uses to accomplish the divine will.

Others said (and say) that there is but one person in the Godhead, and that God acts in certain modes at certain times, so that He is sometimes acting as God, another time acting as the Son or the Holy Spirit. [This heresy is called Modalism].

These are heresies because they contradict scripture.

IN CLOSING

These are not my original toughts on this subject. This brief outline is one of basic Christian Orthodoxy. Others have done the real hard work. My acceptance of these basic tenets is based upon my own study of the bible. In this post I have leaned heavily upon the book "christian faith 101" by Dr. Steven Tsoukalis, which organizes the various scriptures in a very helpful manner.

IN FURTHER ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION

Matt,

God the Father and God the Son are distinct persons, sharing the same essence. That is why they are able to have a conversation. That is why they have co-existed simultaneously from all eternity in intimate relationship with each other and the Holy Spirit. That is why the nature of God is so essentially a loving nature. That is why we, who are made in God's image, are made for relationship, both with God himself, in the marriage context and in the context of christian fellowship.


Mike

[Bill McNeal]

Matt, you already know my views on Mormonism, and I have also expressed my views about you. However I will try and answer your questions.

The first, and most important thing that EVERY Christian MUST realize is the the Wisdom of God, the Holy Bible, ie Scriptures were written only for the Chosen of God to understand. Paul tells us this clearly in the Second Chapter of His letter to Corinth. Without the "Mind of Christ" Bible Scripture will simply seem like a hodge podge of conflicting stories. In reality the Bible is in effect a huge parable written on for the Elect to grasp, and follow. However, that does not mean that there is not growing stages in a Christians life.

Also, time served as a Christian does not equate with vaster knowledge. There are old Christians who still drink Spiritual milk, while some young Christians devour the meat of the Gospel. This simply depenDS upon Gods call, and purpose for His people.

Now, before we can even begin to try and ad "minister" the Gospel to someone that God has placed before us we must point out who God is. God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Three images of the Same God. Thes images are not "persons", or "people", but simply the images of One LORD , used by Him to achieve His Purpose, and that Purpose is to Glorify Himself. So, when you ask who was Jesus praying to in the garden, the answer is very clear. Jesus, the image of God, was praying to Father, the image of God. Both are one, for Jesus says, "I and the Father are One"

Armed with this understanding, we must now be responsive to the fact that no man change his heart without the Work of Jesus {God} on the Cross. No man can , by deed, or action declare righteousness by adherence to the law, or by his will {Romans 9:16}. Man can bring nothing. All men are condemned to Hell, born of a curse. It is Jesus Christ, the First Begotten of the Dead who carried the yoke of our filth, and sin into the bowels of Evil, to have the Fire Purify it so that the Yoke He brought out of death for His Children to carry is a lofty, and clean, and light Yoke, the Yoke of Faith, Hope, and Love. He became a curse for us, so that we who were Called before Creation could become the vessels of the fulfilment of the Scriptures given to all who call upon His Name.

It is THEN, and only THEN that we begin to see the mystery unfold, and the bells, and whistles go off, for we are now free to rest in the Cleft of the Rock, and focus upon what He has done for our Salvation, rather than what we are going to do for it.

Lets us now ponder "repentance"

Repentance actually has two distinctions. There is the repentance of sin at the time of Salvation, and the the repentance of fleshly acts during a Christians earthly life. Repentance at Salvation is the acknowlegdment of the person granted Mercy that they are not deserving of it, that their sins are massive, and that it is Jesus who cleansed them. Every TRUE Christian, upon recieving Mercy will utter this, not word for word of course, but you get the picture.

As for the repentance of sins in a Christians daily life. Paul tells us in Scripture that the Christian is at war. The Spirit of Jesus Christ that Dwells within the Christian is under attack from his carnal flesh {pride, anger, arrogance, pervertion, ...}, which is being controlled by the lord of of air {Satan}.

The same convicting Power that allowed the Christian to confess his sins, and Repent of them at the time of His Salvation, is the VERY SAME Power that allows him, or her to confess, and repent of the sins committed by his flesh!!! You see, the man without the Spirit does not accept that he is a bad person, or a sinner. One of the classic comments of the unsaved is......."I am a good person"........Nothing is further from the truth. We are bad people. We are made "good" by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit which allows us to purge our fleshly sins, by confessing them to Him.

As for "Born again"..........This simply refers to the dieing off of the old person, and the raising up with Christ, out of that death, into a new life that no longer focuses on worldly goals, but rather on Kingdom issues.

Shalom!

[WildmanSC]

I have to admit, being born and raised LDS I'm not very familier with other peoples beleifs of Jesus Christ. I've never taken the oportunity to learn either, but I'm going to now. I've already asked WildmanSC this in a private conversation we're having but I'd like to hear everybody's beleifs. The questions I'm going to ask are strictly to learn. I'm not going to argue Theology. I really want to understand your view point.

Repentance: After you commit a sin and repent. If you commit the sin you repented for again; were you forgiven the first time? Or once you recomit a sin, is it like you were never forgiven for it the first time?

Born Again: When you are born again, and accept Jesus as your savior, what is the attitude toward sin? Do you strive not to commit sin anymore? I heard a Christian (I don't know what faith) use the term "free grace" or "cheap grace". I can't remember which term he used, but it was frowned upon. It seemed to me it was a person who accepted Jesus Christ as his/her savior then just kept living his/her life however they wanted to.

God the Father/God the Son: If Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ are not seperate. Then who was Jesus praying to in the Garden and who did he cry to on the cross? This is the biggest one I don't understand. So if you only have time to answer one then answer this one.


Matt,

I have not yet responded to your last email. I will respond to most of it here, since most of your questions are included here.

"Repentance: After you commit a sin and repent. If you commit the sin you repented for again; were you forgiven the first time? Or once you recomit a sin, is it like you were never forgiven for it the first time?"

A lost person must repent of their sins for the remission or forgiveness of sins. At that time the precious blood of Christ washes away all prior sins and covers all future sins. What that means is that positionally in Christ, God the Father sees us as spotless, sinless and holy. That is becauses He sees us through the blood of Christ which cleanses from ALL unrighteousness. On the other hand, possesionally, Christ and the Holy Spirit sees the daily sins we commit. It is essential that we daily die to the flesh, repent of our sins and nail the flesh on the cross. It is only by the convicting power of the Holy Spirit that we are able to repent of our sins for salvation, and likewise it is only by remaining sensitive to the convicting power of the Holy Spirit that we can repent of the daily sin in our Christian lives. If we fail to remain sensitive, we will become carnal and will be in danger of quenching the convicting power of the Holy Spirit.

"Born Again: When you are born again, and accept Jesus as your savior, what is the attitude toward sin? Do you strive not to commit sin anymore? I heard a Christian (I don't know what faith) use the term "free grace" or "cheap grace". I can't remember which term he used, but it was frowned upon. It seemed to me it was a person who accepted Jesus Christ as his/her savior then just kept living his/her life however they wanted to."

Being Born Again is the action of the Holy Spirit to bring life to our dead spirit at the point of salvation. We are then able to commune in the spirit with the indwelling Holy Spirit. However, as noted above, if we fail to remain sensitive to the convicting power of the Holy Spirit, become carnal and harden our hearts we will be in danger of quenching the Holy Spirit. We will no longer be sensitive to sin, will look upon ourselves as doing right, albeit in our own eyes, and fall out of fellowship with our Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ. Once we are saved, Satan's demons will start a spiritual warfare within our flesh, our sin nature, and endeavor to attract our thought life, our eyes, our flesh to the things the Bible commands us not to do as Christians. It is only by the power of the Holy Spirit, the blood of the Lamb and remaining in the Word and in close fellowship with the Lord that HE can win the victory in that never ending battle. The battle will continue until the day we die.

"God the Father/God the Son: If Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ are not seperate. Then who was Jesus praying to in the Garden and who did he cry to on the cross? This is the biggest one I don't understand. So if you only have time to answer one then answer this one."

Matt,

Our finiteness puts obstacles in our paths to understanding the infiniteness, the Omniscience, Omnipotence and Omnipresence of God. God is presented to us in three personages, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. We see them at separate and distinct times, and we see them all at the same time, i.e., after the baptism of Christ by John the Baptist. But although they are three, they are three in one.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

This passage points out their distinctness.

I John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

This passage points out their distinctness "...there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost:..." while at the same time pointing out they are one "...and these three are one." Lest anyone be confused, the Word is the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.

The three in one doctrine is known as the Trinity or the Triune Godhead. They are distinctly three, yet they are one and they all have the same characteristics of Omniscience, Omnipotence, Omnipresence, holiness, love, mercy, grace, being long suffering, and all of the other characteristics of God that I cannot at this time come up with off the top of my head, but I know they all share!

Selah

Bill Lamb

[Matt]

Esquire and Bill Lamb,

Those were great posts. And, as I understood them, I agree 100%.

[Esquire]

Matt,

I take that to be a good thing, my friend. Some Mormons I know would not be able to agree with what I posted, because it is so fundamentally different from what the Mormon church teaches about who God and Jesus is.

Mike
(BTW, I will be :shooting: a 3D course this weekend. I'll report back on the other thread.)

[Matt]

Actually, if I understood it right, it's almost exactly what the Mormon Church teaches. We have theological differences, of course, but I don't think I know a Mormon that would disagree with you.

After othe Bible (the King James Version), we have a section called the Bible Dictionary. And that's what it is a Dictionary.

If you look up God in the Bible Dictionary it starts with this, God: The supreme Governor of the universe and the Father of mankind. We learn from the revelations that have been given that there are three separate persons in the Godhead: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.

If you look up Holy Ghost you Get, Holy Ghost: The third member of the Godhead and, as the name implies, a personage of Spirit, not possessing a body of flesh and bones.

So how could I possibly disagree with you? I think the Mormons you know were missing something. Or me and my whole ward are missing something. :highfive:

[Esquire]

Matt,

I think I see what you mean. I was thinking that the Mormon teaching is that God was once a man who became [a] God, just as a Mormon might someday become a god under certain conditions.

I was also thinking that the Mormon teaching on Jesus is that Jesus is God's "spirit child", in the same way that we all are, and that his trip to earth was the result of a physical union between Mary and God.

Given these teachings (which I was thinking of when I posted): The Mormon Jesus [who is God's spirit child (the Mormon god who was once a man) along with all of us], is not and cannot be the Jesus of Orthodox Christianity, who was with God [Yahweh of the Christian faith, who was never a man] and who is God from the very beginning and never was begotten because there never has been a time when he did not exist.

I thought you were saying you agreed with me about who God is and who Jesus is. :mistake:

I think I'm with you now. I agree with you that the Mormon's I know share a common set of terms, or that we have certain words in common. Here's the trouble - we frequently have different definitions for those terms! And that's where things get tricky!

Mike

[Matt]

I'm confused. It's true we do teach the God walked as a man once and has a body of flesh and blood (and that this is a big difference in Theology for sure). He also is the Father of Jesus. But we don't teach that God and Mary had a physical union to Create Jesus. She became pregnant, somehow, through the power of the Holy Ghost. However, Jesus is God. He is the Jehovah spoken of in the Old testement and he created the Heavens and the Earth.

Also, as I understand it, Jesus created Man's physical bodies and all the animals, well everything on the planet. But God the Father also created all things because his will is done through Jesus.

[Matt]

I see I'm missing something about your Theology. Be patient I'm trying to grasp it.

You don't beleive that Jesus is God's actual Son then?

[Esquire]

Matt,

Doesn't the Mormon faith teach that Jesus became God through the Spirit Child Stage? That he was the 1st Spirit Child born to Elohim and his goddess wife?

I agree with you that the idea tha God was once a man is a huge difference. The KJV of the Bible says, in Psalms 90:2 “from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.”

The idea that we can become gods ourselves is also a big difference. I grew up on the KJV, and it says in Isaiah 43:10, “Before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.” This scripture contradicts the teaching of former Mormon leader Lorenzo Snow, who said, “As man now is, God once was: as God now is, man may be.”

As to Jesus being God's son, we do not believe that God the Son was begotten in the sense that he was created. He is fuly God in essence, and always existed from eternity.

As John 1:1 attests: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” Before the creation of all things the Word (preincarnate Jesus) eternally “was”! The Word eternally was with the Father, and the Word himself eternally was God by nature.

I hope this helps explain a little about what I mean when I refer to our using the same words but attributing very different meanings to those words.

Mike

[Matt]

It does explain a lot. But we're into Theology, as far as the Mormon side goes, that I don' t completely grasp.

I'm not sure how everything was formed from nothingess. I know that we also beleive that Jesus was also been since the beginning. We're also taught that God was the beginning, but somehow he also walked as a man. So he knows what we go through in our human condition. I guess he made himself a man. But I don't think the Father has any creator above him because he was the creator. Somehow Jesus is his first born but he has also been since the beginning. I've heard theory's on why this is, but nothing doctrine. There's no way for me to give you a solid answer on that.

As far as what I know what is our doctrine is that we were spirit before we were Mortal. We did have Sprit mothers. Jesus was Heavenly Fathers first born, but they both have always been. It's not taught how people only theorize. But Jesus is God as the Father is God. Ones will is the others will. All things go trough Jesus, were made through Jesus, and have to return through Jesus.

It's also true that we beleive that those who lived worthy lives get to have their own spirit children and populate their own Earths. God and Jesus, however, are not replaced. This is another subject that I don't have extensive knowledge on or one that there is very much dotrine about. You probably know as much about it as me. There isn't much more said about it.

To be honest though I really don't think about the pre-mortal or the post mortal often, if at all. I'm more concerned about what I'm doing now. I just try to live the best I can.

I see your side of the coin. I also surley see why some of our Doctrine would upset others. I won't lie to you, I've questioned my faith before. There's somethings I don't grasp and others that I'm not wholy comforatble with. But there are other things that I find truly wonderful and that I feel are totally true. I try to live my life as Jesus lived his and hope the answers to my questions come as I ask the Lord for help and live faithfuly as he did.

[WildmanSC]

It does explain a lot. But we're into Theology, as far as the Mormon side goes, that I don' t completely grasp.

I'm not sure how everything was formed from nothingess. I know that we also beleive that Jesus was also been since the beginning. We're also taught that God was the beginning, but somehow he also walked as a man. So he knows what we go through in our human condition. I guess he made himself a man. But I don't think the Father has any creator above him because he was the creator. Somehow Jesus is his first born but he has also been since the beginning. I've heard theory's on why this is, but nothing doctrine. There's no way for me to give you a solid answer on that.

As far as what I know what is our doctrine is that we were spirit before we were Mortal. We did have Sprit mothers. Jesus was Heavenly Fathers first born, but they both have always been. It's not taught how people only theorize. But Jesus is God as the Father is God. Ones will is the others will. All things go trough Jesus, were made through Jesus, and have to return through Jesus.

It's also true that we beleive that those who lived worthy lives get to have their own spirit children and populate their own Earths. God and Jesus, however, are not replaced. This is another subject that I don't have extensive knowledge on or one that there is very much dotrine about. You probably know as much about it as me. There isn't much more said about it.

To be honest though I really don't think about the pre-mortal or the post mortal often, if at all. I'm more concerned about what I'm doing now. I just try to live the best I can.

I see your side of the coin. I also surley see why some of our Doctrine would upset others. I won't lie to you, I've questioned my faith before. There's somethings I don't grasp and others that I'm not wholy comforatble with. But there are other things that I find truly wonderful and that I feel are totally true. I try to live my life as Jesus lived his and hope the answers to my questions come as I ask the Lord for help and live faithfuly as he did.

"We're also taught that God was the beginning, but somehow he also walked as a man."

Matt,

The thing that I think is tripping you up is the fact that Jesus IS God, He WAS God and was with God before the creation. And because He has the same characteristic of Omniscience as God the Father, He is all knowing and He knew before the creation that He was going to come to earth in the form of man, because the first man, Adam would fall in sin. The God that walked as man, was Jesus Christ, the Son.

Bill Lamb

[Bill McNeal]

I'm confused. It's true we do teach the God walked as a man once and has a body of flesh and blood (and that this is a big difference in Theology for sure). He also is the Father of Jesus. But we don't teach that God and Mary had a physical union to Create Jesus. She became pregnant, somehow, through the power of the Holy Ghost. However, Jesus is God. He is the Jehovah spoken of in the Old testement and he created the Heavens and the Earth.

Also, as I understand it, Jesus created Man's physical bodies and all the animals, well everything on the planet. But God the Father also created all things because his will is done through Jesus.

Matt, here are some other teachings from mormonism that folks reading along may be interested in............

"""""We believe in a God who is Himself progressive, whose majesty is intelligence; whose perfection consists in eternal advancement -- a Being who has attained His exalted state by a path which now His children are permitted to follow, whose glory it is their heritage to share. In spite of the opposition of the sects, in the face of direct charges of blasphemy, the Church proclaims the eternal truth: 'As man is, God once was; as God is, man may be.'" (LDS Apostle James E. Talmage, Articles of Faith, Ch.24, p.430 - p.431, LDS Collectors Library '97 CD-ROM)


" 'It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God,' the inspired word continues, 'and to know that we may converse with Him as one man converses with another, and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did.' The Father is a glorified, perfected, resurrected, exalted man who worked out his salvation by obedience to the same laws he has given to us so that we may do the same." (LDS Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, A New Witness for the Articles of Faith, p.64, LDS Collectors Library '97 CD-ROM)


"Thus, on this beautiful spring morning in the Sacred Grove, Joseph Smith witnessed the renewal of God's dealing with his children in accordance with the great gospel plan of redemption. Upon this occasion God the Father and his Beloved Son Jesus Christ appearing as glorified Resurrected Beings unto a chosen servant of God, made known once again the state of immortality which man will attain in preparation for the next estate of eternity; that also the world once again could know the reality of the personal nature of God the Father and his Beloved Son. (LDS Apostle Alvin R. Dyer, Conference Report, April 1963, p.49 - p.50, LDS Collectors Library '97 CD-ROM)


"As we stretch our imaginations to absorb the limitlessness of the creations of God we turn to a favorite song: If you could hie to Kolob in the twinkling of an eye, And then continue onward with that same speed to fly, D'ye think that you could ever, through all eternity, Find out the generation where Gods began to be? Or see the grand beginning, where space did not extend? Or view the last creation where Gods and matter end? Methinks the Spirit whispers, "No man has found 'pure space,'" Nor seen the outside curtains, where nothing has a place. The works of God continue, and worlds and lives abound; Improvement and progression have one eternal round. There is no end to matter; there is no end to space; There is no end to spirit; there is no end to race." (LDS Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p.250, LDS Collectors Library '97 CD-ROM)

"God: Creator And Ruler Of Many Worlds. -- While it is true that evolutionists may be divided between theistic and atheistic groups, yet most of those professing belief in God consider him to be an indefinable force, essence, or power of an incomprehensible nature. According to revelation, however, he is a personal Being, a holy and exalted Man, a glorified, resurrected Personage having a tangible body of flesh and bones, an anthropomorphic Entity, the personal Father of the spirits of all men. (D. & C. 130:22- 23; Moses 6:51, 57; Abra. 3:22-24; Jos. Smith 2:16-19.)"


"We are members of the family of the Eternal Father. He is a glorified and exalted and eternal Being, having a resurrected body of flesh and bones. His name is God, and the kind of life he lives is God's life. His name is also Eternal, and the name of the kind of life he lives is eternal life. Eternal life is God's life, and God's life is eternal life. We are commanded to be perfect as he is perfect and to advance and progress until we become like him, or in other words, until we gain eternal life. Thus Joseph Smith said, "You have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power." (Teachings, pp. 346-47.) Christ our Lord has so obtained, thus enabling him to say to the faithful: "Ye shall be even as I am, and I am even as the Father." (3 Ne. 28:10.)" (LDS Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, The Mortal Messiah, Vol.1, p.23 - p.24, LDS Collectors Library '97 CD-ROM)


"I will prove that the world is wrong, by showing what God is. I am going to inquire after God; for I want you all to know Him, and to be familiar with Him; and if I am bringing you to a knowledge of Him, all persecutions against me ought to cease. You will then know that I am His servant; for I speak as one having authority. ... "I will go back to the beginning before the world was, to show what kind of a being God is. What sort of a being was God in the beginning? Open your ears and hear, all ye ends of the earth. for I am going to prove it to you by the Bible, and to tell you the designs of God in relation to the human race, and why He interferes with the affairs of man. ... "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by His power, was to make himself visible,--I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form--like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with Him, as one man talks and communes with another. ... "In order to understand the subject of the dead, for consolation of those who mourn for the loss of their friends, it is necessary we should understand the character and being of God and how He came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see. ... "These are incomprehensible ideas to some, but they are simple. It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, and to know that we may converse with Him as one man converses with another, and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; and I will show it from the Bible. ... "I wish I was in a suitable place to tell it, and that I had the trump of an archangel, so that I could tell the story in such a manner that persecution would cease forever. What did Jesus say? (Mark it, Elder Rigdon!) The scriptures inform us that Jesus said, as the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the Son power--to do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious--in a manner to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again. Do you believe it? If you do not believe it you do not believe the Bible. The scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom and all the combined powers of earth and hell together to refute it. Here, then, is eternal life--to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings. and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power. And I want you to know that God, in the last days, while certain individuals are proclaiming His name, is not trifling with you or me." (LDS President Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Vol.6, Ch.14, p.305-6, LDS Collectors Library '97 CD-ROM)



continued

[Bill McNeal]

Intelligent beings are organized to become Gods, even the Sons of God, to dwell in the presence of the Gods, and become associated with the highest intelligences that dwell in eternity. We are now in the school, and must practice upon what we receive." (LDS President Brigham Young, Discourses of Brigham Young, p.245, LDS Collectors Library '97 CD-ROM)


"This was the calling of Joseph Smith. He taught anew that God was in the form of man; that man was made in the image of God; and he taught the principles of justice, mercy, charity, and forgiveness. ... He taught the truths that the Prophets before him had taught; and he went beyond them. ... Joseph Smith taught men to look up to heaven and conceive of a God in the form of man. He taught them that they could become like their Father and God, who was 'an exalted Man.' And what is more simple and reasonable? Don't you parents expect your children to become like you? Or do you expect your children to be something else than men and women? No. You men will see your sons become men; you women will see your daughters become women. Then God our Father--yes, and our Mother--in heaven, looking down upon this world-- this school house in which their children are being educated--expect, and Joseph Smith taught it as a truth, that their children will be exalted, if they pursue the proper course, until they shall become divine beings themselves, worthy to stand upon that plane where stand their Father and their Mother in heaven. Like begets like; and the principle of eternal progress will make of man a God. (LDS Apostle Orson F. Whitney, Collected Discourses, Vol.5, May 8, 1898, LDS Collectors Library '97 CD-ROM)"""

[Matt]

Esquire and Bill L,

I really like, and I'm very impressed, by the pure love of Christ you and some others possess. I feel I love him too, but you inspire me to look deeper. Which is what I'm going to do, thoughtfuly and prayerfuly.

I've gotten a greater understanding and appreciation about your beleifs through this thread. I had some misconseptions about your beleifs. Thanks for sharing your thoughts with me.

Now I imagine I'll be a Mormon till I die, but I'm going to really focus on the Gospels and teaching of Jesus and see if I can't improve some things I feel I lack. Thanks fellas :highfive:

[larry]

Matt,

can you tell me if you believe in a literal heaven and hell? and if not, why not?and if yes, how do you get there? just curiouse about your beliefs.

larry

[Matt]

Well Yes, there is a heaven and a hell in LDS theology. But it's not your traditional Heaven and Hell.

We beleive there are three kingdoms in Heaven. People who enter into the everlasting covenant of eternal marriage and live worth of it can gain the 1st. Good Honorable people of the world gain the 2nd. The murderers, theifs, people in sexual sin, gain the 3rd. They differ in their degree of Glory.

We don't beleive Hell is a lake of fire and brimstone but a total and complete realization of the truth and ones guilt. That's a generic way of putting it. They best way I could explain it is remember the time when you felt most ashamed, guilty, and dirty then multiply that by infinity. That's how you would feel if you die in your sins.

Outer Darknes is the worst. It's the place where Satan, his angels, and the sons of perdition go. It's the total absence of Gods light. It's worse than anything that can be imagined. 99.9% of humamity will not go there. Everybody else will gain some degree of glory. But if you die in your sins you will also expierence hell. Not fire and brimstone hell, but complete realization of your sins hell.

This is probably can of worms. But that's your answer Larry. I could go deeper into it, but that'd take too long and I'm tired. I'll see you guys later. Have a great weekend.

[WildmanSC]

Well Yes, there is a heaven and a hell in LDS theology. But it's not your traditional Heaven and Hell.

We beleive there are three kingdoms in Heaven. People who enter into the everlasting covenant of eternal marriage and live worth of it can gain the 1st. Good Honorable people of the world gain the 2nd. The murderers, theifs, people in sexual sin, gain the 3rd. They differ in their degree of Glory.

We don't beleive Hell is a lake of fire and brimstone but a total and complete realization of the truth and ones guilt. That's a generic way of putting it. They best way I could explain it is remember the time when you felt most ashamed, guilty, and dirty then multiply that by infinity. That's how you would feel if you die in your sins.

Outer Darknes is the worst. It's the place where Satan, his angels, and the sons of perdition go. It's the total absence of Gods light. It's worse than anything that can be imagined. 99.9% of humamity will not go there. Everybody else will gain some degree of glory. But if you die in your sins you will also expierence hell. Not fire and brimstone hell, but complete realization of your sins hell.

This is probably can of worms. But that's your answer Larry. I could go deeper into it, but that'd take too long and I'm tired. I'll see you guys later. Have a great weekend.

Matt,

There are some major problems with the LDS theology. It is in direct conflict with the Holy Bible. For example,

"We beleive there are three kingdoms in Heaven. People who enter into the everlasting covenant of eternal marriage and live worth of it can gain the 1st."

To begin with, there is only one Heaven. And additionally, we cannot possibly live worthily of entering Heaven. It is only by God's mercy and grace that we can be born gain, and we can enter Heaven ONLY IF we are born again.

"Good Honorable people of the world gain the 2nd."

Once again, your theology says "...good honorable people of the world gain the 2nd kingdom of Heaven." To begin with, there is not a 2nd kingdom and additionally, good honorable people of the world who have not been born again will be condemned just as will those who are "The murderers, theifs, people in sexual sin, gain the 3rd. They differ in their degree of Glory."

There is no glory for humanity. Their is only glory for and to God. You in essence are saying all human beings will go to some level of Heaven and receive glory. That fails the test of the mirror of God's Word.

You also said "We don't beleive Hell is a lake of fire and brimstone but a total and complete realization of the truth and ones guilt. Outer Darknes is the worst. It's the place where Satan, his angels, and the sons of perdition go. It's the total absence of Gods light. It's worse than anything that can be imagined. 99.9% of humamity will not go there."

Once again, these statements are unscriptural. The Holy Bible makes it very clear that at the Great White Throne Judgement, those who died without having been born again, and those still living when Christ returns to call out His Bride, the Church, will be judged for their works and will be found lacking and they will be cast into the Lake of Fire, or Hell, along with Satan and his demons.

Matt,

You told me earlier today that you believed in the KJV Bible, that you understood the NT, but had difficulty with the OT. You need to read the NT a little closer, and you will see that there is one Heaven, there is a literal Hell, and probably at least half of humanity, if not more, will be cast into the Lake of Fire/Hell.

Bill

[Bill McNeal]

Matt said.....


"""Well Yes, there is a heaven and a hell in LDS theology. But it's not your traditional Heaven and Hell."""

Nor is it traditional to suggest that Jesus is a brother of Lucifer, or that He engaged in sexual intercourse, but the mormomites have done that

Matt also said........

""""We beleive there are three kingdoms in Heaven.""""

Yes, but your beliefs are outranked by Gods Scriptures.........

***Ephesians 5:5
For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.***

***Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.***

***And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:***

***And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.***

Brothers, be not decieved by ravenous wolves. There is but One Kingdom, for "a kingdom divided cannot stand." There is One Kingdom which the Elect are given as an eternal Home. Gods Word does not call His Kingdom, "kingdoms". This is the false teaching of men who will return to ingest their own vomit.





Matt also said...........

"""We don't beleive Hell is a lake of fire and brimstone but a total and complete realization of the truth and ones guilt. That's a generic way of putting it. They best way I could explain it is remember the time when you felt most ashamed, guilty, and dirty then multiply that by infinity. That's how you would feel if you die in your sins."""

As always, Gods Word Reigns Supreme over the lies of men.........

***it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:***

Beloved, we must remember that the Evil will send out his henchmen to *try* and mislead the flock. The old beast will introduce faleness, and lies; hustleing them of as the truth. He will *try* and sell himself as one of you. This is why some are given to be shepherds. It is my prayer that all who are shepherds will arise, and meet the beast on his chosen field, and defeat him. For let us NOT forget, that OUR God, the God of PEACE, will soon CRUSH that dastardly beast beneath OUR feet!!!

Stay the course Brothers. Focus on Christ. Stay fixed upon pleasing Him, and not men. It is a rigorous endevour, but nothing will be more gratifying!!!

In Love.......

Shalom!

[George Tsoukalas]

Matt, we do not believe that the Trinity consists of 3 separate Gods. There is only 1 God of the universe (Is 43:10). Bill L and Esquire did a brilliant job of explaining that to you. I'm not doing that again. You seem to refer to Jesus and the Father as separate and distinct Gods. No they are one. (Jn 10:20).If you, look at John 1:1 which says, " In the beginning was the Word" That means there NEVER was a time when the Word was not God. The Word did not "become" God . He was Always God. He was not created in any way shape or form. As a side note you may want to look further into the fashion in which the Mormon Church believes the way Jesus was created by a union between Mary and Eloim."and the Word was with God and the Word was God". Remember there can only be 1 God according to Isaiah. In John 1:14, "the Word became flesh and dwelt among us." The Word is the preincarnate Jesus and He existed from all time. Also, I can never become a god of any planet because there can only be 1 God. Esquire, explained to you that the Holy Spirit is referred to as God in Acts 5:3 and 5:5. I think it is great that you are reaching out. Jawge

[Bill McNeal]

Matt, we do not believe that the Trinity consists of 3 separate Gods. There is only 1 God of the universe (Is 43:10). Bill L and Esquire did a brilliant job of explaining that to you. I'm not doing that again. You seem to refer to Jesus and the Father as separate and distinct Gods. No they are one. (Jn 10:20).If you, look at John 1:1 which says, " In the beginning was the Word" That means there NEVER was a time when the Word was not God. The Word did not "become" God . He was Always God. He was not created in any way shape or form. As a side note you may want to look further into the fashion in which the Mormon Church believes the way Jesus was created by a union between Mary and Eloim."and the Word was with God and the Word was God". Remember there can only be 1 God according to Isaiah. In John 1:14, "the Word became flesh and dwelt among us." The Word is the preincarnate Jesus and He existed from all time. Also, I can never become a god of any planet because there can only be 1 God. Esquire, explained to you that the Holy Spirit is referred to as God in Acts 5:3 and 5:5. I think it is great that you are reaching out. Jawge


George my friend, when you profess your "3 person" doctrine, it leaves you little room to rebuke Matt. In your ignorance {innocent I may add}, you yourself create 3 seperate Gods of the One LORD God, and in effect do the same thing Matt does. You need to understand the "Images" of God, before you can lay claim to understanding Who God is. I will give you partial credit because you DO profess that God is One, but then sadly you undo all your good teaching, by throwing in the Roman Catholic "3 persons" nonsense.

It is my prayer that you, and Matt, and alot of other folks lose your traditional teachings of men, and drop the doctrines, and embrace the Scriptures.

Shalom!

[larry]

Matt,

How does one enter into this first heaven? the reason I'm asking is because you asked about the nature of God, Christ, and sin. I'm trying to understand your concept of sin.

larry

[Esquire]

Matt,

I've enjoyed discussing this with you. I had limited time to post yesterday.

There was a time in my life when I was really searching for truth among various religions. Among those I studied up a bit on Mormonism. Most of the Mormons I have known are great folks, just top notch good people.

In the end I came to the following conclusions about the hard-to-understand aspects of both Mormonism and Christianity.

Christianity contains many tenets that appear to be contradictions. So does Mormonism. When I really looked closely I concluded that the apparant "contradictions" of Christianity were actually "paradoxes". [by paradox I mean "A seemingly contradictory statement that nonetheless is true"]

And, wherever Christianity contained a seeming contradiction, it turned out to be a hard-to-understand truth that actually shed light on a hard-to-understand aspect of real life.

The difficulty I had with Mormonism, however, was that to accept Mormonism required that I accept many actual contradictions, such as the ones I pointed about between Mormon teaching and the testimony of God's Word (in the KJV, which I still read, although not exclusively), and many more.

There was simply no way for me to make sense of the many times when I would be forced to choose between the scripture and one or more Mormon Leader or sacred writing. Sometimes there were multpile contradictions about the same thing.

There is much about the Mormon faith that is attractive, and much that contains strong elements of truth. Ultimately, however, there is too much internal inconsistency over matters I personally consider fundamental, and I believe that a deep search for truth, informed by the Holy Spirit's guidance, will eventually lead out of Mormonism, rather than deeper into it.

I have a good friend who became a Christian but whose parents and siblings are all Mormons. It is very hard for her, because her family does not see what her quest for truth has led her to.

Regardless of where it leads I appreciate and respect your committment to look deeper. Thanks for taking the time to talk about these matters. I will keep you in my prayers as you continue to seek answers.

Mike

[Bill McNeal]

Mike you said..........

"""There is much about the Mormon faith that is attractive, and much that contains strong elements of truth."""

Sorry friend, but the truth cannot be birthed from a lie. The mormon doctrine was built upon the lies of Joseph Smith, and Brigham Young. To suggest that Gods Truth lies within the teachings of these men borders on blasphemy, but in your defense I think you are just being decieved by Matt.

Shalom!

[Bill McNeal]

Here is a little history on the founding of the mormon cult.........


""""The Mormon movement began with "the prophet" Joseph Smith, Jr. in the year 1820. Joe (as he was known) was born to some rather strange parents in 1805. His mother, Lucy, was involved in occult practices and visions, while his father, Joseph, Sr., consumed much time with imaginary treasure digging (including the booty of Captain Kidd).

According to Mormon writings (Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith - History 1:1-25), on a day in 1820, Joe was praying in the woods when he received a vision from God the Father and Jesus. It was revealed to Joe that the church was in apostasy and he was the chosen one to launch a new dispensation.

Being unwilling to drop his current occupation of money-digging with his father (while using "peep stones" and "divining rods"), Joe put his "calling" on hold for three years. Then, according to his own account (Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith - History 1:29-54), he was paid a bedside visit by the angel Moroni in 1823. Moroni, who professed to be the glorified son of a man named Mormon (who had been dead 1400 years), told Joe about a book of golden plates which contained "the fulness of the everlasting Gospel." This book was said to have been buried at Cumorah Hill, near Palmyra, New York, some 1400 years earlier by the man named Mormon. Four years later (1827), Joe supposedly dug up the golden plates along with a gigantic pair of spectacles which he called "the Urim and Thummim." The spectacles were for translating the hieroglyphics on the plates. With the help of his only legal wife and a friend named Oliver Cowdery, Joe translated the plates and published the Book of Mormon in 1830. Later that same year, Joe, his wife, his brothers (Hyrum and Samuel), and Cowdery established the "Church of Jesus Christ," which is known today as the "Church of Jesus Christ of Later Day Saints."

The Book of Mormon contains many plagiarisms of the King James English (at least 25,000 words). This is strange since the plates were supposed to have been in the ground many centuries before the King James Bible was completed in 1611! The Book of Mormon also contains many errors such as claims of elephants in the Western Hemisphere and advanced metal producing capabilities in America before 400 A.D. (See Walter Martin's Kingdom of the Cults for a fine study in the errors of the Mormon Bible)

The Mormons, under Smith's command, turned out to be a rough bunch. Joe was a polygamist with at least twenty- seven wives (some say over 60 wives). The whole gang left New York for Ohio, and then moved to Missouri. The Missouri governor ran them out of the state, so they settled in Nauvoo, Illinois, and built the state's largest city. In 1844, Joe and Hyrum were thrown in jail. Then an angry mob stormed the jail and murdered them both. Naturally, this "martyrdom" insured the perpetual reverence of the great "prophet" Joseph Smith.

The "church" then split. The Smith family headed for Independence, Missouri and started what is now the "Recognized Church of Jesus Christ of Later Day Saints." However, the majority of Smith's followers chose Brigham Young as their new captain.

To escape U.S. laws, Young led the Mormons from Nauvoo to Salt Lake City in 1847 (which then belonged to Mexico). For the next thirty years, Young and his "saints" laid the foundation stones of the Mormon cult.

Little known to most Mormons, Young was a rather rough and ruthless character. In 1857, he commanded Bishop John D. Lee to murder a wagon train of over one hundred helpless non-Mormon immigrants. Twenty years later Lee was convicted and executed by the U.S. Government. Young escaped punishment, and his role in the Mountain Meadows Massacre has escaped the Mormon history books.

Young spent most of his "ministry" dodging the law to continue the immoral practice of polygamy. At the time of his death in 1877, Young had seventeen wives and fifty-six children.

Today the Mormon church is administrated by its "General Authorities." These authorities consist of the "First Presidency," the "Counsel of Twelve Apostles," the "First Quorum of the Seventy" and its presidency, the "Presiding Bishoprick," and the "Patriarch of the Church."

Male Mormons over twelve years of age are divided into priesthoods. The Aaronic order is the lesser priesthood, and the Melchizedek order is the higher.

The church is divided into thousands of "wards" and "stakes," with over 2000 branches and 180 missions, and over 5,000,000 members.

Mormons are very missionary-minded people, with over 26,000 active missionaries. However, much of this missionary army consists of young men and women in their early twenties who must serve two years in missionary work while supporting themselves.

The Mormon people of today are highly respected in our society, but there is nothing respectable about their doctrines. Some are as follows:

The Deity of Man Promoted

Mormons teach that man can become God, and that God was once a man:

"God himself, the Father of us all, is a glorified, exalted immortal resurrected man!" (Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, pp. 322-23, 517, 643)
"...God himself was once as we are now and is an exalted man and sits enthroned in yonder heavens..." (Journal of Discourses, V6, P3, 1844)
"As man is, God once was: as God is, man may become." (Lorenzo Snow, quoted in Milton R. Hunter, the Gospel Through the Ages, pp. 105-106)

This is plain and simple heresy. Nowhere does the Bible say or imply that God was ever a man, or that man can become God! Malachi 3:6 says, "For I am the LORD, I change not..." How could this be true if God was once a man? Genesis 1:1 states that God existed "in the beginning" before man was ever created. John 4:24 states that God is a "spirit," and Jesus tells us in John 1:18 that no man has seen God at any time. Numbers 23:19 says that "God is not a man that he should lie; neither the son of man that he should repent." God has always been God, and no one has ever "become" God.

Deity of Jesus Christ Denied

The Deity of Jesus Christ is a fundamental doctrine of Christianity, yet the Mormons deny this truth. Exalting man to "god status" is apparently alright, but Jesus Christ is not acknowledged as the eternal Son of God in the Mormon church. The Mormon Jesus was a preexisting spirit who was exalted, just as Mormon followers hope to be exalted someday.

God is a Trinity (I Jn. 5:7), and the second Member of that Trinity is the Lord Jesus Christ. John 1:1 says that "the Word was God," and John 1:14 tells us that "the Word was made flesh." Jesus Christ is the Word incarnate, and John 1:1 tells us that the Word was God; so Jesus Christ is God.

Jesus allowed Thomas to address Him as "My Lord and my God" in John 20:28. In Isaiah 9:6, He is called "The mighty God" and "The everlasting Father," and we read in Micah 5:2 that Jesus is "from everlasting."

Our Lord allowed people to worship him in John 10:38 and in Matthew 14:33, and since He is "God with us" (Mat. 1:23) He also has power to forgive sins (Mk. 2:5). Jesus Christ is clearly Deity, yet this doctrine is denied by the Mormons.

Multiple Authorities

The Bible declares, "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." (Isa. 8:20) However, the Mormon Church claims that other writings, such as the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith's writings are also authoritative. In fact, Joseph Smith taught his people to doubt the accuracy of the Bible: "...it was apparent that many important points touching the salvation of men, had been taken from the Bible, or lost before it was compiled." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 10)

Mormon Writings Support Polygamy

"...if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse another, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then he is justified; he cannot commit adultery...And if he have ten virgins given unto him by this law, he cannot commit adultery." (Doctrines and Covenants, 132:61, 62)

Jesus Christ held a slightly different view (Mark 10:6- 9). There is no way a man can be "one flesh" with more than one woman. A man and his wife are supposed to picture Christ and his church (Eph. 5:23-32), but this symbolism is shattered by the Mormon heresy of Polygamy.

True Church Theory

The Mormon book, The Pearl of Great Price, claims that all other Christian groups are "corrupt" and are an "abomination" in God's sight (Joseph Smith, 2:19). Such claims as this are based on the unscriptural assumption that the Lord Jesus Christ has a specific religious organization on the earth today, complete with a name, a membership, and a leadership, which makes up His "true church." This doctrine is found nowhere in God's word. Everyone who has received Christ as their Saviour is a member of His church, which is a spiritual body of born-again believers (Eph. 4:4; 5:23-32; Col. 1:18-24; Heb. 12:23; Rev. 19:7; 5:9-10; 21:9).

continued........

[Bill McNeal]

Other False Teachings

The Mormons deny the Trinity and the existence of a literal burning Hell, yet they promote polytheism (many gods), baptism for the dead, and the notion that Jesus and Satan were originally spirit brothers! Friend, make no mistake about it--Mormonism is a dangerous cult. In the eyes of man, the Mormons seem very respectable, but the light of God's word reveals the true wolves behind the sheep clothing. Jesus said, "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves." (Mat. 7:15) Don't look at their nice families, their clean-cut hair, and their friendly "missionaries." LOOK AT THEIR DOCTRINES! (I Tim. 4:1)

There is no way to cover all of the Mormon heresies in a tract this size. For further reading, we recommend our publication, The Bible Believer's Handbook of Heresies, which sheds light on many of the heresies being taught today in the name of our Saviour Jesus Christ.

Salvation through Works

Mormons believe that one's salvation is based on such good works as baptism, good deeds, missionary work, and following Mormon teachings. In The Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, justification by faith in Jesus Christ is called a "pernicious doctrine" twice and he states that it has been "an influence for evil." (pp. 107, 480) Bruce McConkie once stated at Brigham Young University that a personal relationship with Jesus Christ is "improper and perilous" (Church News, March 20, 1982, p. 5) """

I hope this helps the Sheep who are being courted by Satan.

Shalom!